The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[paarsurrey]

Then obviously you have no clue regarding Jewish scriptures.

"The Jewish scriptures present a God that is dreadful and hankers after the sins of the humans only to punish them.

That is because when OT Bible was committed to writing, the scribes at that time were narrow minded people so the OT Bible reflected more of their character than the truthful and merciful attributes of the One-True-God."


Please quote from Torah that my above observation is totally wrong.

Regards

 

[Robert.Evans]

That too.

I want to add that the jews had one of the worst times in their history when jesus was around. That is the complete opposite of the messianic prophesies.

And before you say it, 2nd coming is a christian concept. It has nothing to do with the jewish messiah.

All of these things happened through the Essenes for a short time, the real Yisrael and land of Yisrael is above, not below. THERE all things are accomplished. Things within the corporeal realm are mere shadows and types of the true things which exist. It would seem, however, that according to your reasoning, that there will be at some point another Messiah (who will be false) that you will accept, and these things might well be accomplished. I do not think you should hold your breath however. It might take some time. False teachers always come later as it is written. It is funny though how people keep wishing to see everything accomplished on earth. I guess it is because we are in a physical body, it binds us to such thoughts, but they are not the reality to come.

 

[metis]

Here's the problem with your argument. Afaik Christianity believes...
1. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies.

Since CMike has not yet responded, let me deal with your points and then he hopefully will throw in his two cents when he returns.

To the above, we've already established that he didn't fulfilled them.

About 15 years ago, I took a three evening seminar with a Christian theologian (Lyons was his last name, but I'll be darned if I can remember his first name) who gave seminars in the U.S., Canada, and Israel (he died about 5 years ago). Near the end of the final seminar, he said that Christians simply cannot call Jesus the long awaited messiah simply because he didn't fulfill the prophecies, although Dr. Lyons felt that he would likely do so during the 2nd coming. However, until then,...

2. Yoheshuah issued in the New Covenant

There are new covenants mentioned in the Tanakh that already were delivered, so this could be a logical possibility. Plus, at least to me, it makes sense that God may have made promises to other peoples in other locations and even with other religions.

3. Christianity isn't just for Jews, it's for anyone, all the nations.

Judaism is for all nations as well if they wish to follow its precepts. A reminder that "Jews" is a nationality, not a religion.

Yoheshuah changed the way we look at the Torah laws, we aren't beholden to them, except either ones we choose to follow, or the Ten Commandents, we are beholden to those.

Gentiles are not beholding to the Law but Jews are, plus Torah and Tanakh make it clear that the Covenant and the Law are "forever" and "perpetual". The two main themes covered over and over again in Torah and Tanakh are the promise of the Covenant and the necessity of following of the Law. If you have a concordance, look up "Covenant" and "Law" and see how many times these are mentioned.

BTW, actually you are not beholding to the Ten Commandments as they are the first 10 of 613 Commandments, and these only apply to Jews. Now if you wish to follow them, that's your choice, and I would suggest that it's not a bad idea to do so.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Since CMike has not yet responded, let me deal with your points and then he hopefully will throw in his two cents when he returns.

To the above, we've already established that he didn't fulfilled them.

About 15 years ago, I took a three evening seminar with a Christian theologian (Lyons was his last name, but I'll be darned if I can remember his first name) who gave seminars in the U.S., Canada, and Israel (he died about 5 years ago). Near the end of the final seminar, he said that Christians simply cannot call Jesus the long awaited messiah simply because he didn't fulfill the prophecies, although Dr. Lyons felt that he would likely do so during the 2nd coming. However, until then,...




There are new covenants mentioned in the Tanakh that already were delivered, so this could be a logical possibility. Plus, at least to me, it makes sense that God may have made promises to other peoples in other locations and even with other religions.




Judaism is for all nations as well if they wish to follow its precepts. A reminder that "Jews" is a nationality, not a religion.



Gentiles are not beholding to the Law but Jews are, plus Torah and Tanakh make it clear that the Covenant and the Law are "forever" and "perpetual". The two main themes covered over and over again in Torah and Tanakh are the promise of the Covenant and the necessity of following of the Law. If you have a concordance, look up "Covenant" and "Law" and see how many times these are mentioned.

