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The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
The christian bible has absolutely no authority in judaism. You are welcome to ignore the jewish scriptures.

In fact, I would rather christians ignore jewish scriptures than twist it around to fit their beliefs.

I would not call myself Christian, nor my own rendition of the Bible as that either. But I never said it had authority over Judaism. One cannot ignore the OT as this is where the NT comes from, both reveal the Mashiyach that you are still waiting for.
And we do not twist anything, we see it in its true meaning, at least sometimes I hope. We all have our own interpretations, it should not be necessarily be seen as twisted. I'm looking at the 613 commands at the moment, and there is in that many verses which are twisted to the point of not being recognisable.

Why do you not keep all the law anyway now? Is it the Temple?
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Are you referring to when jesus said to kill anyone who doesn't accept him as king or the love shown by him saying that no matter how good of a person someone is if he doesn't accept jesus then he is going to hell?

Which indication of love please?

good point, long story, but more connected with the end judgement that man's judgment
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Isn't it just amazing that we get a parade of these people in here to tell us how to interpret the scriptures we wrote, interpreted, commented on, and translated into other languages, the "education" of which they undoubtedly must have received from sitting back and reading their little English-language Bible while having no background in any serious theology or Torah study? Oh ya, we are just so ignorant that we could never top that. :rolleyes:

I would not say that you are ignorant
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I think I already addressed that.

I said that the examples I provided aren't the only men made additions.

So you think it is an interpolation? So is most of the Bible. It matters not, it is the end result that counts I think
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The fact that G-D can not have human manifestations, and no one can see G-D and live, is a clear proof that jesus was not G-D.

I believe there is no proof that God can't have human manifestations and inferential logic that He does.

1. Man's spirit enters a body.

2. Man is not more capable thatn God

3. Therefore God can enter a body.

I believe no-one can see God at all. All one can see is a manifestation of God. God is everywhere so He can be seen in His manifestation but not in His universal entirety because our physical bodies will not stretch that far and live.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
To me, I think it is far more likely that the apostles thought that Jesus was of God but not God.

I believe there isn't much evidence of what the apostles thought, so one could specualte all kinds of wild ideas. I go by what Jesus said and I agree He could not have said what He said as a blasphemy and still have done the miracles because God would not support a blasphemer.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Anyways, where is the answer that they saw God? did I miss it: they saw him, appeared to him, saw his feet, ate with him, saw his back
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe there isn't much evidence of what the apostles thought, so one could specualte all kinds of wild ideas. I go by what Jesus said and I agree He could not have said what He said as a blasphemy and still have done the miracles because God would not support a blasphemer.

When we read the scriptures, what we are reading are the accounts of people, many of whom never actually knew or heard the people they quote, so we have to be cautious about accepting any rendition as being 100% accurate. I am not a scriptural literalist, not only with the Christian scriptures but the Torah and the Tanakh as well.

The reality is that we can't be absolutely certain of what Jesus said-- or Moses, or Mohammed, or the Buddha, ... However, it's very difficult to me to imagine Jesus strutting around claiming to be God and attracting Jewish followers as this runs so counter to what we traditionally have been taught. If Jesus literally was God, and since the apostles we can assume say him face to face, you can see where there's going to be a conflict with the verses.

Also, to repeat myself in an earlier post, what we do read Jesus supposedly saying in the gospels is to refer to "the Father" as being a different "person" than he (check back at a previous post to see some of the verses I quote to show this). How can it make one iota of sense to have Jesus praying to "the Father" if he indeed is God? OTOH, if the apostles believed that Jesus was of God, then we can make sense of these verses.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I believe there is no proof that God can't have human manifestations and inferential logic that He does.

1. Man's spirit enters a body.

2. Man is not more capable thatn God

3. Therefore God can enter a body.

I believe no-one can see God at all. All one can see is a manifestation of God. God is everywhere so He can be seen in His manifestation but not in His universal entirety because our physical bodies will not stretch that far and live.

IYO, what other manifestations of God has there been or currently are? Whatever your answer, what is your opinion based on? How certain are you that your answer(s) is/are correct?

Hindus teach that we all are manifestations of God in the sense that God is What made us and therefore must be us to a large extent. The same be can also be said of animals and even inanimate objects as God made them all and, therefore, must be in them as well. Do you believe they are wrong? How can you tell?

The above are really sort of rhetorical questions that are going beyond the scope of the OP, but my point is that the issue of "manifestations" that you used has significant implications and possibilities. If you feel that Jesus is a manifestation of God, then it does beg the question of how many other manifestations are there, plus how can we tell what may be or may not be a manifestation of God?
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
IYO, what other manifestations of God has there been or currently are? Whatever your answer, what is your opinion based on? How certain are you that your answer(s) is/are correct?

Hindus teach that we all are manifestations of God in the sense that God is What made us and therefore must be us to a large extent. The same be can also be said of animals and even inanimate objects as God made them all and, therefore, must be in them as well. Do you believe they are wrong? How can you tell?

