The Purpose of Parents

[Rival]

So today I was in another argument with my dad. His room is a tip, it's truly filthy and messy in there, but as a child I was taught to be tidy and clean. He says he doesn't know what the problem is and I ended up screaming at him that parents are meant to be virtuous and moral and have a good influence on their kids. Why is it alright for parents to say 'do this' and not do it themselves?

Then I've come to realise that perhaps modern society doesn't see it this way.

We seem to think that virtue is something one learns just from being alive, or from school, or others. Whereas for me, I think it's the prime purpose of a parent to be good and to teach virtue to their kids. Whether that's in the form of religion, other ethics etc. We in the West now seem to have this blasé attitude of 'Let the kids figure it out', and I've come to realise this seriously has not worked.

So what in your opinion is the purpose of a parent, other than to feed and clothe their kids? How far should their teaching go? We read in various scriptures things about how to relate to children and parents and it's full of virtue and religion.

Nowadays I hear 'Teaching your kids to be religious is brainwashing them!' and I disagree. I wish someone had taught me religion.

I put this in General Debates because I'm thinking beyond religion here, and more about hypocritical parents in general.

 

[Stevicus]

My own parents got divorced when I was 6. They were both alcoholics. My father was a quiet drunk and pretty much left my brother and me alone, while my mother was angry and upset most of the time. I also spent a lot of time with my maternal grandparents, who took up a kind of surrogate parent role that my mother had abandoned. My father gave it an honest try, but in retrospect, I can see that he was broken and damaged during those years.

I don't recall that they really taught me that much. My grandparents were probably stronger influencers in that regard, especially in the area of religion (they were devout Catholics), although it probably confused me more than anything else. Ironically, my dad came from a family who hated Catholics, yet he converted to Catholicism when he married my mother, who had gone to 12 years of Catholic school and had lingering resentments towards the Church which would ultimately cause her to leave it. She was a devotee of a televangelist for a while, and ultimately converted to Hinduism. My dad remarried a woman who was a Methodist, so he became a Methodist.

I then started to drift more and more away from religion. I don't think there was anything they could have taught me about it anyway. I don't know if it's worse to go full tilt in teaching kids religion, or not teaching them at all. But the kind of half-hearted, flaky, wishy-washy, and inconsistent ways of my parents didn't really do much.

 

[rocala]

Hmmm, several points here.

Why did you start the post with the inappropriate word "so". Identity crisis? I thought you were English.

"how to relate to children and parents". "Teaching your kids to be religious". "'Let the kids figure it out''. "screaming at him that parents are meant to be virtuous and moral and have a good influence on their kids."

Big shock time, but did you ever consider that you are one of the adults now, not one of the kids? It is not the dig that you might think it is, I often made the same mistake. Growing up is not confined to youngsters.

 

[Rival]

But the kind of half-hearted, flaky, wishy-washy, and inconsistent ways of my parents didn't really do much.

This is the problem.

Hmmm, several points here.

Why did you start the post with the inappropriate word "so". Identity crisis? I thought you were English.

"how to relate to children and parents". "Teaching your kids to be religious". "'Let the kids figure it out''. "screaming at him that parents are meant to be virtuous and moral and have a good influence on their kids."

Big shock time, but did you ever consider that you are one of the adults now, not one of the kids? It is not the dig that you might think it is, I often made the same mistake. Growing up is not confined to youngsters.

As long as he's my parent, he's meant to have a good influence on me. That's surely what parents are for. No matter how old one is, one is meant to be able to turn to one's parents for guidance. If you knew my dad you'd get it. He's an alcoholic and everyone yells at him, because he pushes you to it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

So today I was in another argument with my dad. His room is a tip, it's truly filthy and messy in there, but as a child I was taught to be tidy and clean. He says he doesn't know what the problem is and I ended up screaming at him that parents are meant to be virtuous and moral and have a good influence on their kids. Why is it alright for parents to say 'do this' and not do it themselves?

Then I've come to realise that perhaps modern society doesn't see it this way.

We seem to think that virtue is something one learns just from being alive, or from school, or others. Whereas for me, I think it's the prime purpose of a parent to be good and to teach virtue to their kids. Whether that's in the form of religion, other ethics etc. We in the West now seem to have this blasé attitude of 'Let the kids figure it out', and I've come to realise this seriously has not worked.

So what in your opinion is the purpose of a parent, other than to feed and clothe their kids? How far should their teaching go? We read in various scriptures things about how to relate to children and parents and it's full of virtue and religion.

Nowadays I hear 'Teaching your kids to be religious is brainwashing them!' and I disagree. I wish someone had taught me religion.

I put this in General Debates because I'm thinking beyond religion here, and hypocritical parents in general.

I am going to make an intuitive leap, based on partial information. There was a time three generations ago when children were to be seen and not heard. Then came the great wars, lots more technology, lots more fear about the future and a cultural shift in which adults began to think of children as little adults. At least that is how it seems to me. That was when lots of new toys began appearing to inspire children. Thinks like clay and erector sets etc. We also improved in hoping children could do anything and find their niche instead of us telling them they had to be this or that or to do a particular occupation. I think there was an improvement in seeing children as people, but maybe there was also a loss of direction. There is a balance. If you train a child to be a lawyer but they don't have talent, then your direction is misguided. On the other side of the scale if you don't train them to be something then they may not ever be anything.

 

[rocala]

He's an alcoholic and everyone yells at him, because he pushes you to it.

and this achieves what, precisely?

 

[Rival]

and this achieves what, precisely?

It doesn't. My point isn't this. My point is he's a crap parent. Why are there so many of them and what can we do about it? How can we make more folks realise that it's not the state's or school's job to raise your kids - it's yours.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

From a realistic/naturalistic standpoint, I think the prime "purpose" of parents the world over (even in the case of animals) is to simply create the next generation - propagate the species. And then for some animals (humans included in this I feel), the purpose extends to preparing that next generation for survival in the conditions the parents themselves have come to know and navigate.

Humans tend to use our moralism, or virtue to communicate with and attempt to control/corral one another - this is much like other animals who use various cues to inform the rest of the members of their species what is and is not acceptable.

Both points above taken in tandem, we have an expectation that our human parents might point us in the "right direction" within this realm of "morality" - but there is obviously no true "requirement" that they do so. A parent could very well decide that they want to instruct their child in the ways of human detriment and destruction. Nothing at all prohibits a person from taking this as their tack in life.

The best we can do is to be the example of what we want to see from the world, and attempt to get others to see the virtues in what we do ourselves. Beyond this, there is no actual "purpose" you can point to and try to force someone to adhere to. Such a thing can only ever be subjective, and as such, you can only hope to convince someone that your opinion on it is the correct one to hold.

 

[Rival]

From a realistic/naturalistic standpoint, I think the prime "purpose" of parents the world over (even in the case of animals) is to simply create the next generation - propagate the species. And then for some animals (humans included in this I feel), the purpose extends to preparing that next generation for survival in the conditions the parents themselves have come to know and navigate.

Humans tend to use our moralism, or virtue to communicate with and attempt to control/corral one another - this is much like other animals who use various cues to inform the rest of the members of their species what is and is not acceptable.

Both points above taken in tandem, we have an expectation that our human parents might point us in the "right direction" within this realm of "morality" - but there is obviously no true "requirement" that they do so. A parent could very well decide that they want to instruct their child in the ways of human detriment and destruction. Nothing at all prohibits a person from taking this as their tack in life.

The best we can do is to be the example of what we want to see from the world, and attempt to get others to see the virtues in what we do ourselves. Beyond this, there is no actual "purpose" you can point to and try to force someone to adhere to. Such a thing can only ever be subjective, and as such, you can only hope to convince someone that your opinion on it is the correct one to hold.

But you would agree that teaching your child to be tidy and then being messy yourself is hypocritical and sending a bad message?

 

[Spirit of Light]

So today I was in another argument with my dad. His room is a tip, it's truly filthy and messy in there, but as a child I was taught to be tidy and clean. He says he doesn't know what the problem is and I ended up screaming at him that parents are meant to be virtuous and moral and have a good influence on their kids. Why is it alright for parents to say 'do this' and not do it themselves?

Then I've come to realise that perhaps modern society doesn't see it this way.

We seem to think that virtue is something one learns just from being alive, or from school, or others. Whereas for me, I think it's the prime purpose of a parent to be good and to teach virtue to their kids. Whether that's in the form of religion, other ethics etc. We in the West now seem to have this blasé attitude of 'Let the kids figure it out', and I've come to realise this seriously has not worked.

So what in your opinion is the purpose of a parent, other than to feed and clothe their kids? How far should their teaching go? We read in various scriptures things about how to relate to children and parents and it's full of virtue and religion.

Nowadays I hear 'Teaching your kids to be religious is brainwashing them!' and I disagree. I wish someone had taught me religion.

I put this in General Debates because I'm thinking beyond religion here, and hypocritical parents in general.

My understanding of the purpose of parents are that they are there to prepare you for life. Unfortunatly some parents does not have the skills or the ability to be the guide a person need.
And of course there can be sickness that hinder the parents to be there for their kids as much as it is needed.

 

[rocala]

My point is he's a crap parent.

Well I am far from you, but I know a couple of things.
Your many comments on this forum show that this man did not raise an idiot, or more importantly, in my book, an uncaring person. That coupled with the fact that you choose to be there, says something. I have known more than my fair share of total slobs and I know without a shadow of a doubt that there is always an unhappiness behind it.

I wish that I could find the source but there is a prayer along the lines of 'please forgive me for projecting the anger that I feel for myself upon other people'.

It is a tough road dear Rival, but stick with it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

So what in your opinion is the purpose of a parent, other than to feed and clothe their kids? How far should their teaching go? We read in various scriptures things about how to relate to children and parents and it's full of virtue and religion.

Nowadays I hear 'Teaching your kids to be religious is brainwashing them!' and I disagree. I wish someone had taught me religion.

I put this in General Debates because I'm thinking beyond religion here, and hypocritical parents in general.

Hmm...there's a lot to unpack here, and I'm not sure our life experiences are similar enough to find common ground, but for what it's worth...

Parents are people. Flawed, and making it up as they go, much of the time. Dealing with kids, mortgages, their spouse, etc. So if you're really looking for parents...in the broadest possible sense...to teach 'virtue' (one of the thing I was hoping to unpack was what the heck THAT actually means) then you're actually encouraging more hypocrisy, not less. Parents aren't any more virtuous than any other members of society, on average.

Don't get me wrong, I look around at a lot of my fellow parents and I smack my head in dismay. I put a lot of effort into my relationship with my kids, and...so far...we are very close. Some people don't put in effort. Some others put in a whole heap of effort at trying to be their kids friends, and I just wonder what hole in themselves they're trying to fill. Surely, my job is to try and come out the other side of my kids childhood with well-balanced, well-adjusted young adults who I have a healthy and supportive relationship with, right?

But the whole bit about 'virtue' and 'religion'...I mean...we must just see these things completely differently, I think. I really have no idea what virtue is in the sense you're using the word, but I never found religion to be of much use in and of itself. As a culture carrier, perhaps, but otherwise...*shrugs*

Although my eldest daughter is currently reading Norse Mythology (Neil Gaiman)...does that count?

Worth noting, I'm not speaking about your particular circumstances here. Whilst people are all flawed, there are levels, and some simply shouldn't be parents. I won't judge yours based on a brief recount in a forum, but my comments here are just general in nature. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Rival]

Well I am far from you, but I know a couple of things.
Your many comments on this forum show that this man did not raise an idiot, or more importantly, in my book, an uncaring person. That coupled with the fact that you choose to be there, says something. I have known more than my fair share of total slobs and I know without a shadow of a doubt that there is always an unhappiness behind it.

I wish that I could find the source but there is a prayer along the lines of 'please forgive me for projecting the anger that I feel for myself upon other people'.

It is a tough road dear Rival, but stick with it.

I'm not choosing to be here, I just haven't the money to move.

He didn't raise me, mostly.

 

[pearl]

I don't know if it's worse to go full tilt in teaching kids religion, or not teaching them at all.

Ultimately the choice is theirs to make but they should at least know what it is they're saying no to.

 

[Rival]

Hmm...there's a lot to unpack here, and I'm not sure our life experiences are similar enough to find common ground, but for what it's worth...

Parents are people. Flawed, and making it up as they go, much of the time. Dealing with kids, mortgages, their spouse, etc. So if you're really looking for parents...in the broadest possible sense...to teach 'virtue' (one of the thing I was hoping to unpack was what the heck THAT actually means) then you're actually encouraging more hypocrisy, not less. Parents aren't any more virtuous than any other members of society, on average.

Don't get me wrong, I look around at a lot of my fellow parents and I smack my head in dismay. I put a lot of effort into my relationship with my kids, and...so far...we are very close. Some people don't put in effort. Some others put in a whole heap of effort at trying to be their kids friends, and I just wonder what hole in themselves they're trying to fill. Surely, my job is to try and come out the other side of my kids childhood with well-balanced, well-adjusted young adults who I have a healthy and supportive relationship with, right?

But the whole bit about 'virtue' and 'religion'...I mean...we must just see these things completely differently, I think. I really have no idea what virtue is in the sense you're using the word, but I never found religion to be of much use in and of itself. As a culture carrier, perhaps, but otherwise...*shrugs*

Although my eldest daughter is currently reading Norse Mythology (Neil Gaiman)...does that count?

Worth noting, I'm not speaking about your particular circumstances here. Whilst people are all flawed, there are levels, and some simply shouldn't be parents. I won't judge yours based on a brief recount in a forum, but my comments here are just general in nature. Hope that makes sense.

I mean parents are meant to have an active say in their kids' lives beyond food and clothing. To nurture them to be civilised, decent folks. To be self-disciplined, to reject the social ills of the day etc. To teach them lessons that will stick with them in life. To be strict. Yes, I think you've actually hit the problem - stop trying to be your kid's friend. Instil some actual, concrete values instead of this wishy-washy stuff I'm seeing today. Teach them to dress decently, to articulate themselves well, to be well-versed in the right social customs and culture. I honestly think this is rather standard.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Ultimately the choice is theirs to make but they should at least know what it is they're saying no to.

I agree to a point, but I'm also a little unsure what that really means in practise.

 

[rocala]

I'm not choosing to be here, I just haven't the money to move.

He didn't raise me, mostly.

But what is the real reason that you are still there? Please no bs about money. If the man became a sexual predator I am sure you would move quick enough.

 

[Rival]

But what is the real reason that you are still there? Please no bs about money. If the man became a sexual predator I am sure you would move quick enough.

It's money. I'm on welfare. I have no money to move.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I mean parents are meant to have an active say in their kids' lives beyond food and clothing. To nurture them to be civilised, decent folks. To be self-disciplined, to reject the social ills of the day etc. To teach them lessons that will stick with them in life. To be strict. Yes, I think you've actually hit the problem - stop trying to be your kid's friend. Instil some actual, concrete values instead of this wishy-washy stuff I'm seeing today. Teach them to dress decently, to articulate themselves well, to be well-versed in the right social customs and culture. I honestly think this is rather standard.

Basically I agree.
The guiding principle for me is to try and teach my girls to make good decisions when I'm not with them. It reminds me not to coddle them, and to encourage their independence.

My eldest (12) does a bunch of stuff some might frown at (she has a potty mouth, for one thing...) but she's also a lovely kid with a ready smile, and she treats people well. She has a good balance between conforming to social customs and culture, and seeing value in not slavishly following them. Still, the fact that she's a little more agreeable, and a little more of a follower means I get slightly more concerned about her than my middle child (10) who is a very strong personality, and has a very well established sense of self-worth and leadership.

But we'll see. There is no guide book, and every kid is different.

We're definitely stricter than most parents seem to be in some ways. Most of our peers would see us as somewhat 'strict'. But we're also pretty open and honest, and have long conversations with the kids about all sorts of pretty adult concepts, based on their questions. Is that good or bad? I dunno...good, I hope. It makes discussion about things like 'virtue' a little different, since in our house that would all be based around real-life examples or hypotheticals, I guess, rather than dogma. I don't mean that to denigrate religion, honestly, but I find it's not the identification of ideal behaviours which is the tricky part. It's the application of these in our daily lives. And teaching kids...or anyone...how to do that is a very tricky thing. Worthwhile, but tricky.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

But you would agree that teaching your child to be tidy and then being messy yourself is hypocritical and sending a bad message?

Yes, absolutely!