BTW, actually you are not beholding to the Ten Commandments as they are the first 10 of 613 Commandments, and these only apply to Jews. Now if you wish to follow them, that's your choice, and I would suggest that it's not a bad idea to do so.

He who has been given much, from that one, much is demanded, as it is written. We have to keep the law, but is through the spirit in the heart.

As has already been established, contrary to what you said, everything was fulfilled through the Essenes firstly and then above in the Higher Heavens. That is reality. Everything that is invisible is the reality that we seek. Looking for everything here is not going to work. There are some verses where they know who Yahshuah is and some where they do not. Why? Because he was hidden, the one they saw was not the Saviour, but he was there. Do you not find it interesting how there is now no Temple on earth, which he said, and that you can't therefore keep all the law. The Temple is supposed to last forever (aeons). How is that possible? Even our planet will not last 'forever'. It is above

 

[metis]

\We have to keep the law, but is through the spirit in the heart.

Are you Jewish?

As has already been established, contrary to what you said, everything was fulfilled through the Essenes firstly and then above in the Higher Heavens. That is reality.

That may be your reality but that's only one interpretation that you have bought in to. To elevate your opinion so that it "is reality" is intellectual arrogance, especially since there are other interpretations. Opinions are not necessarily facts no matter how much one may believe them.

BTW, many have tried to link the Essenes to Jesus, but if one carefully looks ups what the Essenes actually believed in, including some of the scriptures they used, there simply is no such indication that one had anything to do with the other. Ever read B.A.R.?

Everything that is invisible is the reality that we seek. Looking for everything here is not going to work. There are some verses where they know who Yahshuah is and some where they do not. Why? Because he was hidden, the one they saw was not the Saviour, but he was there.

Thanks for your opinion.

Do you not find it interesting how there is now no Temple on earth, which he said, and that you can't therefore keep all the law. The Temple is supposed to last forever (aeons). How is that possible? Even our planet will not last 'forever'. It is above

There was not only a time before the Temple was constructed and prior to the Ark existing, but we also offered no sacrifices, and yet we survived. We operated without the Temple during the Babylonian exile, which is covered in the Tanakh, and the world and our world didn't come to an end. When we retook control of the Temple Mount area in Jerusalem after the Six Day War, we didn't rebuilt the Temple, and we're doing quite OK, thank you. If the Temple was absolutely essential, we would have already rebuilt it.

What you are missing is that some of the Laws are conditional. The primary purpose of the Temple sacrifice was for the forgiveness of both familial and communal sins, but these can be forgive in other ways, such as even just plain old-fashion prayer. And Yom Kippur is a service especially devoted to this communal forgiveness through prayer and fasting. IOW, "there's more than one way to skin a cat", as gross as that analogy is.

Anyhow, we are pretty much getting away from the OP, and my previous post was to answer your questions from a Jewish point of view (CMike may not agree with all that I have posted here, which is why I say "a Jewish" rather than "the Jewish" point of view). If you wish to pursue this further, maybe you should start another thread.

 

[Desert Snake]

BTW, actually you are not beholding to the Ten Commandments as they are the first 10 of 613 Commandments, and these only apply to Jews. Now if you wish to follow them, that's your choice, and I would suggest that it's not a bad idea to do so.

My understanding of Christianity is that we are, actually, beholden to the ten Commandments, and further, since the New Covenant is a continuation of the prior Covenant, we are advised to follow commandments therein which are in accordance to the New Covenant. We are, in essence, completely beholden to the entire Covenant.

Churches that practice otherwise are apparently ignoring the fact that Yoheshuah said He came to fulfill the Covenant, not do away with it.

 

[metis]

My understanding of Christianity is that we are, actually, beholden to the ten Commandments, and further, since the New Covenant is a continuation of the prior Covenant, we are advised to follow commandments therein which are in accordance to the New Covenant. We are, in essence, completely beholden to the entire Covenant.

