The purpose of worship

[lewisnotmiller]

Hi folks,

1)I'm an avowed atheism. If my presence here is even mildly annoying, I'll happily take a hike, but I had a question, which I wanted to ask in completely good faith.
2) I'm generalizing like crazy, but I'm aware my question will not be relevant to at least some of you.

Why would you worship something that is not aware of your worship?
I guess it's a slight variation on the 'worship of inanimate objects' question sometimes asked, since I'm happy enough to concede that everything is alive, in a sense. But to be clear I'm certainly not telling anyone they should worship anything.

I'm more trying to understand intent. Near as I can guess, for some people worship is about reminding oneself of their place in the universe, and perhaps doing so in a communal fashion (at least, ideally...obviously some pagans are self-reliant these days).

Am I close to the mark? Or missing the point?

Any insights welcomed to round out my basic understanding.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Trying to tread carefully, given that this is a DIR, but I am genuinely interested in this topic. Suffice to say, I'll pull back if anyone want me to.

Missing the point. Although you are pretty familiar with certain branches of Christianity, you are working with a very modern concept of 'Worship' which you seem to be conflating with 'Adoration' of some one, somewhere. That's not your fault, as its what a lot of other people seem to think that it is. Its not really adoration originally. Worship and Service are synonyms even today, though the meaning of 'Worship' has changed for many. Have you ever heard that terminology before, 'Gone to a church Service'? Does it destroy the meaning of 'Service' or does 'Service' not mean what you think it means? The terminology has very ancient roots, as the service is to one another 'God with us' etc. I can't speak for the modern terminology, and I can't speak for everyone. For me you'd be missing the point.

Thanks for responding. Not surprised that I'm missing the point. Am keenly aware of my ignorance in this area, to be honest.
Having said that, I wasn't trying to conflate my understanding of Christian worship (which is close enough to what you posted) with that of Pagan worship, but instead get an understanding of Pagan worship in and of itself.

This is kinda a shorthand description of what I currently think;

Near as I can guess, for some people worship is about reminding oneself of their place in the universe, and perhaps doing so in a communal fashion (at least, ideally...obviously some pagans are self-reliant these days).

So I'm thinking that pagan worship is more about...hmm...being humble and understanding one's place amongst the whole, as well as perhaps sharing this if such community is available. Not really about adoring God, or expecting God to even notice such worship.
More than happy for that very simplistic understanding to be corrected or added to, obviously. That's where my head is at though.

The best thing is to start with an example. What is communion? Its serving each other, and God in each other. There is a famous NT verse that asks "Can you love God who is invisible if you don't love your fellow human beings who are visible?" and the meaning is rhetorical. Adoration of God is empty except when you are serving others. There is no point in adoring an invisible, untouchable being. Its simply ridiculous, but you can adore others and God through doing so. If you serve your fellow human beings you have served God. There is little value to God for you to say 'I love God'. Its an insipid, hollow gesture. You have made no difference in anyone's life by saying so, so God is untouched. You have fed yourself and adored yourself but no one else.

I kinda get what you mean. Isn't that somewhat similar to my thoughts re: pagan worship though?

The intent of the kind of worship you are talking about is the intent to turn Christians into batteries for someone else's application. It literally keeps Christians misdirected from worshiping God.

Apart from how Christianity might have influenced my opinion and thoughts on churches, though, Christianity is of no interest to me (regarding this topic). I'm happy to just get an idea from any of our pagan folks here on how they see worship so I have a more direct view, rather than trying to 'translate' my views based on experience with other religions.

Again, thanks for taking some time to help me.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Hi folks,

1)I'm an avowed atheism. If my presence here is even mildly annoying, I'll happily take a hike, but I had a question, which I wanted to ask in completely good faith.
2) I'm generalizing like crazy, but I'm aware my question will not be relevant to at least some of you.

Why would you worship something that is not aware of your worship?
I guess it's a slight variation on the 'worship of inanimate objects' question sometimes asked, since I'm happy enough to concede that everything is alive, in a sense. But to be clear I'm certainly not telling anyone they should worship anything.

