• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Prohibition of Interest in Islam

tariqkhwaja

Jihad Against Terrorism
This is religion and economics at the same time. I am not sure if we can discuss this on a religious forum. But since Islam is the religion that strongly forbids usury so ...

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) pointed out that the reason usury was forbidden was because money does not automatically increase in value. Money is invested and the invested might yield a profit or a loss. However, in a system based on interest lending money ALWAYS brings profits. Which is unrealistic.
So a lender lends money to a borrower. The borrower invests, gets a profit. The lender is repaid and the profit is used to pay the interest. But what if the borrower invests and makes a loss. How come the lender still gets more money than he initially lent?

Ponder on this reasoning and one finds out the horrors of interest and what they are doing to the world we live in today!

This posts leaks of plaigarism from Ahmadiyya Muslim Community - Al Islam Online - Official Website.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The lender renders a service to the borrower. The interest is the price of the service.
Moneylending is not a sure thing. It does not always bring profit. There is always the chance that the unfortunate borrower will be unable to repay both the loan and the interest. Both parties are gambling.

Usury is not synonymous with interest. Usury is exorbitant interest. Usurers are usually predators taking advantage of the foolish or desperate.
 

tariqkhwaja

Jihad Against Terrorism
What happens if I (or a big company) borrow from a bank and declare bankruptcy and am unable to repay?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nothing. The bank writes off the loan as part of the price of doing business.

Your declaration of bankruptcy confers legal protection from creditors.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This is religion and economics at the same time. I am not sure if we can discuss this on a religious forum. But since Islam is the religion that strongly forbids usury so ...
Christianity used to as well, but it's been de-emphasized in the past few centuries.

Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) pointed out that the reason usury was forbidden was because money does not automatically increase in value. Money is invested and the invested might yield a profit or a loss. However, in a system based on interest lending money ALWAYS brings profits. Which is unrealistic.
When I lived in a rented home, I payed a fixed amount every month for the rent. In months where the house didn't need anything more than cutting the grass, it was the same. In the month when our basement flooded, my rent was the same, even though the repairs probably cost more than several months' worth of rent. How is this different?

Seyorni's right: interest is like a "rental fee" for money.

So a lender lends money to a borrower. The borrower invests, gets a profit. The lender is repaid and the profit is used to pay the interest. But what if the borrower invests and makes a loss. How come the lender still gets more money than he initially lent?
Say you own a furniture store, and you lease a number of trucks from a leasing company. Business is bad and you lose money on the store. Should this affect how much you owe the leasing company for the use of their trucks?

They arranged for you to use their property (i.e. the trucks) for a time for a fee (i.e. lease payments). Regardless of what you do with those trucks or how much money you make (or don't make) with them, they've still provided you with a service that you agreed to.

How is interest any different? It's still a voluntary arrangement for use of property (i.e. the money of a loan) for a time for a fee (i.e. interest).

Ponder on this reasoning and one finds out the horrors of interest and what they are doing to the world we live in today!
There are unscrupulous money lenders who take advantage of people (I'd include many "pay day loan" places in that category), but there are unscrupulous people in all types of business.

Personally, I don't think it makes any more sense to condemn the rental of money than it does to condemn the rental of trucks or apartments.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Nothing. The bank writes off the loan as part of the price of doing business.

Your declaration of bankruptcy confers legal protection from creditors.
True, but don't the Jews that control the banking world also send out paramilitary hit squads to deal with those who default on loans? Surely there must be something to this rumor. :flirt:
 
  • Like
Reactions: kai

tariqkhwaja

Jihad Against Terrorism
Money is not a commodity like a truck or a house. We cannot treat it as such.

When you rent a house you pay a rent. The value of the house depreciates or appreciates accordingly. So when the house is returned to the owner he gets the value attached to the house which might be more or less than before. Paying the rent makes sense because we are giving a commodity.

The same with a truck. There is a degree of depreciation that is accounted for by the rent.
However, money, itself is not a commodity. Money is invested and upon invested you get more or less of it. But if money is assumed to automatically increase in value all the time ... that just makes no sense whatsoever.

When lenders deposit money in banks they ALWAYS get a profit in return. The whole economy might be suffering a recession and the whole economy might be making an overall loss but the lenders, somehow, still get more money back. Unless the borrower goes bankrupt and simply can not repay anything. It just makes no sense.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Money is not a commodity like a truck or a house. We cannot treat it as such.
How do you figure? Money's sole purpose is to be a commodity: it is an instrument of value used for exchange and trade. There is no other reason for it to exist.