Churches that practice otherwise are apparently ignoring the fact that Yoheshuah said He came to fulfill the Covenant, not do away with it.

First of all, I'm pleased to see that you're not into replacement theology.

As far as the Law is concerned, The Law given at Sinai was to the Israelites only, however there were gentiles in their midst. What occurred next was a compromise, namely that us Jews had to obey the entire Law, but gentiles only were required to follow part of the Law that we today call "civil law". They did not perform the Temple sacrifices, for example, although some would to the Temple to study anyway.

These groups of gentiles that did observe many of the religious Laws eventually became called "God-fearers", and some Christian theologians believe it's quite possible that at least some of them may have been early followers of Jesus.

 

[Desert Snake]

First of all, I'm pleased to see that you're not into replacement theology.

Oh, I see what you mean there, because of the 'New Covenant' ideas that exist. Never quite sure what that term meant, but I've run across it before.

As far as the Law is concerned, The Law given at Sinai was to the Israelites only, however there were gentiles in their midst. What occurred next was a compromise, namely that us Jews had to obey the entire Law, but gentiles only were required to follow part of the Law that we today call "civil law". They did not perform the Temple sacrifices, for example, although some would to the Temple to study anyway.

Sure, makes sense.

These groups of gentiles that did observe many of the religious Laws eventually became called "God-fearers", and some Christian theologians believe it's quite possible that at least some of them may have been early followers of Jesus.

Ah, right. Thanks for bringing some context to that.

L'shalom

 

[Sabour]

So you think it is an interpolation? So is most of the Bible. It matters not, it is the end result that counts I think

I am not sure I mentioned that point, but if not, here it is

4:147 And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

4:158 Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

So Jesus peace be upon him as I said, didn't die.

Now one may ask than why there is a verse talking about his death?

The death would be in the second coming of Jesus peace be upon him when he comes to kill the antichrist.

 

[paarsurrey]

Then obviously you have no clue regarding jewish scriptures.

"The Jewish scriptures present a God that is dreadful and hankers after the sins of the humans only to punish them.

That is because when OT Bible was committed to writing, the scribes at that time were narrow minded people so the OT Bible reflected more of their character than the truthful and merciful attributes of the One-True-God."


Please quote from Torah that my above observation is totally wrong.

Further the Bible confirms that it has been corrupted:


Yeshayahu- Isaiah - Chapter 24
1. Behold the Lord empties the land and lays it waste, and He shall turn over its face and scatter its inhabitants. א. הִנֵּה יְהֹוָה בּוֹקֵק הָאָרֶץ וּבוֹלְקָהּ וְעִוָּה פָנֶיהָ וְהֵפִיץ יֹשְׁבֶיהָ:
2. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest, as with the slave, so with his master, as with the maidservant, so with her mistress, as with the buyer, so with the seller, as with the lender, so with the borrower, as with the creditor, so with the one who owes him. ב. וְהָיָה כָעָם כַּכֹּהֵן כַּעֶבֶד כַּאדֹנָיו כַּשִּׁפְחָה כַּגְּבִרְתָּהּ כַּקּוֹנֶה כַּמּוֹכֵר כַּמַּלְוֶה כַּלּוֶֹה כַּנֹּשֶׁה כַּאֲשֶׁר נֹשֶׁא בוֹ:
3. The land shall be emptied and it shall be pillaged, for the Lord has spoken this thing. ג. הִבּוֹק | תִּבּוֹק הָאָרֶץ וְהִבּוֹז | תִּבּוֹז כִּי יְהֹוָה דִּבֶּר אֶת הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה:
4. The land has mourned, it has withered, the land has been humbled and withered, the highest of the people of the land have been humbled. ד. אָבְלָה נָבְלָה הָאָרֶץ אֻמְלְלָה נָבְלָה תֵּבֵל אֻמְלָלוּ מְרוֹם עַם הָאָרֶץ:
5. And the land has deceived because of its inhabitants, for they transgressed instructions, infracted statutes, broke the everlasting covenant. ה. וְהָאָרֶץ חָנְפָה תַּחַת יֹשְׁבֶיהָ כִּי עָבְרוּ תוֹרֹת חָלְפוּ חֹק הֵפֵרוּ בְּרִית עוֹלָם:
6. Therefore, an oath has consumed the land, and the inhabitants thereof were wasted; therefore, the inhabitants of the land were dried up, and few people remained.