I'm more trying to understand intent. Near as I can guess, for some people worship is about reminding oneself of their place in the universe, and perhaps doing so in a communal fashion (at least, ideally...obviously some pagans are self-reliant these days).

Am I close to the mark? Or missing the point?

Any insights welcomed to round out my basic understanding.

As a denizen of this DIR, I'll take a shot at responding. Others will have to talk about their beliefs, I can't speak for them. But a respectful question deserves a respectful answer.

I'm an animist; every thing is/has spirit. Some of those spirits we can regard as other-than-human persons, because in the course of our daily lives we interact with them and their kinds. So we enter into a relationship with them, in some cases making offerings to them, or engaging with them as social equals (roughly--some of them clearly are not equal to us, some are much bigger, much more powerful, some are smaller, weaker), engaging in mutually beneficial transactions. This is especially true of the things we eat or otherwise use on a daily basis, or than might eat us.

I wouldn't call it adoration, or worship. Respect is a much better word; we offer our respect to the other-than-human-persons we interact with on a regular basis. We don't have to like each other, we don't even have to acknowledge each other much, except that we've got an agreement that humans will act in certain respectful ways toward the others, and the others will act in certain respectful ways towards humans.

Certainly, humans may offer adoration or worship towards aspects of the universe they find particularly worthy of that attention, but I don't do a lot of that myself. I admire it, I find it impressive, fascinating, etc., but I don't really worship. But I do thank the various entities in the world for being there for me, and I try to do things that benefit those others, just as I do with humans.

Now then, I understand your thought that inanimate things are not living, and aren't going to be aware...and in fact other living things really won't be aware, either. That's a Western, Education, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic (WEIRD) belief structure. I understand it because that's the culture I grew up in. But I find that the universe is alive, even the parts us Westerners say aren't, and the other inhabitants of the world can have their own volition, even if our science and thought patterns deny it. So, to me, I am not engaging with things that are not aware of my respectful actions toward them--they are aware; and sometimes, they engage in respectful actions towards me.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Now then, I understand your thought that inanimate things are not living, and aren't going to be aware...and in fact other living things really won't be aware, either. That's a Western, Education, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic (WEIRD) belief structure. I understand it because that's the culture I grew up in. But I find that the universe is alive, even the parts us Westerners say aren't, and the other inhabitants of the world can have their own volition, even if our science and thought patterns deny it. So, to me, I am not engaging with things that are not aware of my respectful actions toward them--they are aware; and sometimes, they engage in respectful actions towards me.

Thank-you for taking the time to respond so fully.
Understand that you're speaking for yourself, and have no interest in debating (even if the DIR rules allowed it) just trying to get different perspectives.
The awareness of the things you are respecting is interesting to me, in terms of how common that is amongst pagans.

 

[Quintessence]

Why would you worship something that is not aware of your worship?

Well, why do you go to movies when the movie isn't aware of you enjoying it?

It's really very simple: values. Awareness is completely irrelevant. Worship is an expression of the things you value, and it takes many forms. It can be expressions of gratitude. It can be immersing in something for the sheer pleasure and enjoyment of it. It can holding yourself to a particular principle or virtue in behavior and lifestyle. It's about weaving meaning and story into your life. Worship is joyful celebration, expression of gratitude, quiet humility. Being reminded of one's place is part of that, but it's also definitely more than that.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Well, why do you go to movies when the movie isn't aware of you enjoying it?

It's really very simple: values. Awareness is completely irrelevant. Worship is an expression of the things you value, and it takes many forms. It can be expressions of gratitude. It can be immersing in something for the sheer pleasure and enjoyment of it. It can holding yourself to a particular principle or virtue in behavior and lifestyle. It's about weaving meaning and story into your life. Worship is joyful celebration, expression of gratitude, quiet humility. Being reminded of one's place is part of that, but it's also definitely more than that.

Cool! That's something close to what I was guessing, I think. I don't want my concept of pagans to be anything like 'take a Christian, and replace Jesus with a tree'.
So baby steps to whittling away my ignorance are all welcome.

 

[Jainarayan]

Why would you worship something that is not aware of your worship?

I don't believe that's the case. There are a number of people at another Asatru site who are adamant in their beliefs that the gods don't care about us, and are hardly aware of us. They maintain that the gods are worthy of worship because they are. Well, if the gods don't care, I could worship a basketball because it's worthy of worship. I'll grant that they don't meddle in or micro-manage our daily affairs, but I do believe they are aware of us and care, that being the reason for worshiping them. You have start with the premise they are aware, otherwise worship is indeed pointless..

 

[Quintessence]

You have start with the premise they are aware, otherwise worship is indeed pointless..

Why do you feel that is the case? I don't know, I have a very hard time understanding that perspective. Holding such a perspective would mean almost everything in my life is pointless.

 

[Jainarayan]

Why do you feel that is the case? I don't know, I have a very hard time understanding that perspective. Holding such a perspective would mean almost everything in my life is pointless.

I mean worship of the gods only. If they're not aware of us and our worship, the worship is pointless. I'm coming from a Heathen perspective of a gift for a gift... worship/offerings and blessings being reciprocal. Otherwise it's like unrequited love. Is there a point in loving someone who does not return the love. I don't think it makes everything else in our lives pointless because we generally derive something from it. A movie, book, hobby, food, drinking, etc. gives something back... pleasure.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Thank-you for taking the time to respond so fully.
Understand that you're speaking for yourself, and have no interest in debating (even if the DIR rules allowed it) just trying to get different perspectives.
The awareness of the things you are respecting is interesting to me, in terms of how common that is amongst pagans.

definitely understood; I think it's always good to hear others' experiences and beliefs, and to try to understand them the way they do, so I appreciate when someone wants to do the same about me and mine.

Lol, as for how common beliefs like mine are among pagans broadly defined, I have no idea; although quite a few pagans I've talked with share a somewhat similar perspective. I've run into many more people who aren't that interested when they hear how simple my conceptual structure is.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Well.....I'm confused.
Perhaps my 'western' notion of worship is in the way.....

To be pagan....you can worship....but not a Deity that is a Person?

Could be. I've been struggling for years to give up the requirement that a deity, or anything worth paying homage or anything else to, must be universal or close to, or a "being" exactly like a person. This idea of "other than human persons" is making it easier for me, but for the time being at least, it's gotten me to the point where I simply don't do deities. I have nothing against them, or other people's worship/relationship with them, but I haven't really encountered one yet. Other kinds of spirits, yes. So I engage with--in a very broad sense, worship--many of the things that in the Western sense are not persons (trees, the forest and the fields, the air and the storms and clouds, my car, my house, etc.), but in my construction of the world ARE persons, just not human persons.

My understanding is that many pagans consider their favored deities as kin, which is another way you could describe my beliefs. But that's my understanding of others...

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Why do you feel that is the case? I don't know, I have a very hard time understanding that perspective. Holding such a perspective would mean almost everything in my life is pointless.

Or that everything in your life is aware!

 

[Quintessence]

Or that everything in your life is aware!

It really hinges on what is meant by "aware." You're right that as an animist, I view everything as "aware" but as someone living in America, I also realize when most people use that word, they mean a human-like awareness or consciousness. Nearly all of the things I worship do not have that quality. Sun Spirit is not "aware" like humans are aware, for example. Even then, I would not make "awareness" in any sense of the word a litmus test for worship. Such would contradict my ideal of proclaiming all things have intrinsic value and that all things are sacred; there is no litmus test. For me, worship is much more about celebrating that-which-is, in of itself, not requiring it have this or that quality in order to deserve my attention, gratitude, and so on. I suppose one could say it is akin to unconditional love and respect. No strings attached.

I mean worship of the gods only. If they're not aware of us and our worship, the worship is pointless. I'm coming from a Heathen perspective of a gift for a gift... worship/offerings and blessings being reciprocal. Otherwise it's like unrequited love. Is there a point in loving someone who does not return the love. I don't think it makes everything else in our lives pointless because we generally derive something from it. A movie, book, hobby, food, drinking, etc. gives something back... pleasure.

I was talking about the gods too, just different sorts of gods than you are, perhaps? Since I basically worship various aspects of nature/reality in the raw, I'd necessarily have a different perspective on this than you do. That, perhaps, hearkens to the most important lesson @lewisnotmiller should learn from this discussion:

Contemporary Paganism is far from heterogenous. There's no such thing as a universal reason why Pagans worship something. The heart of polytheism is freedom to worship that which is an expression of one's values or one's tribe.

