Tranquil Servant
Was M.I.A for a while
What are the characteristics and/or the prophesies that define who the messiah is? What is the Messiah's role and why is the Messiah important?
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The prophesied Messiah
- Thread starter Tranquil Servant
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
This is the Bahai view on Christ:
Afterwards Christ appeared, saying, “I am born of the Holy Spirit.” If it is easy today, among Christians, to acknowledge the truth of this claim, at the time it was very difficult. Thus, according to the text of the Gospel, the Pharisees said, “Is this not the son of Joseph of Nazareth, whom we know? How then can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”[2]
Briefly, this Man, Who appeared lowly in the eyes of all, arose nonetheless with such power as to abrogate a fifteen-hundred-year-old Dispensation, notwithstanding that the least deviation from its laws would expose the offender to grave danger and bring about his death and annihilation.
Moreover, in the time of Christ the general morals and manners of the Israelites had become entirely confused and corrupted, and Israel had fallen into a state of utmost degradation, misery, and bandage. At one time they fell captive to the Chaldeans and the Persians; at another they were under the yoke of the Assyrian Empire. One day they became the subjects and vassals of the Greeks; another they were subjugated and humiliated by the Romans.
This young Man, Christ, through an extraordinary power abrogated the ancient Mosaic Law and undertook to reform the morals of the people. He once again laid the foundation of eternal honour for the Israelites—nay, He undertook to rehabilitate the fortunes of the entire human race—and spread abroad teachings that were not reserved for Israel alone but formed the basis for the universal happiness of human society.
The first to arise to destroy Him were the Israelites—His own people and kindred. And to outward seeming they indeed overcame Him and reduced Him to utter abasement, till at last they crowned Him with the crown of thorns and crucified Him. But this Man, while outwardly immersed in deepest affliction, proclaimed: “This Sun will rise, this Light will shine resplendent, My grace will encompass the world, and all Mine enemies will be confounded.” And even as He spoke, so it came to pass, for all the kings of the earth were unable to resist Him. Nay, all their standards were cast down, while the standard of that Wronged One was raised to the loftiest heights.
Is this at all possible in accordance with the rules of human reason? No, by God! Then it is clear and evident that this glorious Being was a true Educator of the world of humanity and that He was aided and assisted by a divine power.
Abdulbaha, Some answered questions
I do consider the prophesied Messiah to more universal than any specific than any one religion as the Christ of Christianity, and part of the process of the spiritual evolution of humanity through progressive Revelation through the entire history of humanity, and for that matter all worlds and universes in our physical existence,
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There are certain prophecies which must be fulfilled by the messiah. It's an all or nothing deal. Either the man fulfills them and he is the messiah, or he doesn't fulfill them and he isn't the messiah. For example, I can't say, "Hey I'm the messiah and I will fulfill these prophecies the next time I come." I mean, any charlatan can do that.
You'll notice that I don't list suffering for us. This is because Isaiah 53 is not a messianic prophecy. If you read the chapters preceding, the servant is clearly identified as Israel, so that when you get to chapter 53 you already know that the servant being discussed is Israel. There are certain words in the chapter that Christian bibles mistranslate, but that's getting into too much minutiae.
The Messiah will:
- be a descendant of King David. This necessarily excludes adoptive/foster parents. There is also a descendant that was cursed by God and the messiah cannot be descended from him.
- will rule from the throne in Jerusalem
- will bring peace on earth
- will bring all the Jews back to Eretz Yisrael
In times past, Jews have perhaps been more messianic. Certainly in the second temple era, it was a hotbed of messianic fervor. But today, except for certain groups such as Chabad, the coming messiah is really an afterthought. We just don't think about it much. It will happen when it happens. Our concern is with obedience to Hashem right here and now, and making the world into a better place. Some Jews would say that we are doing our part to bring about the messianic era by these actions, and that this is all we need to worry about, that the rest will take care of itself.
The Lubavitchers (Chabad) are a notable exception to this. They truly believe that the Rebbe IS the messiah, and that he will rise from the dead. However, unlike Christians, they do not believe that he is God. Chabad may be "out there" in their messianic views, but they are still firmly Jewish, and we love them to death.
It is not really the messiah that is important, but the messianic era. The messiah is simply the ruler that will keep order during this era. In fact, until Israel chose to have a king, there would have been no messiah.
It is also important to note that there are those Jewish groups which simply don't believe in the Messiah except as a kind of figurative idea. For them, the messianic era is what we ourselves will bring about. Reform Judaism teaches that "In partnership with God, it is up to us to make the world into a place of peace and justice, and that we cannot wait nor do we expect a personal Messiah." https://reformjudaism.org/practice/ask-rabbi/do-reform-jews-believe-messiah
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
First off, it must be noted that Judaism and 'Messianic Xianity', or non xianity variation, that isn't Judaism, necessarily, do not share all the same prophetic references.
What makes the belief that Jesus is the 'Messiah', is because the Son of Man, ushers in the Messianic age, and is said to reign thusly. Hence Messiah by default, by being the Son of Man.