Yeshayahu - Chapter 24 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible





Regards

 

[Flankerl]

Okay i finally cant bear it anymore and have to say it.


The third "THE" in the thread title annoys me beyond words.

 

[RabbiO]

"The Jewish scriptures present a God that is dreadful and hankers after the sins of the humans only to punish them.

That is because when OT Bible was committed to writing, the scribes at that time were narrow minded people so the OT Bible reflected more of their character than the truthful and merciful attributes of the One-True-God."

Please quote from Torah that my above observation is totally wrong.

Regards

That's not how the game is played.

You made the accusation.

Now you get to try to prove it - and not by simply quoting verses, but by explaining those verses in context, not only in the context of the Tanakh itself, but in context of the times in which the verses you choose were written.

 

[Porque77]

I believe it is possible to just exchange one law for another but my belief is that Jesus is the law and that is constituted by whatever He says it is whether OT or NT.

Since Jesus preached the gospel, the people knew the true Law of God and the true commandments of God ...

Christians should not see it so difficult. Just follow the Gospel and there is said all.

Since the emperors of Rome in the fourth century, imposed to the Christians the laws of the Old Testament, Christians are confused and since then, very few people know the true commandments of God written in the Gospel.

The real God's commandments are the commandments of the Gospel.

The Law of God taught by Jesus Christ:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law:

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22

These are the commandments of the Gospel, which are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many commandments of the Old Testament commanded death sentences, wars and slavery. And those commandments weren't really God's Law.

 

[CMike]

Since Jesus preached the gospel, the people knew the true Law of God and the true commandments of God ...

Christians should not see it so difficult. Just follow the Gospel and there is said all.

Since the emperors of Rome in the fourth century, imposed to the Christians the laws of the Old Testament, Christians are confused and since then, very few people know the true commandments of God written in the Gospel.

The real God's commandments are the commandments of the Gospel.

The Law of God taught by Jesus Christ:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law:

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22

These are the commandments of the Gospel, which are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many commandments of the Old Testament commanded death sentences, wars and slavery. And those commandments weren't really God's Law.

Broken record those at commandments G-D gave the jews in the Torah.

What jesus said was irrelevant.

He wasn't G-D nor any form of G-d.

The fact that he played a god within itself made him a false god.

He was just a good salesmen, and people bought what he was selling.

Btw It says "do not murder", not do not kill.

 

[CMike]

"The Jewish scriptures present a God that is dreadful and hankers after the sins of the humans only to punish them.

That is because when OT Bible was committed to writing, the scribes at that time were narrow minded people so the OT Bible reflected more of their character than the truthful and merciful attributes of the One-True-God."


Please quote from Torah that my above observation is totally wrong.

Further the Bible confirms that it has been corrupted:


Yeshayahu- Isaiah - Chapter 24
1. Behold the Lord empties the land and lays it waste, and He shall turn over its face and scatter its inhabitants. א. הִנֵּה יְהֹוָה בּוֹקֵק הָאָרֶץ וּבוֹלְקָהּ וְעִוָּה פָנֶיהָ וְהֵפִיץ יֹשְׁבֶיהָ:
2. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest, as with the slave, so with his master, as with the maidservant, so with her mistress, as with the buyer, so with the seller, as with the lender, so with the borrower, as with the creditor, so with the one who owes him. ב. וְהָיָה כָעָם כַּכֹּהֵן כַּעֶבֶד כַּאדֹנָיו כַּשִּׁפְחָה כַּגְּבִרְתָּהּ כַּקּוֹנֶה כַּמּוֹכֵר כַּמַּלְוֶה כַּלּוֶֹה כַּנֹּשֶׁה כַּאֲשֶׁר נֹשֶׁא בוֹ:
3. The land shall be emptied and it shall be pillaged, for the Lord has spoken this thing. ג. הִבּוֹק | תִּבּוֹק הָאָרֶץ וְהִבּוֹז | תִּבּוֹז כִּי יְהֹוָה דִּבֶּר אֶת הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה:
4. The land has mourned, it has withered, the land has been humbled and withered, the highest of the people of the land have been humbled. ד. אָבְלָה נָבְלָה הָאָרֶץ אֻמְלְלָה נָבְלָה תֵּבֵל אֻמְלָלוּ מְרוֹם עַם הָאָרֶץ:
5. And the land has deceived because of its inhabitants, for they transgressed instructions, infracted statutes, broke the everlasting covenant. ה. וְהָאָרֶץ חָנְפָה תַּחַת יֹשְׁבֶיהָ כִּי עָבְרוּ תוֹרֹת חָלְפוּ חֹק הֵפֵרוּ בְּרִית עוֹלָם:
6. Therefore, an oath has consumed the land, and the inhabitants thereof were wasted; therefore, the inhabitants of the land were dried up, and few people remained.

Yeshayahu - Chapter 24 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible





Regards

Yeah, so?

 

[CMike]

Thanks for effort both of you. I could say of course that this is happening already as is above not below. How else can it "last forever". Why would we want things on earth to be perfect considering that it earth and not Heaven? The point of a perfect earth seems redundant. If it is perfect then how is there heaven. Yes I know, you never said the word "perfect"

Which prophesy that we listed said the world will be perfect?

Only G-D is perfect, we are not perfect.

 

[CMike]

Elohim is taken to be plural. So, I would say 'G-d and the Host'. That's my opinion.

I already posted this.

Here it is again.

Why is G

When Abraham started off, people understood that there is one original G‑d who is the essence of being. This is what we refer to with the four-letter name, the Tetragrammaton, whose code name in Kabbalah is "Havaya." That name can only be written in singular form. In fact, it is basically a conjugation of the verb "to be."
They knew of this concept of Havaya, but they considered it far too lofty an idea, seemingly inaccessible and irrelevant to their lives. Instead, they connected to the many forces of nature. They called these "Elohim"—meaning, "mighty forces."
Abraham came along and said, "You guys got it all wrong. Havaya is Elohim! It's all one! He is the essence of being and He is all the forces of nature in one big package!"
That's why, as the Biblical commentator Baal HaTurim points out, the Hebrew letters in the name Elohim have the same gematria (numerical value) as "haTeva"—which means the natural order.
For more on the relation of these two names of G‑d, see Shaar HaYichud V'ha-Emunah by Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi. You can find that here.​

 

[CMike]

Presumably then you don't see the Dome as the Temple. It does seem to be there rather permanently though. Interesting that it should be there at all. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with Israel, Jews if you wish, the Saviour came from there, salvation is of the Jews, the difference is, you wait for him, when I see as already come.

It's talking about a jewish temple not a muslim one. :no:

 

[Robert.Evans]

It's talking about a jewish temple not a muslim one. :no:

hee, hee, still its a Temple is it not.

 

[CMike]

Here's the problem with your argument. Afaik Christianity believes...
1. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies.

He didn't.

2. Yoheshuah issued in the New Covenant

Since G-D said that his covenant with the jews will last forever there is no such thing.

Also G-D stated in the Torah not to add nor subtract from the Torah.

Heck even jesus said not to change one iota of jewish law.

3. Christianity isn't just for Jews, it's for anyone, all the nations.

Everyone can keep the Torah. They are just obligated to keep the 7 laws given to Noach, whereas jews are obligated to keep 613 laws.

Other issues.
Yoheshuah changed the way we look at the Torah laws, we aren't beholden to them, except either ones we choose to follow, or the Ten Commandents, we are beholden to those.

jesus therefore created and formed his own religion. His religion has nothing to do with the Torah, Tanach, or any other jewish scriptures. That's fine.

My issue comes when christians try to pervert judaism so it fits into their beliefs.

Assuming you believe in the Torah, jesus is directly contradicting what G-D commanded. A very big no no :no::no: