The purpose of Life

[Abdemem]

When we look closer to the holy quran, and serach to understand the divine message in the holly text, anyone will surely discover so many wonderful facts which may change his life:
Please be patient to hear the presentation of Pr Jeffrey Lang, an eminent American Mathematic Professor and his reaction once he read the following text:
Sourate Al Baqara 2
Verset 30. And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

 

[WalterTrull]

The purpose of life is summed up in the phrase "I am that I am."

 

[osgart]

In the name of God what is done to other people who dont believe?

And how is that fulfilling?

Ideologies aint the purpose of life.

Live and let live. To be who you truly are is the purpose of life. To live according as one deserves to live.

Its completely what you make of it.

The purpose of life is to give as deserves.
And to deserve much.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When we look closer to the holy quran, and serach to understand the divine message in the holly text, anyone will surely discover so many wonderful facts which may change his life:
Please be patient to hear the presentation of Pr Jeffrey Lang, an eminent American Mathematic Professor and his reaction once he read the following text:
Sourate Al Baqara 2
Verset 30. And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

The purpose of life is to die. The purpose of death is to teach us how to live. Anything in between of the spirit, religion, or value helps us while we are living. But once dead, thats it; lights out; ash to ash and dust to dust. Whether we are reborn, I feel is up for grabs. If we are, at least we have more of a chance to learn about life and death to get to that point of acceptance.

Outside of that, I dont see another way to see life after death. Some see NDE but that just shows an altered state in this life. Forgone conclusion.

 

[osgart]

And if earth read like a book what would personal experience tell. Would i believe my experiences over words on a page?

The motive of seeing things as they are, would that not be the highest motive? To not be fooled. To put our intuitions to the test. To test anything claiming to be The Truth.

 

[Salvador]

The purpose of life is summed up in the phrase "I am that I am."

That's a pretty good summary of life's purpose. I'd say something along the lines of life's purpose is whatever a person wishes to make his/her purpose in life. The common purposes of life I've seen people have is altruism, the pursuit of knowledge, experiencing worldly pleasures, self-preservation, or even perhaps just simply the perpetuation of one's own genetic code.

 

[Clear]

POST ONE OF TWO

When we look closer to the holy quran, and serach to understand the divine message in the holly text, anyone will surely discover so many wonderful facts which may change his life: Please be patient to hear the presentation of Pr Jeffrey Lang, an eminent American Mathematic Professor and his reaction once he read the following text: Sourate Al Baqara 2
Verset 30. And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

Hi Abdemem, Welcome to the forum. I hope you find thoughts and ideas and concepts that will benefit your lifes’ journey. Certainly, trying to understand one anothers point of view is helpful to the world. Having said that, I suppose that you already realize that all of us react to data based on our personal context. Dr. Jeffrey Langs reaction from the context of a Math Professor will be different than mine as a historian or that of a medical clinician.

THE GREAT CONTROVERSY CONCERNING GOD/ALLAHS' PLAN - VERSIONS
When I read the various versions (there are multiple differing translations of sura #2) of these verses, I cannot help but place them inside the context of parallel versions of this text from early Judeo-Christian textual traditions surrounding the great controversy regarding Gods’/Allahs’ plan, which was to take existing spirits, and place them into a mortal condition (mortality) where they would receive moral and social tutoring as part of a preparation to gain moral wisdom such that they could ultimately live in a social heaven in harmony and unity forever.

The great controversy in the Christian/Jewish narratives was that God/Allahs' plan would involve free will and the misuse of this free will such that the complaint is that if the plan Goes forward, much of mankind will do many terrible things in disobedience to correct principles. They would harm and hurt and oppress one another. After reassuring the inhabitants of heaven that his plan is best, God/Allah moves forward and prepares to place Adams spirit into his Body to inaugurate this plan for mortality.

The early Christian and Jewish and Islamic text then come to a doctrinal crossroad where they all meet in agreement on the tradition that God/Allah instructs the inhabitants of heaven to honor the Spirit of Adam. This is when Lucifer/Satan/Iblis refuses to honor Adam and is cast down with his followers and the reason for his enmity against God and against Adam (and the rest of us). There are many, many textual parallels between Jewish, Christian and Islamic Texts that refer to these discrete traditions. For examples :

Sura 2, vs 30 per the O.P. : “…when thy Lord said to the angels, I am going to place a ruler in the earth, they said : Wilt thou place it in such as make mischief in it and shed blood?”

The Christian record “Discourse on Abbaton” relates another version of this same pre-creation controversy that IF God carried his plan to morally educate these spirits forward, man would do great evil upon the earth while experiencing the good. In this textual historical narrative, an angel was sent by the Father to obtain soil from this earth (from which the Father was to mold a body of a man in his own image and likeness). In metaphorical language, “the soil” complained : “I swear unto thee by Him Who sent thee to Me, that if thou takest me to Him, He will mold me into a form, and I shall become a man, and a living soul. And very many sins shall come forth from my heart (or, body), and many fornications, and slanderous abuse, and jealousy, and hatred and contention shall come forth from his hand, and many murders and sheddings of blood shall come from from his hand.” (D on A)

The controversy here is that, though the spirits of mankind will learn the consequences of evil by their own experience, this plan will cause great suffering as well.

The Enochian literature has it’s own version of the controversy Sura 2, vs 30 referred to. In this version, three ministering angels complain to God/Allah after it is clear evils will occur during this mortal tutoring : “They said before the Holy One, blessed be he, ‘Lord of the Universe, did not the primeval ones give you good advice when they said, Do not create man!’ The Holy One, blessed be he, replied, ‘I have made and will sustain him; I will carry and deliver him.’ 3rd Enoch 4:6-7

Though the plan involved inherent evil and risk that certain spirits would choose evil, the plan involved a return to a primeval state as well.


THE REFUSAL TO HONOR ADAM - VERSIONS
Another theme in the Holy Quran that parallels early Judeo-Christian texts is verse 34. The Quran refers to the honoring of Adam and Lucifer/Satan/Iblis’ refusal that results, ultimately, in Lucifer/Iblis’ rebellion and then in his banishment from heaven.

Sura 2:34 says : ‘And when we said to the angels, bow down (honor) Adam, they submitted, but Iblis (Lucifer/Satan) [did not]. He refused and was proud and he became one of the unfaithful.”

This refusal to honor Adam was also an early orthodox teaching in early Christian and Jewish texts.

For examples: Sedrach relates : Quote: “You commanded your angels to worship [honor] Adam, but he who was first among the angels disobeyed your order and did not worship him: and so you banished him because he transgressed your commandment and did not come forth (to worship) the creation of your hands." (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7)

The Christian text “Life of Adam and Eve” relates the same incident : Speaking to Adam, the Devil said : Quote: “ ...because of you I am expelled and deprived of my glory which I had in the heavens in the midst of angels, and because of you I was cast out onto the earth.” 2 Adam answered, “What have I done to you, and what is my blame with you? Ch 13 “The devil replied,...It is because of you that I have been thrown out of there. 2 When .......Michael brought you and made (us) worship you in the sight of God, and the Lord God said, ‘Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.’ Ch 14 3 And I answered, ‘I do not worship Adam.’ ...’Why do you compel me? I will not worship one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to worship me.’ 15 1 When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to worship him. (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 12: 1-2, 13:13, 14:2-3; 15:1-3; 16:1-3)

The early Christian Text “Cave of Treasures” relates : Quote: “And when the prince of the lower order of angels saw what great majesty had been given unto Adam, he was jealous of him from that day, and he did not wish to worship him. And he said unto his hosts, "Ye shall not worship him, and ye shall not praise him with the angels. It is meet that ye should worship me, because I am fire and spirit; and not that I should worship a thing of dust, which hath been fashioned of fine dust."

Jewish Enoch (syncretic) relates, in the context of this Lucifer’s rebellion : Quote: “ ...the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it. ....And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam. (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)

Jewish Haggadah (having Talmudic origins) also relates : Quote: “The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels...After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven,....refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, “You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (The Haggadah -The Fall of Satan)

The text then relates the "battle of wits" between Lucifers spirit and Adam's spirit where Lucifer is bested and loses "face". (an enlarged and clearer version of sura 2:31 in the quran)

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

 

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POST TWO OF TWO

Christian Bartholomew also confirms the story as Lucifer says : Quote: “And when I came from the ends of the world, Michael said to me: ‘Worship the image of God which he has made in his own likeness.’ But I said: ‘I am fire of fire. I was the first angel to be formed, and shall I worship clay and matter?” And Michael said to me: ‘Worship, lest god be angry with you.’ I answered: ‘God will not be angry with me, but I will set up my throne over against his throne, and shall be as he is [Isa. 14:14f]. ‘ then god was angry with me and cast me down,...” (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)


This doctrinal controversy is not simply Jewish and Christian in it’s nature, but it’s also confirmed by other verses in the Sixth Century Quran text : Quote: "..And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him." So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators. (Sura 15:28-31)


In Sura 20 : “ And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. (Sura 20:116)

In Sura 38 : “ (Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay". So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. (Sura 38:71-74)

In Sura 7 : Quote: “And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (Sura 7:11-12)



In Sura 18 : Quote: “And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord.... (Sura 18:50)


The point in repeating this doctrine from so many different ancient sources and versions is to show that this specific controversy and it’s relation to the doctrine of the “Origin” of Satan, is VERY ancient, the doctrine is VERY widespread among a large group of ancient literature, and the doctrine is VERY “orthodox” to the ancient Christians and other religious groups as well.

Another point to be made from a historical context is that the Honor due to Adam was perfectly logical in view of Adams’ important role in carrying out God/Allahs’ plan to inaugurate mortality for mankind.

It ought to be perfectly clear that as milestones were reached in the moving forward of God’s Plan for the spirits of mankind, the inauguration of mortality was an incredibly important phase that all spirits had long been anticipating. Thus, the “honoring of Adam” was not simply an arbitrary and spontaneous “office party” thrown at a whim, but it was a recognition of the culmination of organization and creation over a great deal of time and the inauguration of the opening phase of mortality of all mankind..

In any case, I hope your lifes' journey is good and that the models you develop as to what you believe are good and help you make sense of what is happening in mortality.

Clear
τωσεδρω

 

[ObjectOfMercy]

According to the Christian Bible, which I believe is the Word of God as it is written so, the purpose of life is to worship God. Furthermore it states God's creation was made by Christ and for Christ.
John 1:10-14 (speaking of Christ)

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[ObjectOfMercy]

Above I testified that the world was made by Christ. Now I add from Colossians 1 to show that the world was both made by Christ and for Him... (notice verse 16, but by all means read all the verses for context)

Colossians 1:14-19
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

 

[FirstandAmistad]

I don't believe there is a great purpose to life. But I view that as more liberating than dreary. It's up to each person to decide how to live their lives and how to endow them with purpose. It doesn't have to be something grand. In my mind, as along as you aren't hurting anyone (who doesn't want to be hurt), there aren't any wrong ways to live. And as long as you find value in your life, then your life has value. Humans don't need specific ideologies or practices to give us purpose. We can find it in our communities, ambitions, nature, and in ourselves.

I also really love a quote by Alan Watts about this:

"The meaning of life is just to be alive. It is so plain and so obvious and so simple. And yet, everybody rushes around in a great panic as if it were necessary to achieve something beyond themselves."

 

[Abdemem]

I don't believe there is a great purpose to life. But I view that as more liberating than dreary. It's up to each person to decide how to live their lives and how to endow them with purpose. It doesn't have to be something grand. In my mind, as along as you aren't hurting anyone (who doesn't want to be hurt), there aren't any wrong ways to live. And as long as you find value in your life, then your life has value. Humans don't need specific ideologies or practices to give us purpose. We can find it in our communities, ambitions, nature, and in ourselves.

I also really love a quote by Alan Watts about this:

"The meaning of life is just to be alive. It is so plain and so obvious and so simple. And yet, everybody rushes around in a great panic as if it were necessary to achieve something beyond themselves."

What is left of every desire (the allowed area to fulfill it) will bring bliss and safety to each one of us.
For that reason Allah says in [Surat Al Qasas, ayah 50]:

And who is more astray than one who follows his own lusts, without guidance from Allah?

 

[Abdemem]

Above I testified that the world was made by Christ. Now I add from Colossians 1 to show that the world was both made by Christ and for Him... (notice verse 16, but by all means read all the verses for context)

Colossians 1:14-19
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Jesus PBUH was a great prophet, neither God nor son of God, and he always glorified his Creator, besides he will return to earth, as a great sign of the end times, to rectify the belief of Christians.

 

[Abdemem]

POST TWO OF TWO

Christian Bartholomew also confirms the story as Lucifer says : Quote: “And when I came from the ends of the world, Michael said to me: ‘Worship the image of God which he has made in his own likeness.’ But I said: ‘I am fire of fire. I was the first angel to be formed, and shall I worship clay and matter?” And Michael said to me: ‘Worship, lest god be angry with you.’ I answered: ‘God will not be angry with me, but I will set up my throne over against his throne, and shall be as he is [Isa. 14:14f]. ‘ then god was angry with me and cast me down,...” (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)


This doctrinal controversy is not simply Jewish and Christian in it’s nature, but it’s also confirmed by other verses in the Sixth Century Quran text : Quote: "..And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him." So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators. (Sura 15:28-31)


In Sura 20 : “ And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. (Sura 20:116)

In Sura 38 : “ (Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay". So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. (Sura 38:71-74)

In Sura 7 : Quote: “And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (Sura 7:11-12)



In Sura 18 : Quote: “And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord.... (Sura 18:50)


The point in repeating this doctrine from so many different ancient sources and versions is to show that this specific controversy and it’s relation to the doctrine of the “Origin” of Satan, is VERY ancient, the doctrine is VERY widespread among a large group of ancient literature, and the doctrine is VERY “orthodox” to the ancient Christians and other religious groups as well.

Another point to be made from a historical context is that the Honor due to Adam was perfectly logical in view of Adams’ important role in carrying out God/Allahs’ plan to inaugurate mortality for mankind.

It ought to be perfectly clear that as milestones were reached in the moving forward of God’s Plan for the spirits of mankind, the inauguration of mortality was an incredibly important phase that all spirits had long been anticipating. Thus, the “honoring of Adam” was not simply an arbitrary and spontaneous “office party” thrown at a whim, but it was a recognition of the culmination of organization and creation over a great deal of time and the inauguration of the opening phase of mortality of all mankind..

In any case, I hope your lifes' journey is good and that the models you develop as to what you believe are good and help you make sense of what is happening in mortality.

Clear
τωσεδρω

Mohamed PBUH being the last prophet on earth, had rectified all previous beliefs and made the necessary corrections, through The angel Gabriel who dictated to him the divine words: the quran, the latter summarizes all the divine messages, it remains the divine word intact that has never been altered by the hand of man as was the case for the Bible and the Torah, or a lot of texts have been modified or hidden.

 

[Abdemem]

That's a pretty good summary of life's purpose. I'd say something along the lines of life's purpose is whatever a person wishes to make his/her purpose in life. The common purposes of life I've seen people have is altruism, the pursuit of knowledge, experiencing worldly pleasures, self-preservation, or even perhaps just simply the perpetuation of one's own genetic code.

Thanks Salvador, surely the video replies all questions we are asking ourselves: Dr Jeffrey Lang has been successfull to present our internal concerns and worries...

 

[Tumah]

Jewish Enoch (syncretic) relates, in the context of this Lucifer’s rebellion : Quote: “ ...the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it. ....And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam. (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)

Jewish Haggadah (having Talmudic origins) also relates : Quote: “The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels...After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven,....refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, “You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (The Haggadah -The Fall of Satan)

The text then relates the "battle of wits" between Lucifers spirit and Adam's spirit where Lucifer is bested and loses "face". (an enlarged and clearer version of sura 2:31 in the quran)

I want to point out that 2 Enoch is about as Jewish as the NT, which is to say, not very.

The part you quoted from the "Haggadah" is not actually from the "Haggadah" which is actually a book we read during the Passover meal. Perhaps what you meant to say was "Aggadah" and you seem to be quoting a book called "The Legends of the Jews". I do not know where he collected these particular stories from. Some of the elements of the stories parallel known and extant Aggadah. Other parts do not. What is certainly clear is that it is wrong to call this "Talmudic" in origin as very few of these elements are found in the Talmud.

Also, please refrain from using the phrase Judeo-Christian, unless you are ready to use the phrase Christo-Islamic.

 

[Tumah]

When we look closer to the

I just want to thank you for not flooding the New Threads box with pro-Islamic threads and keeping it to one topic at a time.

 

[Flankerl]

Falafel and Shakshuka.

Everything else is commentary.

 

[Clear]

I want to point out that 2 Enoch is about as Jewish as the NT, which is to say, not very.

The part you quoted from the "Haggadah" is not actually from the "Haggadah" which is actually a book we read during the Passover meal. Perhaps what you meant to say was "Aggadah" and you seem to be quoting a book called "The Legends of the Jews". I do not know where he collected these particular stories from. Some of the elements of the stories parallel known and extant Aggadah. Other parts do not. What is certainly clear is that it is wrong to call this "Talmudic" in origin as very few of these elements are found in the Talmud.
Also, please refrain from using the phrase Judeo-Christian, unless you are ready to use the phrase Christo-Islamic.

Hi Tumah –

I am sorry I took so long to respond. I am on a long vacation and still traveling.

1) Thank you for reminding me of that there are educated people who DO realize that there is a distinction between haggadah and Aggadah and other Jewish historical narratives who do NOT lump the early Jewish tradition narratives under the same name. I think that the Encyclopedia Judaica (2007) describes the problem of usage by saying Aggadah is “notoriously difficult to define”.

The forward of Ginzbergs original tome “Legends of the Jews” explains that Ginzberg undertook the task of arranging the vast literature that came under the term “Haggadah” (as Ginzberg and the Jewish Publication society were using the term) into a chronological order and he created his 6 volume tome. While I can easily grant your point that Ginzberg and the Jewish Publication society and modern descriptions in Wikipedia, and Jewish law books have come to use the term differently and more loosely than you, AND, while your use may be more accurate, still their usage may have simply become a more accepted standard or "typical" usage.

For example, Bacher says the word Haggadah simply means “scripture related”, Aggadah is understood as “relating” events in the past [to scripture].

The Jewish encyclopedia says that the important consideration in “Aggadah” differs in the “telling” of the narrative such that it “touches the human heart” and brings heaven “down to earth and to elevate man to heaven”. While their usage differs from yours, I can see how your usage can be more correct in your worldviews while the Jewish encyclopedia may simply refer to a more common usage as language evolves among the evolving groups that use it.

My current model on this point is that when these early writers were using the word Haggadah to describe these early legends, they did not use the distinction you use (which may be technically correct, but simply not how they used the term) since Aggadah includes narratives, and early legends, and doctrines, etc. I certainly do not mind corrections to that model as I gain more data.

IF Haggadah and Aggadah are used by the these early Jewish writers and publishers almost synonymously then I can’t fault their usage. IF the Talmud and Mishna also has it’s earliest origin in early Jewish oral legends that become written down, then they also, has their source in legend and are, to that extent aggadic in origin. It is a technical distinction we are making, but not particularly useful for the people who were going to read such texts. I think this is probably why Ginzberg and the Jewish Publication Society were not belaboring the distinction nor did I.


2) Regarding your second point, ie that second enoch is “about as Jewish as the NT [New Testament]." I think this is a fair description.

While the origin of the Enochian Literature comes from distinctly Jewish sources (i.e. 1 Enoch), just as the New Testament originates from Jewish sources (Jesus and the early apostles were Jewish), the growing Christian movement adopted and added to such early narratives to the point that it is often difficult to separate what is early Jewish and what is later Christian additions. This is why I used the word “syncretic” beside the 2 Enoch reference I used.

Much of the early literature is syncretic. For example, the early Islamic historian Al-Thalabi was a wonderful textual historian of early Islamic history, but he sourced much of his history from Jewish sources. Thus, much of his early narratives are “judeo-islamic” as they originate in Judaism, but are tainted as they become adopted by Islamic re-telling just as Christians adopted much of the Jewish sourced literature (e.g. the Old Testament) and interpreted the OT through their own worldviews and then describe those interpretations and narratives using their own ideological lenses. The text thus is described as a “Judeo-Christian” text in it's adoption and usage.

Thus, regarding your request “…please refrain from using the phrase Judeo-Christian, unless you are ready to use the phrase Christo-Islamic.” Please be at peace. I am not using the Term “Judeo-Christian” as a slight to any one of the many types of Judaisms. It is a historical use I am referring to. I am perfectly find using the term “Christo-Islamic” since some of these narrative ARE shared between Islam and Christianity.

In fact, that was my point to the O.P.. The early Jewish, Islamic, and Christian historical narratives regarding the honoring of Adam, that tell the same story and offer the same historical narrative are “Judeo-Islamo-Christian” in their character. If the story had originated in Germany, I might have used the term “Judeo-germanic”.

Tumah, thank you so much for what you added to the discussion. I very much appreciate having been reminded that the terms we use often have meaning beyond their typical usage and that they are used differently by different groups of religionists. Thanks.


I hope your spiritual journey is wonderful Tumah

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