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The Protestant Bible is flawed

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF TWO

The historical world of religion is changing significantly because of the vast early religious texts. For example, Solomon Zeitlin contended many years ago, that much of the pseudepigrapha were written “in opposition to normative Judaism. Normative Judaism regarded the Apocalyptists as destructive.” (in “Jewish apoc Lit, 1974). This is similar to Christians who claimed only the Heretics wrote testimonies and produced early Judeo-Christian literature (since so much of it disagreed with their theology).

This was part of the motivation for gathering pseudoepigraphic material by Charles and others such as Charlesworth who created the 1st and 2nd great volumes of Jewish Pseudoepigraphs. That is, the need to demonstrate to non-historians what the historians had long claimed, i.e. that the pseudepigrapha were not anti-canonical works partly by pointing out the “close intertwining of pseudepigraphic and earliest rabbinic thought in pre-70 CE Judaism.”

This changed the nature of worldviews regarding BOTH Christianity AND Judaism. For example, the earliest scholars went through a period when they initially felt that both were contaminated by non-Jewish ideas. The vast literature discovered in the 19th century (and are still being discovered) provides evidence that it was an old myth to believe that there were no foreign influences in “so-called official Judaism”. Much of what was seen as “foreign”, was indeed “jewish” and “old” but critics were simply unaware OF their providence as authentic jewish concepts.

Part of this error was due to the initial tendency for scholars to “emphasize too much the visionary aspect of the Pseudepigrapha” to the point of systematically neglecting the pseudepigraphical writings.

The changes in the attitudes of scholars feels like the texts are funneling scholarly conclusion in parallel historical directions. It feels like a “silent revolution” is going on surrounding the changing nature of discussions regarding early Judeo-Christian doctrine. MANY great Scholars of early texts are making this shift.

For example, Michael Heiser phD is the Academic Editor of Logos Bible Software accomplished his PhD (a version is available on line) on the theme of henotheism in early Israel. If you look at the list of scholars Dr. Heiser uses for support of his thesis (many of whom are developing theses along very similar lines and for similar reasons using similar texts…), it is quite long and includes many notable names such as Frank Moore Cross, David Noel Freedman, N. Habel, Nathan McDonald, P. Sanders, Yair Hoffman, J.T.A.M. van Ruiten, in fact, both B. Metzger and H.H. Rowley moved independently toward the idea of “uniqueness” as a designation for a God.

The point is that Enoch, which was in the early Canons is retained in early Judeo Christian literature and was quite popular (it was the ONLY book outside of the Pentateuch and psalms to be found in double digits in the Qumran/Dead Sea Scroll library…).

I think part of it’s decline in popularity was not merely the old did not represent the newer evolutions of Judao-Christian beliefs, but the Rabbinic Jewish prohibition of discussion of pre-creation themes was also to play a part in the Jewish loss of such traditions and knowledge that the early Jews had.

There are other reasons, of course, but this prohibition would have affected MUCH of early Judeo-Christian literature in the same ways as it would have affected enoch since one cannot READ early Judeo-Christian literature without coming face to face with pre-creation history of what was happening before God created the heaven and the earth and what his plan was.

In any case @Xavier Graham SA , good luck with your attempt to come up with a model regarding canon and text.

Clear
φισινεω
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Hi @Xavier Graham SA1) Enoch was scripture to the New Testament writers who referenced it and quoted from it.
While Enoch is no longer in the western Canon, it is correct that the eastern (Ethiopian) canon still includes an Enoch.
Certainly the New Testament writers were quite familiar with it, else they would not quote themes from Enoch so often if they has not been familiar with it.

Your example from Jude comes from 1 Enoch (of approx. 300 b.c.), and the fact that Jude quotes from the "prophet enoch" does indicate that this text was in the personal Canon of the writer of New Testament
You are basing this on the fact that Jude quotes from Enoch? Paul quotes from pagan poets. Yet their writings are not considered canon. Your logic is seriously flawed.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF TWO

Regarding the illogic summation regarding the import and useage of pseudoepigraphic literature in ancient Judeo-Christianity


Hi @IndigoChild5559 ;

Indigochild5559 said : “You are basing this on the fact that Jude quotes from Enoch?” (post #22)

Of course not.
Your concluding summation is irrational.

I cannot tell if your faulty conclusion is from faulty or inadequate reading of my comments,
or if you are simply being irrational,
or if you have an unspoken desire to justify the Jewish “orthodox” rabbinic prohibition of reading Enochian literature dealing with pre-creation themes
or if you, as a jew, are wanting to discount ancient Jewish literature which supports Jesus' role as the Messiah,
or some other problem affecting your logic.

I simply can’t tell why you came up with such a strange concluding summation.


THE HISTORICAL IMPORTANCE OF THE ENOCHIAN LITERATURE AS A GENRE

Just as the Messianic Jews who accepted the messiah Jesus, believed in and quoted earlier prophets such as Moses, similarly, Jude believes in and quotes the doctrine of Enoch, a prophet of God as scripture. However, as my prior comments pointed out, this is not the only reason the early Jews and Messianic Jews (Christians) used Enochian themes.

For example, The great apocryphologist Charles noted that “nearly all the writers of the New Testament were familiar with it, and were more or less influenced by it in thought and dictation,” and “….with earlier fathers and apologists it had all the weight of a canonical book.” (R.H. Charles Book of enoch 2:163).

As with Lawrence, Charles' early study revealed no less than 128 places in the New Testament where the New Testament was influenced by Enoch (R.H. Charles Book of enoch pp xcv-ciii). THIS is why he said “ the influence of I Enoch on the New Testament has been greater than that of all the other apocryphal and pseudographical books taken together.” (R.H. Charles Book of enoch p. xcv)

While a study of the books' discussion about pre-creation themes and what God was planning before creating the earth is prohibited in "Orthodox" rabbinic Judaism, the book was not prohibited to ancient jews who, very obviously used it as a source book, just as the later Messianic Jews who became known as Christians used it.

For example, Charles lists at least 30 passages in the early Orthodox Jewish and Christian writings in which enoch is mentioned specifically. (plus Jubilees, Testament of the 12 Patriarchs, the Assumption of Moses, 2 Baruch, and 4 Ezra and more than 30 christian Patristic writers. (R.H. Charles Book of enoch pp xii-xiii).

There are enochian traditions in the Zohar and the Pistis Sophia claims to contain material from the two books of Jeu which enoch has written. “ (Carl Schmidt, Pistis Sophi, Leiden, 1978 p 247) “…They should find the mysteries which are in the Book of Jeu which I caused Enoch to write in Paradise” (Carl Schmidt, Pistis Sophi, Leiden, 1978 p 349)

As I've already pointed out, Enoch was popular among Messianic Judaism (who became known as "Christians") and who had obtained versions of if from the Jews… “…the most important pseudepigraphic of the first two centuries b.c.” (R.H. Charles Book of enoch pp 19-20).

The Hasidic writings of the time shows dependence upon Enoch (so do the later Cabalistic works). “Large parts of the lost Book of enoch were included in the Pirke of Rabbi Eleaser and in the Hechalot,” both important and respected historical works. (Adolf jellinek, Bet ha-Midrash – 6 vols 2:xxx – hereafter BHM).

There were more copies of Enochian literature found among the dead sea Scrolls than any other scripture outside of the first five books of Moses other than psalms
. A Book of Enoch still, to this day, remains firmly INSIDE the Ethiopian Old Testament (Ethiopian Orthodox – 45 million members)

In James Bruce’ scriptures he brought home from Abyssinia he brought home three priceless Ethiopian enoch texts. He wrote …Another is amongst the books of Scripture which I brought home, standing immediately before the Book of Job, which is its proper place in the Abyssinian Canon; and a third copy I have presented to the Bodleian Library at Oxford.” (McClintock, “Book of Enoch,” 3:225).

C. Bonner reminded us in 1937 that “…no part of the original writings, Hebrew of Aramaic, which entered into the composite work, has survived in the original Language. The Greek version, in which the church read enoch , also disappeared.” (Campbell Bonner, The Last Chapters of Enoch in Greek, p3) Despite this difficiency, I Enoch had long been recognized as the largest and, after the canonical book of Daniel, the most important of the Jewish apocalyptic works which have so recently (this in 1916) come to be recognized as supplying most important data for the critical study of NT ideas and praseology.”(A.L. Davies, “Enoch, Book of,” in Hastings, ed., Dictionary of the Apostolic church 1:334.)

This work, which had existed before this, was translated into Ethiopic about A.D. 500 (O. Ploger, “Henochbucher, “Die Religion in Geshichte und Gegenwart, p: 222). The leaves of Enoch the University of Michigan received in 1930 were matched by a few more from the same text that Frederick Kenyon found a year later, all from the 4th century. Van Andel tells us that it was typical of theedifying literature in Christian circles from the 3rd to the 6th(?) centuries,” ((Van Andel, Structuur, p 3) again reminding us of the influential place enochian literature had in the literature of the early Christian church.

Jellineck’s story of finding Hebrew Enoch texts in the Bet ha-Midrash reminds us that enoch was not simply influencial among the Christians, but it’s theological influence was felt among the Jews. In 1859 Jellinek suggested a Hebrew enoch had circulated among the jews.The Karaite Salmon b. Jerucham in the 10th century, Moses of Leon [12th century] and the Zohar toward the end of the 13th century all cite from a Book of Enoch . In Volume 2 of the Bet ha-Midrash, Jellinek gives us the text of a “Book of Enoch”…” (BHM, 2:xxx-xxxii) The next volume he notes the Great Hechalot, a book,parts of it appear in the Book of Enoch, that provided the source of the Christian-Essene and Jewish-Essene literature.” (BHM 3:vii, 83-102)

In Bet ha-Midrash, bolume 4, jellinek refers to text to a Life of Enoch from the Sefer ha-Yashar, using even older sources and announced to the world that this provideda new confirmation that the entire Enoch saga and the Enoch books were known to the Jews, and were only allowed to fall into neglect after the time when a growing Christianity displayed a dogmatic preference to this cycle (Sage). Thus, the Christian adoption of enochian literature, soured the Jews on Enoch. (BHM 4:xi-xii, 129-132)

In volume 5, in 1872 jellinek announced the vindication of his work on Enochian literature.In [Bet ha-Midrash] III, 1855, p. xxiii, I suggested that several version of the Hechalot themes attributed to the Wisdom of Enoch must be in existence. And so also the primitive…Book of Enoch was put together from various smaller works, which had been traced back to EnochThe study of Jewish apocalyptic literature was again initiated in 1857 by M. Lilgenfeld and it revealed that (thanks to references in by XII patriarchs, Jubilles and other works, that Enoch wasthe first” and “most important” of all the Palestinian apocalypses.” (Pierre Batiffol, “Apocalypses Apocryphes,” in V. vigouroux, ed. Dictionaire de la Bible, 1895-1912 1:757)Of all the Palestinian writings” (the wonderful Catholic scholar J.B. Frey said), “the book of enoch seems to have surpassed all the others in antiquity and in importance. (frey, “Apocryphes,” 1:357)

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

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Premium Member
POST TWO OF TWO

Though “Christian enoch” (i.e. the Greek Enoch) was important, the discovery of Enoch among the dead sea scrolls in such great numbers is the discovery showing Hebrew Enoch was first. In 1956, Father J.T. Milik announced eight different enoch fragments among the dead sea texts. (Later the number increased to eleven). I Enoch in Aramaric and an Aramaic book III (which was superior to the Ethiopian in some ways). There was also an epistle of Enoch to Shamazya and his friends.

F.M. Cross noted that the Pesher on Habakkuk wasan unknown work related to the Enoch Literature. (Frank M. Cross, “The Manuscripts of the Dead Sea Caves,” Biblical Archaeologist 17 (feb 1954) 3) Even the fantastic Genesis Apocryphon from Qumran begins with five columns that deal with the birth of Noah in a manner that has no direct relationship at all to the brief biblical account in Genesis 5, 28-29,” but instead resembles chapter cvi of the Book of Enoch in most essential points.” Terrien, “Enoch, Books of,” 10:394)

I hope it is becoming clear that one cannot read the old testament, the new testament, the early Judao-christian Literature or any judao-christian sacred literature from the earliest periods without coming face to face with enochian literature.
When you read the Old or New Testament, you are reading references to enochian literature. You just didn’t know it.
Many of the early doctrinal roads, passed through enochian influence.

All scholars on enoch will agree that the ultimate beginning of the enochian literature (or it’s many, many references and parts) remain completely unknown to history. However, all agree that the book of enoch derives from earlier writings. This is obvious since, many of the oldest sources we have claim to, go back to enoch.

You can seek for the source material for the most ancient of texts (which never turn up) or simply accept the assertion of the writers of Jubilees and the 12 Patriarchs do and assume that there was an Enoch which himself began the enochian literature just as we assume there was a Moses who wrote and began the Mosaic traditions we all discuss.

The base and core doctrinal themes of early Judao-christianity are somewhat independent of their various textual sources (if one is looking at themes that remain constant over a large portion of early Judao Christian Literature – these are the consistent, “orthodox doctrines” of ancient Christianity).

For example, whether I am a 21st century historian reading New Testament Jude who himself is quoting from Enoch as a scriptural reference, or if I am a 1st Century Christian reading from the Enoch text itself, the sacred theme is the same.

Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all...,” (New Testament Jude 1:14-15)“

Is the same theme as enoch, whom the writer of New Testament Jude is quoting :

Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them...” (Old Testament I Enoch ch 2)

When the writer of New Testament Jude is quoting old testament Enoch, he is not only quoting the same words from Enoch, but he is referring to the same doctrine as well. When Jesus and the apostles quote or refer to an Enochian textual theme, they are referring to themes in the earlier scriptural texts, just as Jude is referring to an earlier scripture which supports the early role of the Messiah Jesus inside Messianic Judaism of the time.


In any case, the import of Enochian literature cannot be discounted. While you are obviously not a historian, and, if you are an orthodox rabbinic Jew, you are forbidden to study such things, still, Enochian literature was an incredibly important source of influence for much of the ancient sacred literature it influenced.

I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful @IndigoChild5559


Clear
φυφυνεω
 
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Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
I grew up in Protestant churches that taught Biblical literalism. Churches also teach that the canon of the Bible and the Bible’s present form is perfect, thanks to divine guidance.
Gotquestions is a good reflection of the Protestant sentiment I have encountered in real life, so I’ll use them for an example
How and when was the canon of the Bible put together? | GotQuestions.org
From the link
The term “canon” is used to describe the books that are divinely inspired and therefore belong in the Bible... Ultimately, it was God who decided what books belonged in the biblical canon.
Biblical literalism is a popular teaching in Protestant circles, even if online it is not so much popular.
Can/should we interpret the Bible literally? | GotQuestions.org
Not only can we take the Bible literally, but we must take the Bible literally.
Well, if you take the Bible with 100% literalness, then you come across the problem. Jude 1:14-15 quotes Enoch 1, claiming that it is the words of the prophet Enoch himself. So, a literal interpretation says that Enoch 1 should be canon in the Bible.
What do Protestants say about this?
What is the book of Enoch and should it be in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
The Book of Enoch is any of several pseudepigraphal (falsely attributed works, texts whose claimed authorship is unfounded) works that attribute themselves to Enoch... The biblical book of Jude quotes from the Book of Enoch... But this does not mean the Book of Enoch is inspired by God and should be in the Bible... It is interesting to note that no scholars believe the Book of Enoch to have truly been written by the Enoch in the Bible.
hmm... I wonder if scholars feel like Moses wrote the Torah? Of course not! Yet...
What is the JEDP Theory? | GotQuestions.org
suddenly scholarship is ridiculous and baseless theory.
I’ve come to possible two conclusions, from my Biblical literalist POV.
1. The canon of the Protestant Bible is incorrect. If 1 Enoch is missing from the canon, then that means there may be other books missing from canon. If books are missing from canon, then doesn’t that mean that some books that are considered canon could possibly not be truly inspired?
2. If the canon is correct, as in the way GOD Himself sees canon, then you cannot take the Bible with 100% literalness.
Either way, I’ve believed in the infallibility of the Protestant Bible for all of my life, and now I’m beginning to question if that’s a reasonable position. Obviously not, right?

Honestly, is there a Bible which is NOT flawed?
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Honestly, is there a Bible which is NOT flawed?

I think that @Wandering Monk is making a valid point.

The Masoretes leave us multiple lists of problems with the Jewish bible they created (as well as in the source texts they used) and we have no other ancient sacred texts (Old or new testament) of any significant size that have no flaws in them.
I do not think Judeo-Christians can expect to have a perfect textual translation when source texts all have some degree of flaw and error and glosses.
I do not think religious faith must rely on a flawless text.

Clear
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@Wandering Monk said : "Whenever the questions about the Bible come up, I have to ask: which Bible are you referring to? Most Christians are unaware that there have been different canons (collections of books) in Christian Bibles over the centuries. Eastern churches did not include five NT books in their original canon."

I agree. When someone uses the term "bible" in an ancient historical context, one has to ask "Which bible" of "what time period" and of which geographical location one is speaking. (i.e. sinaiticus vs later bibles, Greek vs english, eastern vs western, etc.)

Both Jews and Christians seem unaware of ancient history and much of their historical concepts are contaminated with traditions dressed in historical assumptions.

Clear
φυακσεω
 
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CrochetOverCoffee

Ask me anything about the church of Christ.
Not every part of the Bible can or should be taken as literal. For instance, much of the prophetic literature is presented in the symbols of dreams; and the Psalms are works of poetry, so they use metaphor, simile and other forms of figurative language. Genre should always be considered when looking at ANY piece of literature, inspired or not.

But that does not mean that the entire Bible is not the inspired word of God.

As for the books commonly called the Apocrypha, those who organized the books of the Bible into a single volume had certain criteria for including the ones they did, and excluding those they did not. Among these were contradictions of plain doctrine, frivolous details, contradiction of history, and conspicuous stylistic differences pointing to inauthenticity.

Jude's allusion to Enoch, as is previously stated by other posters, is also not necessarily a quote from the book of
Enoch, but likely a quote of Enoch himself, which Jude would have access to as an inspired writer, if not from other sources.

(This is just an overview, and is hardly exhaustive. If you have further questions, feel free to PM me.)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Not every part of the Bible can or should be taken as literal. For instance, much of the prophetic literature is presented in the symbols of dreams; and the Psalms are works of poetry, so they use metaphor, simile and other forms of figurative language. Genre should always be considered when looking at ANY piece of literature, inspired or not.

But that does not mean that the entire Bible is not the inspired word of God.

As for the books commonly called the Apocrypha, those who organized the books of the Bible into a single volume had certain criteria for including the ones they did, and excluding those they did not. Among these were contradictions of plain doctrine, frivolous details, contradiction of history, and conspicuous stylistic differences pointing to inauthenticity.

Jude's allusion to Enoch, as is previously stated by other posters, is also not necessarily a quote from the book of
Enoch, but likely a quote of Enoch himself, which Jude would have access to as an inspired writer, if not from other sources.

(This is just an overview, and is hardly exhaustive. If you have further questions, feel free to PM me.)
Assuming that Jude was actually inspired (and I don't think he was) it doesn't mean he "had access" to information that he did not have direct knowledge of.
 

CrochetOverCoffee

Ask me anything about the church of Christ.
Assuming that Jude was actually inspired (and I don't think he was) it doesn't mean he "had access" to information that he did not have direct knowledge of.

The access I refer to IS his inspiration. In other words, God told him so. And yes, I believe that Jude was an inspired book, as I believe all the books of the Bible to be inspired. No I do not include the Apocrypha. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I think someone else would be better suited to explaining it than I.

The Truth About the Apocrypha and Lost Books of the Bible
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The access I refer to IS his inspiration. In other words, God told him so. And yes, I believe that Jude was an inspired book, as I believe all the books of the Bible to be inspired. No I do not include the Apocrypha. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I think someone else would be better suited to explaining it than I.

The Truth About the Apocrypha and Lost Books of the Bible
Nah, that's not the way it worked. God did not talk to these authors and they did not take his dictation. There was no magical access to knowledge.
 

CrochetOverCoffee

Ask me anything about the church of Christ.
Nah, that's not the way it worked. God did not talk to these authors and they did not take his dictation. There was no magical access to knowledge.

I take it that you do not believe that the Bible is the inerrant inspired word of God? Why don't you explain your reasoning, please? What is it that makes you say that the Bible is not inspired? (Inspired, by the way, means "breathed into", in a religious context meaning "breathed into by God".) And if there was no supernatural access to knowledge, how did the apostles on Pentecost speak to the crowd in languages they had never learned? How did Moses write a book with civil health codes in it without including all of the medical mistakes common to Egyptian physicians? There are a lot of instances in the Bible that show it could not have been written by human knowledge. Entire books have been written about them, in fact. So please, tell me how you can say that the Bible is merely human in origin?

Here's one of those books, Surveying The Evidence (free PDF). https://apologeticspress.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Surveying-the-Evidence.pdf Hopefully this will give you some insight into the inspiration of the Bible and the existence of God.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Up until the 19th century, no major Christian group taught that the scriptures were 100% inerrant. When some did, it was an overreaction against modernism that was the catalyst for some to take that position, which really doesn't make much sense because there's so many what theologians call "variations" found within.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I take it that you do not believe that the Bible is the inerrant inspired word of God? Why don't you explain your reasoning, please?
You can't say it's inerrant if there are errors. There are scientific errors, historical errors, and contradictions between the different authors. Now, this doesn't mean it isn't inspired. But inspired doesn't mean inerrant. Furthermore, it doesn't mean we can't use it to draw closer to God and to become better individuals. Inerrancy is simply unnecessary.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
I take it that you do not believe that the Bible is the inerrant inspired word of God? Why don't you explain your reasoning, please? What is it that makes you say that the Bible is not inspired? (Inspired, by the way, means "breathed into", in a religious context meaning "breathed into by God".) And if there was no supernatural access to knowledge, how did the apostles on Pentecost speak to the crowd in languages they had never learned? How did Moses write a book with civil health codes in it without including all of the medical mistakes common to Egyptian physicians? There are a lot of instances in the Bible that show it could not have been written by human knowledge. Entire books have been written about them, in fact. So please, tell me how you can say that the Bible is merely human in origin?

Here's one of those books, Surveying The Evidence (free PDF). https://apologeticspress.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Surveying-the-Evidence.pdf Hopefully this will give you some insight into the inspiration of the Bible and the existence of God.


Which Bible are you referring to? Throughout Christian history, different denominations have had different collections of texts that they believed were given by God. For instance, the Syriac churches NT canon did not include 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation until 616 AD.
Aphrahat, includes 3rd Corinthians as part of its canon.

Eusebius, secretary to Constantine the Great, excluded 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation from what he considered canon.
 

CrochetOverCoffee

Ask me anything about the church of Christ.
I'm going to make this a reply to several, and so quote none.

Yes, I believe that the translations we have today are the complete Bible, as God wanted us to have it. No, I do not believe there are any errors in most English language translations. (I can't speak to other languages.) I do believe that there are a few errors in some of the most modern translations (NLT comes to mind), and that they ended up there due to special interests getting involved. But where the only intention of the translators was actually to translate, and given that they used source material that was complete and correct (perfect, to use a Biblical term), that their translations do not contain errors.

Now let's define errors. Error does not include typos, misspellings, word choices (has vs. hath) or transpositions. Error would mean things like denying the existence of cedar trees, or including the medical malpractice that was ancient Egyptian medicine. Error would include things like changing "for the remission of sins" to "because of the remission of sins", as the Greek word eis means unto or into and does not indicate a causal relationship. Error also does not include the existence of the miraculous. Science cannot test that which is supernatural, but that does not preclude its existence.

So, why do I believe that the entire Bible is the inerrant, inspired word of God? Because it does not contain contradictions, scientific or historical errors. If it makes a statement which can be tested, it will pass that test. So tell me, where is the error? Show them to us and we can discuss if they are truly errors.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @CrochetOverCoffee

@CrochetOverCoffee said "As for the books commonly called the Apocrypha, those who organized the books of the Bible into a single volume had certain criteria for including the ones they did, and excluding those they did not. Among these were contradictions of plain doctrine, frivolous details, contradiction of history, and conspicuous stylistic differences pointing to inauthenticity." (Post #30)

I have interest in the specific history you allude to regarding the adoption of the western canon (as opposed to the various other canons, e.g. eastern, catholic cannon, protestant canon, syrian, etc.)

Can you provide some historic details and examples of actual discussions of "those who organized the books of the Bible into a single volume" and their "criteria for including the ones they did" regarding "contradictions of plain doctrine, frivolous details, contradiction of history, and ....inauthenticity" that you alluded to?

What specific people are you referring to?
What is it they actually said regarding their criteria you say they used?
Why did they exclude specific books?
For example, Why did they say they excluded enoch when Jude quoted from it?
For example, Why did they say they excluded Hermas when it was in the earlier Sinaiticus?

Individuals from time to time will represent these unnamed individuals and without quoting who they are and exactly what they said. I am interested in who you claim these people are and what they actually said as they "organized the books of the Bible into a single volume".

thanks in advance for offering us additional details regarding this specific claim you made.

Clear
(ειδρφυδρω)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
So, why do I believe that the entire Bible is the inerrant, inspired word of God? Because it does not contain contradictions, scientific or historical errors. If it makes a statement which can be tested, it will pass that test. So tell me, where is the error? Show them to us and we can discuss if they are truly errors.
OK, check out the four Gospels account of the women at Jesus' tomb as no two accounts match in their details. The general narratives do match but not the details. Also, in the Tanakh, the accounts of the Flood don't match on the details, nor do the census.

Please do not make an idol out of scriptures as God is perfect, imo, but God is not the Bible. Yes, it is highly valuable as I read it every day of the week as part of my morning prayers, but it ain't perfect.
 
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