This is why I started a discussion about whether Jesus actually called Himself, 'the Son of Man'. In Scripture Jesus tends to say 'the Son of Man,', not ,,,me the messiah'''. Note the theological difference between a 'Son of Man', referred to as the aspect in a deific triune, Elohim, God, and simply 'Messiah'.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Judaism and Messianic Judaism should never be confused with one another. Messianic Judaism is a SYNCRETISTIC religion which blends CHRISTIANITY and Judaism. It is not Judaism.
Elohim is simply the Hebrew word for God. The question of whether Jesus is God is really a separate question than what is the definition of the messiah.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The thing is, Jesus did NOT usher in the messianic age, and does NOT reign from Jerusalem. This is precisely why Jews reject him as the messiah.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
It isn't a separate subject, though, because of the prophetic beliefs regarding such, ie ushering in the Messianic age, so forth. So, they cannot be separated as subjects, religiously.
That's nice, however does not really refute anything I wrote.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
@Disciple of Jesus
"Like unto a son of man" is an expression used in Daniel's vision in Daniel 7:13-14. The entire passage goes a bit like this, paraphrasing. And I saw this animal which was this kingdom and that animal which was that kingdom. But THEN I saw what was like the son of man. Given the CONTEXT the son of man would have to be a KINGDOM. The only kingdom it could possibly refer to is Israel. It does not refer to a person.
"Like unto a son of man" is an expression used in Daniel's vision in Daniel 7:13-14. The entire passage goes a bit like this, paraphrasing. And I saw this animal which was this kingdom and that animal which was that kingdom. But THEN I saw what was like the son of man. Given the CONTEXT the son of man would have to be a KINGDOM. The only kingdom it could possibly refer to is Israel. It does not refer to a person.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There is NO prophecy that the messiah will be God, therefore the subject of whether Jesus is God is irrelevant to the OP.
Excuse me, but you are claiming that Jesus is the messiah. Then you claim that the definition of the messiah is one who ushers in the messianic age and thus rules. If Jesus doesn't meet that definition, then yes, I have refuted what you just wrote.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
You don't use that as prophecy, though.
Jesus says 'when the Son of Man comes', before which many kingdoms, kings, false prophets occur...it's a long time in the future, in other words, from the time when Jesus said this.You can interpret that any way you want, however 'Israel', does have more than one interpretation, as well.
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Tranquil Servant
Was M.I.A for a while
The meaning and interpretation of Daniel's vision concerning the "Son of Man" Daniel 7:13-14 is explained by (likely) an angel....
Daniel 7:23-27
23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it.
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.
Also Daniel 7:14 is pretty clear
.....14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
BTW....The NIV of the Bible has a footnote for the phrase "Son of Man".......
**The Aramaic phrase bar enash means human being. The phrase son of man is retained here because of its use in the New Testament as a title of Jesus, probably based largely on this verse.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Because it's NOT.
At least not a prophecy of OUR future.
If you take the story literally, it predicts four kingdoms that will rule followed by the return of Israel's independence.
Scholars believe that Daniel was not actually written by Daniel, but someone who lived during the Maccabean era, after the desecration of the Temple, but before the Victory of the Jews. It was meant to encourage their insurrection against the Greeks.
Tranquil Servant
Was M.I.A for a while
I just wanted to share this to see what you guys think and I posted this in another thread I started...
Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
What do you guys think about this?.....
Isaiah 35 ►
The Glory of Zion
(Matthew 9:32-34; Mark 7:31-37)
1 The wilderness and the land will be glad;
the desert will rejoice and blossom like a rose.
2 It will bloom abundantly
and even rejoice with joy and singing.
The glory of Lebanon will be given it,
the splendor of Carmel and Sharon.
They will see the glory of the LORD,
the splendor of our God.
3 Strengthen the limp hands
and steady the feeble knees!
4 Say to those with anxious hearts:
“Be strong, do not fear!
Behold, your God will come with vengeance.
With divine retribution He will come to save you.”
5 Then the eyes of the blind will be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
6 Then the lame will leap like a deer
and the mute tongue will shout for joy.
For waters will gush forth in the wilderness,
and streams in the desert.
7 The parched ground will become a pool,
the thirsty land springs of water.
In the haunt where jackals once lay,
there will be grass and reeds and papyrus.
8 And there will be a highway
called the Way of Holiness.
The unclean will not travel it,
only those who walk in that Way—
and fools will not stray onto it.
9 No lion will be there,
and no vicious beast will go up on it.
Such will not be found there,
but the redeemed will walk upon it,
10 and the ransomed of the LORD will return.
They will enter Zion with singing,
crowned with everlasting joy.
Joy and gladness will overtake them,
and sorrow and sighing will flee.
Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
What do you guys think about this?
.....Isaiah 35 ►
The Glory of Zion
(Matthew 9:32-34; Mark 7:31-37)
1 The wilderness and the land will be glad;
the desert will rejoice and blossom like a rose.
2 It will bloom abundantly
and even rejoice with joy and singing.
The glory of Lebanon will be given it,
the splendor of Carmel and Sharon.
They will see the glory of the LORD,
the splendor of our God.
3 Strengthen the limp hands
and steady the feeble knees!
4 Say to those with anxious hearts:
“Be strong, do not fear!
Behold, your God will come with vengeance.
With divine retribution He will come to save you.”
5 Then the eyes of the blind will be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
6 Then the lame will leap like a deer
and the mute tongue will shout for joy.
For waters will gush forth in the wilderness,
and streams in the desert.
7 The parched ground will become a pool,
the thirsty land springs of water.
In the haunt where jackals once lay,
there will be grass and reeds and papyrus.
8 And there will be a highway
called the Way of Holiness.
The unclean will not travel it,
only those who walk in that Way—
and fools will not stray onto it.
9 No lion will be there,
and no vicious beast will go up on it.
Such will not be found there,
but the redeemed will walk upon it,
10 and the ransomed of the LORD will return.
They will enter Zion with singing,
crowned with everlasting joy.
Joy and gladness will overtake them,
and sorrow and sighing will flee.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Zion & Israel always have a Spiritual meaning, even if they can be connected to actual places. Those are very interesting verses, there is some meaning that presents itself right off, however there seems to be other meaning, there, as well. Takes further consideration.I just wanted to share this to see what you guys think and I posted this in another thread I started...
Is Jesus the Son of God or God?
What do you guys think about this?
Isaiah 35 ►
The Glory of Zion
(Matthew 9:32-34; Mark 7:31-37)
1 The wilderness and the land will be glad;
the desert will rejoice and blossom like a rose.
2 It will bloom abundantly
and even rejoice with joy and singing.
The glory of Lebanon will be given it,
the splendor of Carmel and Sharon.
They will see the glory of the LORD,
the splendor of our God.
3 Strengthen the limp hands
and steady the feeble knees!
4 Say to those with anxious hearts:
“Be strong, do not fear!
Behold, your God will come with vengeance.
With divine retribution He will come to save you.”
5 Then the eyes of the blind will be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
6 Then the lame will leap like a deer
and the mute tongue will shout for joy.
For waters will gush forth in the wilderness,
and streams in the desert.
7 The parched ground will become a pool,
the thirsty land springs of water.
In the haunt where jackals once lay,
there will be grass and reeds and papyrus.
8 And there will be a highway
called the Way of Holiness.
The unclean will not travel it,
only those who walk in that Way—
and fools will not stray onto it.
9 No lion will be there,
and no vicious beast will go up on it.
Such will not be found there,
but the redeemed will walk upon it,
10 and the ransomed of the LORD will return.
They will enter Zion with singing,
crowned with everlasting joy.
Joy and gladness will overtake them,
and sorrow and sighing will flee.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
I notice that almost all the longest 'super epic' psalms are prophetic about the messiah
The super epic psalms How the Longest Psalms Point to Jesus
The suggests the poet of the ages, David, and his book point strongly to Jesus.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Matthew 9:34
Note that the power of Jesus is either from the 'satan', or divine. There is no other option, because the Pharisees note the power.
Note that the power of Jesus is either from the 'satan', or divine. There is no other option, because the Pharisees note the power.
Agreed
I believe the concept of the Messiah rules is different than that of the Jewish or the Christian view.
The Messiah comes to lay a Snare & place the Curse on Judah (those who praise God) & Israel (those who reign with God) to remove all the Ravenous immoral beings, who don't pay attention to morality & context, before being religious.
The Messiah is the Right Arm of the Lord, interacting with mankind in the form of David.
The Messiah brings in the Harvest, and removes the ungodly; whilst creating a time of peace on earth, and a kingdom that is ever lasting.
When we detail prophecy about the Messiah specifically, there are only verses in Daniel 9:26, where the Messiah is put to death, and there is an additional yod on the word blemish in Isaiah 52:14, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, making it about the Messiah.
[GALLERY=media, 8710][/GALLERY]
This makes it Isaiah is paraphrasing David specifically.
Isaiah 52:13-14 Behold, my servant will deal wisely. He will be exalted and lifted up, and will be very high. Just as many were astonished by him, for I anointed him more than others appearance, and his form more than a son of man.
Psalms 89:19-21 Then you spoke in vision to your saints, and said, “I have given strength to the warrior. I have exalted a young man from the people. (20) I have found David, my servant. I have anointed him with my holy oil, (21) with whom my hand shall be established. My arm will also strengthen him.
Isaiah 52:10 indicates that YHVH's spirit of Salvation is put into the vessel & branch from David, and thus bringing people to repentance in the Lord's name - Yehoshua.
In my opinion.
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whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
I can think of many example where an old testament prophesy points to Jesus as God somehow
Psalm 68 is about the Ark of the covenant in the Old testament and about Jesus in Ephesians and the Ark represents God's pressents
Psalm 45 is about the wedding of a Jewish king and used in Hebrews about Jesus saying in Hebrews 1:8 They throne Oh God is forever and ever and the righteous septer is the septer of your kingdome in the New Testament
Zechariah speaks of God being insulted at being valued at 30 pieces of silver yet in the New Testament applied to Jesus with Judas betrayal