The above are really sort of rhetorical questions that are going beyond the scope of the OP, but my point is that the issue of "manifestations" that you used has significant implications and possibilities. If you feel that Jesus is a manifestation of God, then it does beg the question of how many other manifestations are there, plus how can we tell what may be or may not be a manifestation of God?
What happens when your Messiah manifests himself? How will you be sure, ask for a sign perhaps??
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
What happens when your Messiah manifests himself? How will you be sure, ask for a sign perhaps??

That's easy. He will fulfill the messianic prohesies in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37.

They are

  • World peace
  • All the jews coming to Israel
  • All the jews staying in Israel
  • He will be a descendent of David (lineage goes solely through the biological father)
  • The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever
  • He will be a unified king of Israel
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
That's easy. He will fulfill the messianic prohesies in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37.

They are

  • World peace
  • All the jews coming to Israel
  • All the jews staying in Israel
  • He will be a descendent of David (lineage goes solely through the biological father)
  • The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever
  • He will be a unified king of Israel

Let me help by supplying this list of messianic prophecies, including where they're found:

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Let me help by supplying this list of messianic prophecies, including where they're found:

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

That too.

I want to add that the jews had one of the worst times in their history when jesus was around. That is the complete opposite of the messianic prophesies.

And before you say it, 2nd coming is a christian concept. It has nothing to do with the jewish messiah.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
That too.

I want to add that the jews had one of the worst times in their history when jesus was around. That is the complete opposite of the messianic prophesies.

And before you say it, 2nd coming is a christian concept. It has nothing to do with the jewish messiah.

World peace
All the jews coming to Israel
All the jews staying in Israel
He will be a descendent of David (lineage goes solely through the biological father)
The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever
He will be a unified king of Israel

Let me help by supplying this list of messianic prophecies, including where they're found:

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)

The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)

The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvoth

He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)

Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

Thanks for effort both of you. I could say of course that this is happening already as is above not below. How else can it "last forever". Why would we want things on earth to be perfect considering that it earth and not Heaven? The point of a perfect earth seems redundant. If it is perfect then how is there heaven. Yes I know, you never said the word "perfect"
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
That's easy. He will fulfill the messianic prohesies in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37.

They are

  • World peace
  • All the jews coming to Israel
  • All the jews staying in Israel
  • He will be a descendent of David (lineage goes solely through the biological father)
  • The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever
  • He will be a unified king of Israel
Presumably then you don't see the Dome as the Temple. It does seem to be there rather permanently though. Interesting that it should be there at all. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with Israel, Jews if you wish, the Saviour came from there, salvation is of the Jews, the difference is, you wait for him, when I see as already come.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
"some" might mean me then, eh. Elohiym is still plural. You said yourself that you don't know why. I am aware that inflection changes the word. It makes a plural word into a singular; if you are saying that is wrong then say so. The easy answer is that they worshipped gods from time to time, and thus used that word. The inflection was changed to make it singular as they got rid of the old gods and became a monotheistic faith

Elohim is taken to be plural. So, I would say 'G-d and the Host'. That's my opinion.
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
In my opinion, it is not true at all that the Bible has become corrupted or seriously changed over the centuries. Here are a few links which help to explain my position:

12 Claims Every Catholic Should Be Able to Answer - See Number 3.

Has the New Testament been corrupted?|Is it true the Bible has been inaccurately copied? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry - Normally I would not link to CARM since they are anti-Catholic in nature but this is a pretty decent article about how the Bible has not become corrupted in a way which would affect doctrine. There are a few errors or differences among ancient manuscripts but they are largely punctuation and spelling differences. They have no effect on our doctrine in my opinion.

Is Everything in the Bible True? | Catholic Answers - This is a great magazine article from Catholic Answers which helps to explain whether or not the Bible has errors.

BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS ANSWERED -- Biblical Errors Mistakes Difficulties Discrepancies Countered - This is a great website with a list of 143 supposed "contradictions" in the Bible which are refuted in brief paragraphs.

The Quran Vs. The Bible

The History of the Bible

Library : The Accuracy of Scripture - Catholic Culture

So anyway, these links explain the Catholic teaching on the accuracy of the Bible and defend the Bible against attacks against its accuracy. So anyway, these are all my beliefs. I hope you all will read at least some of these so that way you can better understand what Catholics believe about the Bible.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Thanks for effort both of you. I could say of course that this is happening already as is above not below. How else can it "last forever". Why would we want things on earth to be perfect considering that it earth and not Heaven? The point of a perfect earth seems redundant. If it is perfect then how is there heaven. Yes I know, you never said the word "perfect"

It's really simple. Either Jesus fulfilled the prophesies or he didn't.

Judaism has had over 52 false messiahs.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
It's really simple. Either Jesus fulfilled the prophesies or he didn't.

Judaism has had over 52 false messiahs.

Here's the problem with your argument. Afaik Christianity believes...
1. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies.
2. Yoheshuah issued in the New Covenant
3. Christianity isn't just for Jews, it's for anyone, all the nations.
Other issues.
Yoheshuah changed the way we look at the Torah laws, we aren't beholden to them, except either ones we choose to follow, or the Ten Commandents, we are beholden to those.
 
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