The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[CMike]

True, if he was not a prophet and the Messiah.

Even if that was true, he still couldn't keep the laws that you are responsible for.

 

[Sabour]

Even if that was true, he still couldn't keep the laws that you are responsible for.

Yes every person is responsible for keeping the commandments;

 

[metis]

How we act matters, not whether we eat lobster or not.

So, you believe that the kosher Laws as specified in both Torah and Tanakh were not from God?

 

[RabbiO]

Bible confirms that it has been corrupted:

Jeremiah - Chapter 8:8-9
8. How do you say, "We are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us"? Verily, behold it is in vain, he made a false scribes' pen.
9. Wise men were ashamed, they were broken and caught; behold they rejected the word of the Lord, now what wisdom have they?

You didn't answer this the first time, so I say it once again -

You made the accusation.

Now you get to try to prove it - and not by simply quoting verses, but by explaining those verses in context, not only in the context of the Tanakh itself, but in context of the times in which the verses you choose were written.

Are you unwilling or unable to do that?

 

[Desert Snake]

So, you believe that the kosher Laws as specified in both Torah and Tanakh were not from God?

Actually I didn't say that, there is a valuement, or should, that has to be applied. If it's 'o.k. to get a full back tattoo of an inverted pentagram, but not o.k. to eat lobster, there is something wrong with the valuement system imo.


Btw, no one can honestly disagree with placing value differently to different laws, everyone does that.
The argument lies in how one does that, not whether the Bible is divinely inspired.

p.s. what parts of the Bible aren't supposed to be divinely inspired? Your argument is fundy, which is fine, but that's what it is.

 

[metis]

Actually I didn't say that, there is a valuement, or should, that has to be applied. If it's 'o.k. to get a full back tattoo of an inverted pentagram, but not o.k. to eat lobster, there is something wrong with the valuement system imo.

You actually avoided answering the question: do you believe the kosher Laws were inspired by God, yes or no? Whether a tattoo is more or less significant has nothing to do with the question.

Btw, no one can honestly disagree with placing value differently to different laws, everyone does that.
The argument lies in how one does that, not whether the Bible is divinely inspired.

According to Torah, all Laws or violation of the Laws are not equal.

And whether one believes in whether the Bible is divinely inspired does relate to this, so what's your take on this question?

p.s. what parts of the Bible aren't supposed to be divinely inspired? Your argument is fundy, which is fine, but that's what it is.

Actually, I'm about as far from "fundy" as one can get.

 

[Desert Snake]

You actually avoided answering the question: do you believe the kosher Laws were inspired by God, yes or no? Whether a tattoo is more or less significant has nothing to do with the question.

Yes, I do. That is why I follow some. That being said, I use my reasoning to discern what applies to secular reasoning for dietary laws, and what is beyond secular reasoning.

According to Torah, all Laws or violation of the Laws are not equal.

So where's the beef? Seems like we agree.

Actually, I'm about as far from "fundy" as one can get.

That's what I've gathered, so I'm not sure why you're 'arguing' with me.

 

[metis]

Yes, I do. That is why I follow some. That being said, I use my reasoning to discern what applies to secular reasoning for dietary laws, and what is beyond secular reasoning...

So where's the beef? Seems like we agree...

That's what I've gathered, so I'm not sure why you're 'arguing' with me.

If you had came from a predominantly secular perspective to begin with, chances are I wouldn't have disagreed with you, although I've been known to play devil's advocate at times. But if you check back a bit earlier with what you wrote, you came out with a more theistic perspective that I felt missed the mark.

 

[paarsurrey]

THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

Following verses from Torah tell us what the scribes have been doing with it:

Deuteronomy - Chapter 31

24. And it was, when Moses finished writing the words of this Torah in a scroll, until their very completion,
25. that Moses commanded the Levites, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying:
26. "Take this Torah scroll and place it along side the ark of covenant of the Lord, your God, and it will be there as a witness.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13:1

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Deuteronomy - Chapter 34:1, 5-7

1. And Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, [to the] top of the summit facing Jericho. And the Lord showed him all the Land: The Gilead until Dan,
5. And Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there, in the land of Moab, by the mouth of the Lord.
6. And He buried him in the valley, in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Pe'or. And no person knows the place of his burial, unto this day.
7. Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eye had not dimmed, nor had he lost his [natural] freshness.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 34 (Parshah V'Zot HaBerachah) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

If I am wrong please correct me.

Regards

 

[metis]

THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

Following verses from Torah tell us what the scribes have been doing with it:

Deuteronomy - Chapter 31

24. And it was, when Moses finished writing the words of this Torah in a scroll, until their very completion,
25. that Moses commanded the Levites, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying:
26. "Take this Torah scroll and place it along side the ark of covenant of the Lord, your God, and it will be there as a witness.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13:1

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Deuteronomy - Chapter 34:1, 5-7

1. And Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, [to the] top of the summit facing Jericho. And the Lord showed him all the Land: The Gilead until Dan,
5. And Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there, in the land of Moab, by the mouth of the Lord.
6. And He buried him in the valley, in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Pe'or. And no person knows the place of his burial, unto this day.
7. Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eye had not dimmed, nor had he lost his [natural] freshness.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 34 (Parshah V'Zot HaBerachah) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

If I am wrong please correct me.

Regards

Doncha think it's pretty disingenuous to quote our scriptures and then try and tell us that our scriptures are unreliable?

BTW, just how reliable do you think the Qur'an is and why?

 

[RabbiO]

Care to guess who the false scribes were? Christians.