 

[Jainarayan]

Contemporary Paganism is far from heterogenous. There's no such thing as a universal reason why Pagans worship something. The heart of polytheism is freedom to worship that which is an expression of one's values or one's tribe.

And there you have it. This is something lost on monotheistic religions, even on some Dharmic religions and sects. Lots of infighting and "I'm right", "no, I'm right", "no, you're wrong"... oy veh!

Although there is a Heathenism joke:
Q. What do you call two Heathens in a room?
A. An argument.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I've always felt the deities influenced us in many ways. Especially in many legends where they not only made humans, but taught humans many things, hence why humans worshipped them. It's a sign of respect, like the child shows respect to the parent, some would look at the deities are parents and we are their children.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

It really hinges on what is meant by "aware." You're right that as an animist, I view everything as "aware" but as someone living in America, I also realize when most people use that word, they mean a human-like awareness or consciousness. Nearly all of the things I worship do not have that quality. Sun Spirit is not "aware" like humans are aware, for example. Even then, I would not make "awareness" in any sense of the word a litmus test for worship. Such would contradict my ideal of proclaiming all things have intrinsic value and that all things are sacred; there is no litmus test. For me, worship is much more about celebrating that-which-is, in of itself, not requiring it have this or that quality in order to deserve my attention, gratitude, and so on. I suppose one could say it is akin to unconditional love and respect. No strings attached.

Yes, I agree. Making that distinction clear to nonpagan/animist western people has been such a labor for me. The idea of 'other than human persons' really only applies to those who do take on an apparent social awareness--like my car; we meld together every time I climb in the driver's seat. It's not really like talking with a person, but it's akin, in a way that is hard to explain or describe. There are gradations, and not even everything of the same type (oak trees, for example) are necessarily "aware" of me as a human being...some of the ones on our property seem to respond to me, but others not at all. We've got hedge apples, and one of them definitely claimed the name/title "Old/Elder Male One/Man", and listens and talks to me; while the others to me are just trees. I wouldn't say I worship him, but I do make offerings from time to time, and look out for his needs if I can.

I definitely agree on the intrinsic value point; for me it's more that "all that exists deserves respect." I'd take your version of unconditional love as another way of saying it.

Contemporary Paganism is far from heterogenous. There's no such thing as a universal reason why Pagans worship something.

I think you meant "far from homogenous." Sorry, It's the end of the semester and I'm in editing-student-paper mode...

 

[Quintessence]

And there you have it. This is something lost on monotheistic religions, even on some Dharmic religions and sects. Lots of infighting and "I'm right", "no, I'm right", "no, you're wrong"... oy veh!

Although there is a Heathenism joke:
Q. What do you call two Heathens in a room?
A. An argument.

Oh, there are all sorts of arguments that happen in the contemporary Pagan communities and various subgroups and such. For some, it is not enough to recognize or remember that I am right for me, you are right for you, and so forth. Gray-area, relativist thinking makes some people uncomfortable because of its apparent ambiguity. And then there's the people who are uncomfortable with black-and-white, absolutist thinking. Probably some people in between or in some other general habit of thinking too.

But really, we all know that I'm right anyway, so... hah!

I think you meant "far from homogenous." Sorry, It's the end of the semester and I'm in editing-student-paper mode...

D'oh! Yeah. Yeah, that's what I meant.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

@Typist
@Bunyip

Just wanted to point out it's a DIR area.
Not that your answers were disrespectful or anything, but I know it can be more unclear with how the site is structured now.

 

[Cassandra]

Why would you worship something that is not aware of your worship?
I guess it's a slight variation on the 'worship of inanimate objects' question sometimes asked, since I'm happy enough to concede that everything is alive, in a sense. But to be clear I'm certainly not telling anyone they should worship anything.

I like to answer this question but you need to give more information

1. Can you define what you understand as worship here
2. And what things worshiped are you referring to?
3. Do you consider yourself a very rationalizing person (seeking rational non-contradictory explanations for everything)?

 

[LuisDantas]

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