And in the case of a residential tenancy or a truck lease, the commodity isn't the truck or house itself, it's the use of the thing. When you rent a truck, the thing you're buying isn't the truck itself - you're buying time, distance or some other measure of usage... in any case, you aren't buying any concrete, physical "thing".

When you rent a house you pay a rent. The value of the house depreciates or appreciates accordingly. So when the house is returned to the owner he gets the value attached to the house which might be more or less than before. Paying the rent makes sense because we are giving a commodity.
What commodity, exactly?

The same with a truck. There is a degree of depreciation that is accounted for by the rent.
Rent is not just based on the depreciation of the truck. It's based on the value of usage of the truck according to market forces.

The lessor certainly hopes that the market rate will be enough to cover the cost of depreciation, but also overhead costs (leasing of trucks has to pay for the company's office, staff and expenses) and profit.

And profit is important. Without profit, there's no incentive to start the business in the first place. The business owner has to have some reason to choose to start a business (with all the risks that this entails) rather than keeping his money tucked away safe under his bed where he won't lose any but won't gain any either... otherwise, the business doesn't come into existence in the first place.

However, money, itself is not a commodity. Money is invested and upon invested you get more or less of it. But if money is assumed to automatically increase in value all the time ... that just makes no sense whatsoever.
Yes, it does make sense... or at least as much as it does to lease out an apartment for a year at a fixed monthly rate without knowing with certainty what your expenses associated with the rental will be.

There's risk, certainly. And the person shouldering the risk usually gets paid a premium to do so. That's why you have a range of investment choices from guaranteed, government-backed accounts with low interest to speculative, high-interest accounts that are not guaranteed at all.

When lenders deposit money in banks they ALWAYS get a profit in return. The whole economy might be suffering a recession and the whole economy might be making an overall loss but the lenders, somehow, still get more money back. Unless the borrower goes bankrupt and simply can not repay anything. It just makes no sense.
Personally, I think it makes sense: the lender and borrower both figure out terms that they think will work to their advantage, and come to an agreement. There's risk involved for both, but they both try to minimize this risk and maximize their anticipated gains.

I see this a fundamentally no different than other activities that Islam apparently has no problem with (AFAIK).

Here's an example from my own past: I used to work as an estimator for an industrial air conditioning company. For repairs, some of our clients would pay us on a time and material basis (i.e. if the repair technician works 3 hours, the client pays for 3 hours, plus the cost of parts at a set markup), others preferred to have a set price arranged in advance.

The problem (at least from the estimator's point of view) with a set price, though, is that often, the time to do a repair can vary wildly. Finding a bad electical connection, for example, can mean checking every connection one-by-one until the bad one is found. The technician could be lucky and find the bad one right away, or it could take a whole day of searching.

If you know that a job could take anywhere from 2 to 10 hours, how do you price it? What you end up having to do is make your best guess for time (e.g. between 2 and 10, maybe assume the midpoint of 6), and then add on a premium to compensate for the additional risk you're taking on (say 2 hours). This means you end up charging the client a fixed price of 8 hours. 75% of the time, this is fine and 8 hours is more than enough time to do the job. 25% of the time, though, the technician takes longer and you lose money on the job. The client pays the same either way.

Effectively, the client has two choices:

- pay on a time and material basis, take on the risk of the project, but generally pay less (assuming your contractor is honest)
- pay at a set price, have certainty of what the cost will be, and generally pay extra for the privilege.

Risk exists either way; the difference is just either shouldering it yourself or paying someone else to take it on for you.

It's exactly the same for interest-bearing investments. The banks engage in business and investments that they believe can make them money but have some measure of risk associated with them. The banks need money to make these investments, and are willing to pay money (i.e. interest) to account holders to use it. How much they will pay you depends on how much of their risk you're willing to take on; you provide a service to them and are compensated for it.

Just as the person who leases out a truck gets paid by the lessee, the person who lends out money gets paid by the borrower. I see no moral distinction between them at all. Both money lending and truck leasing can be done in honourable and dishonourable ways.
 

tariqkhwaja

Jihad Against Terrorism
Oh please don't be like that ... I really do not know what it is that I misstated.

Is it not an economic reality that money is invested and returns as either a profit or a loss?

Is it not an economic reality that lenders still somehow always get a profit until the borrower has been completely swiped of all his/her money and is bankrupt or (in the more unlikely case) unless the debt has been completely repaid?

The capitalist system is interest based and interest is the key to development in such a system. But I am disputing this method of development on the basis that the interest based system is simply unrealistic. And this lack of respect for reality backfires.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Oh please don't be like that ... I really do not know what it is that I misstated.
I am sorry, but we get quite a lot of examples of supposed Islamic superiority to other forms of doing pretty much anything, here on RF. I assumed your perspective was simply, "more of the same".

Is it not an economic reality that money is invested and returns as either a profit or a loss?
No, it was your observation that money itself should not be used as a commodity. Forgive me, but in theory, absolutely anthing can become a commodity. Also, the notion of interest was a bit strange. I don't think very many people resent interest, but in general, most also draw the line at obscene levels of accrued interest. The housing market debacle in the US is a point of interest (no pun intended) here. When parties adopt predatory practises to reap benefits they should be thrown in jail. I am puzzled why this has not happened in the US as of yet considering this has resulted in a staggering blow to the US economy.
 

tariqkhwaja

Jihad Against Terrorism
I assumed your perspective was simply, "more of the same".
Yeah ... a lot of heat against Islam here ...

Forgive me, but in theory, absolutely anthing can become a commodity.
Of course, anything CAN be used as a commodity. But Islam tells us that money MUST not be used as a commodity otherwise it plays havoc with the economy.

No people do not resent interest because the ability to borrow from your future is very attractive. Man's ego tells him that tomorrow is another day and until it comes lets not worry about it and make a better today.

The key point being that money does not automatically increase in value. The first evil of such a system is that the richer person ALWAYS gets profits while the poorer borrower has the burden of ALWAYS making a profit. How unfair is that?

How can any businessman be expected to make unending profits? Reality is bound to set in sooner or later and the poor borrower is bound to make a loss sooner or later. A system based on interest ensures that sooner or later, money flows from the poor to the rich. This happens in the world we live in on an individual and international scale. How unfair?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Of course, anything CAN be used as a commodity. But Islam tells us that money MUST not be used as a commodity otherwise it plays havoc with the economy.
What definition are you using for the word "commodity" that excludes money?

As far as I'm concerned, a commodity is all that money is: it's an item of value that's traded for other items of value. What else can it be?
 

tariqkhwaja

Jihad Against Terrorism
a commodity is all that money is: it's an item of value that's traded for other items of value.

Exactly ... money itself does not have any value ... it is just a tool for trade. This is the fine but extremely important distinction. Money is just paper that is backed by a certain amount of gold by the government.
So suppose that I lend money to a person. And charge the lending of the money. The person invests the money, makes a profit, and gives me the charge. Fine and well. But what happens when the person borrowing makes a loss. SOMEHOW more money still goes to the lender.

The key point to understand here is that money is a tool for trade and automatically increasing the value of a tool of trade is unrealistic. The gold backing the money does not automatically increase in value. Then why should lending money automatically increase the value of the money for the lender.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Exactly ... money itself does not have any value ... it is just a tool for trade. This is the fine but extremely important distinction. Money is just paper that is backed by a certain amount of gold by the government.
In most cases, I think you'll find that currencies aren't based on the gold standard any more, but I disagree with your main point: money does have value. People do place value on it... if they didn't, they wouldn't give up valuable goods in exchange for it.

Now... maybe you mean that money shouldn't have value, but that's a different matter. People ascribe value to it, therefore it does have value, at least in terms of the marketplace, and I'm not sure what other measure of value would be relevant to this discussion.

Anyhow, the intrinsic value of the bills, coins or electronic digits that represent money aren't what matter. They're just items set up for convenience; you could still have interest even under a barter system: if (to pull numbers out of the air) a goat is worth six chickens, me saying "If you give me four chickens today, I'll give you a goat a month from now" also represents a loan at interest.

So suppose that I lend money to a person. And charge the lending of the money. The person invests the money, makes a profit, and gives me the charge. Fine and well. But what happens when the person borrowing makes a loss. SOMEHOW more money still goes to the lender.
Yes, exactly the same as when a person leases a truck to start a delivery service, he owes the lessor his payments whether or not the delivery service makes money. A service has been rendered in either case, and payment is due for that service.

The key point to understand here is that money is a tool for trade and automatically increasing the value of a tool of trade is unrealistic. The gold backing the money does not automatically increase in value. Then why should lending money automatically increase the value of the money for the lender.
Because the person who owns the money could choose to not make any additional money with it at virtually zero risk just by keeping it in a safe. If use of that money is of value to you, then you'll need to provide some incentive to the owner of it if you want to have use of it.

If you were to borrow money, this would represent several costs to the lender:

- there is a risk that you won't repay the money, either partially or fully.
- there are direct costs associated with loaning you the money (e.g. record-keeping, tax complication, hassle, etc.).
- the time it takes to handle your loan represents time that the lender could have used for other purposes.
- the money you borrow represents money that is unavailable to the lender for other profit-making endeavours.

In order to make it worth the lender's while, they have to have some reasonable expectation that all these costs will be covered. I don't understand why you have an issue with someone doing this. Like I said, I don't see it as any morally or ethically different from leasing a vehicle or renting an apartment.
 

tariqkhwaja

Jihad Against Terrorism
See let me try to put it another way:
Borrowing a truck, itself, allows me to use that truck. In the end if I return the truck in sufficiently good shape and I do not have to pay the rent anymore. The moment I am not able to pay the rent I can just return the truck. Unless I have a major accident but if I drive safely I will be fine.

But money is different. I invest money. And investing money inevitably leads to a profit or a loss no matter how safe the investment. If I have a profit I can return the money along with the payment. But if I earn a loss then returning the same amount of money becomes an impossibility unless I sacrifice some property of mine. So in an economy that runs on interests, continous profitability is expected. But profitability is not always possible. And all those who lose (the poorer people who borrowed money to invest) become poorer overall.

Think of it as gaming rounds:
Round 1: Most earn profits but some earn losses. The people with the losses get so poor they can't continue.
Round 2: A percentage of the initial profit earners also earns losses. And some of them are not able to continue anymore.
Until Round 13: when very few make it out of their borrowing while a majority of the initial investors are inevitably made poorer.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
See let me try to put it another way:
Borrowing a truck, itself, allows me to use that truck. In the end if I return the truck in sufficiently good shape and I do not have to pay the rent anymore.
Depends on the terms of your lease. If you sign a 3-year lease for a truck but return it after only six months, you would likely be required to pay some sort of penalty.

The moment I am not able to pay the rent I can just return the truck. Unless I have a major accident but if I drive safely I will be fine.
Yes, the truck may be fine, but you may not be able to do what you wanted to do with it. If a business pays money for an expenditure (e.g. leasing a delivery truck), it's with the expectation that the expenditure will help them to make money, or will allow them to carry on their business, which will make them money. The lease costs the same every month regardless of how much money the truck allows you to make.

But money is different. I invest money. And investing money inevitably leads to a profit or a loss no matter how safe the investment. If I have a profit I can return the money along with the payment. But if I earn a loss then returning the same amount of money becomes an impossibility unless I sacrifice some property of mine. So in an economy that runs on interests, continous profitability is expected. But profitability is not always possible. And all those who lose (the poorer people who borrowed money to invest) become poorer overall.
Incorrect: continuous profitability isn't always expected. What is expected is that lending money has certain direct costs, opportunity costs, hassles and risks associated with it, so it will take a certain incentive to get lenders to part with their money, regardless of what the borrower does with it once he has it.

The borrower has the option of not borrowing the money.

Think of it as gaming rounds:
Round 1: Most earn profits but some earn losses. The people with the losses get so poor they can't continue.
Round 2: A percentage of the initial profit earners also earns losses. And some of them are not able to continue anymore.
Until Round 13: when very few make it out of their borrowing while a majority of the initial investors are inevitably made poorer.
Except that interest is not the only source of wealth, and most people do not borrow their way into bankruptcy.
 

a_student

Member
I get your point, tariqkhwaja. He's saying that in lending money, the lender should take on more risk. Lenders have no problem handing out loans when they know they're going to get a bigger return every time. Meanwhile, the poorer person, who had to borrow the money in the first place has to pay interest regardless of if they make more money or less money. So the rich get richer. He is showing how the economy would be better off without usury. Instead of the poor people, who are in a hole and need to borrow money, getting themselves more in a hole while the rich people, who have enough money to lend to the poor people, thrive even more, what if there was actually compassion in lending? Instead of, "Oh you invested the money and lost it? Tough luck, we still want all the money we lent you and then some." Thus the lender makes his money while the borrower has to bear the loss and still has the loss of interest paid to lender on top of it. I must say it is a noble concept, but it will never work here in America because, unfortunately, it goes against everything this capitalistic society stands for.
 
Top