Parr and Porque, who originated this thread, are totally mistaken in regard to Jeremiah, as well as Isaiah, but this??

Really?

 

[RabbiO]

THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

Following verses from Torah tell us what the scribes have been doing with it.....
If I am wrong please correct me.

The verses in question have nothing to do with your assertion.

Want to try again?

 

[CMike]

THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

Following verses from Torah tell us what the scribes have been doing with it:

Deuteronomy - Chapter 31

24. And it was, when Moses finished writing the words of this Torah in a scroll, until their very completion,
25. that Moses commanded the Levites, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying:
26. "Take this Torah scroll and place it along side the ark of covenant of the Lord, your God, and it will be there as a witness.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13:1

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Deuteronomy - Chapter 34:1, 5-7

1. And Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, [to the] top of the summit facing Jericho. And the Lord showed him all the Land: The Gilead until Dan,
5. And Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there, in the land of Moab, by the mouth of the Lord.
6. And He buried him in the valley, in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Pe'or. And no person knows the place of his burial, unto this day.
7. Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eye had not dimmed, nor had he lost his [natural] freshness.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 34 (Parshah V'Zot HaBerachah) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

If I am wrong please correct me.

Regards

Yup, you are wrong.

False scribes would be Christians and others that tried to alter Jewish law.

 

[Muffled]

When we read the scriptures, what we are reading are the accounts of people, many of whom never actually knew or heard the people they quote, so we have to be cautious about accepting any rendition as being 100% accurate. I am not a scriptural literalist, not only with the Christian scriptures but the Torah and the Tanakh as well.

The reality is that we can't be absolutely certain of what Jesus said-- or Moses, or Mohammed, or the Buddha, ... However, it's very difficult to me to imagine Jesus strutting around claiming to be God and attracting Jewish followers as this runs so counter to what we traditionally have been taught. If Jesus literally was God, and since the apostles we can assume say him face to face, you can see where there's going to be a conflict with the verses.

Also, to repeat myself in an earlier post, what we do read Jesus supposedly saying in the gospels is to refer to "the Father" as being a different "person" than he (check back at a previous post to see some of the verses I quote to show this). How can it make one iota of sense to have Jesus praying to "the Father" if he indeed is God? OTOH, if the apostles believed that Jesus was of God, then we can make sense of these verses.

I believe I can be certain because I have Jesus to tell me whether He said something or not.

I don't believe I find God to be a fan of traditions of men.

I don't believe I see one but feel welcome to make the attempt.

Would you be of some assistance and find the post for me?

I don't believe I see this.

I believe It makes perfect sense to me.

I believe what the apostles believed makes no difference. The apostles were not God and had many errors in their belief systems.

 

[metis]

I believe I can be certain because I have Jesus to tell me whether He said something or not.

I don't believe I find God to be a fan of traditions of men.

I don't believe I see one but feel welcome to make the attempt.

Would you be of some assistance and find the post for me?

I don't believe I see this.

I believe It makes perfect sense to me.

I believe what the apostles believed makes no difference. The apostles were not God and had many errors in their belief systems.

Fine, if that's what you believe, that's what you believe. As for myself, I rely more on objective evidence than on belief-- but that's just my approach.

 

[Muffled]

IYO, what other manifestations of God has there been or currently are? Whatever your answer, what is your opinion based on? How certain are you that your answer(s) is/are correct?

Hindus teach that we all are manifestations of God in the sense that God is What made us and therefore must be us to a large extent. The same be can also be said of animals and even inanimate objects as God made them all and, therefore, must be in them as well. Do you believe they are wrong? How can you tell?

The above are really sort of rhetorical questions that are going beyond the scope of the OP, but my point is that the issue of "manifestations" that you used has significant implications and possibilities. If you feel that Jesus is a manifestation of God, then it does beg the question of how many other manifestations are there, plus how can we tell what may be or may not be a manifestation of God?

I believe all born again Christians are a human manifestation of God. However in our case we also manage to manifest ourselves.

I believe it is based on the words of Jesus and certainty comes with things only God can do.

I believe they are correct in a past tense sense. Everything has an imprint of God on it but not everything has God present and working through it although God can work through anything He wishes as in the burning bush.

I believe the best way is by observing things that only God can do and by the words and intent.

 

[Muffled]

That's easy. He will fulfill the messianic prohesies in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37.

They are

• World peace
• All the jews coming to Israel
• All the jews staying in Israel
• He will be a descendent of David (lineage goes solely through the biological father)
• The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever
• He will be a unified king of Israel

I believe there is a problem with this list and that is that some prophecies refer to the second coming and end of the age so are not yet fulfilled.

I also believe the list is self justified ie that the person wishes to justify his own beliefs and the list reflects that.

 

[Muffled]

Fine, if that's what you believe, that's what you believe. As for myself, I rely more on objective evidence than on belief-- but that's just my approach.

I don't really believe that but I would love to see it happen. BTW I say I believe because the rules say I can't know anything. I guess it is too fanciful to call upon God expecting an answer and actually get one but I think of it as objective evidence.

Somehow I believe relllying on oneself seems more subjective than objective to me.

 

[metis]

I don't really believe that but I would love to see it happen. BTW I say I believe because the rules say I can't know anything. I guess it is too fanciful to call upon God expecting an answer and actually get one but I think of it as objective evidence.

Somehow I believe relllying on oneself seems more subjective than objective to me.

What don't you believe?

 

[RabbiO]

Yup, you are wrong.

False scribes would be Christians and others that tried to alter Jewish law.

Parr may be wrong, in fact he is wrong, but you're not doing much better.