The purposeful vagueness of scriptures.

[loverofhumanity]

You haven't read the Bible.

You’re wasting my time.

 

[Link]

Perhaps you can share a prophecy that is clear?

The Quran has given a repeated example of the past, of destroyed nations. Then it has warned that there will come a time, that all cities will be under threat of destruction if they disbelieve, and that there won't a city spared from destruction. It has said this clearly in clearest repeated terms. Yet I don't know anyone aside from myself that sees this threat repeated to be about the Mahdi (a).

It's repeated more then the day of judgment.

Sometimes no matter how clear something is, if the sorcery of Iblis overcomes us due to our sins, we won't see it. This is the case of overwhelming majority of mankind.

 

[ppp]

You’re wasting my time.

Perhaps.

When I talk about the Vedas -- books that I have not fully read - I don't try to pretend that I have global knowledge of the texts. I don't try to pretend global knowledge of books that I have studied and read multiple times. It would be ridiculous and arrogant for me to do so. This is how I regard you and your approach to the Bible. I cannot take your unearned Biblical authority seriously. The fact that you cannot even acknowledge that you overstepped just makes me think you don't care whether what you say is true or not. You just want to say it.

 

[ppp]

The Quran has given a repeated example of the past, of destroyed nations. Then it has warned that there will come a time, that all cities will be under threat of destruction if they disbelieve, and that there won't a city spared from destruction. It has said this clearly in clearest repeated terms. Yet I don't know anyone aside from myself that sees this threat repeated to be about the Mahdi (a).

It's repeated more then the day of judgment.

Sometimes no matter how clear something is, if the sorcery of Iblis overcomes us due to our sins, we won't see it. This is the case of overwhelming majority of mankind.

The Quran is clear. Mostly. It just isn't credible.

 

[idea]

The Quran has given a repeated example of the past, of destroyed nations. Then it has warned that there will come a time, that all cities will be under threat of destruction if they disbelieve, and that there won't a city spared from destruction. It has said this clearly in clearest repeated terms. Yet I don't know anyone aside from myself that sees this threat repeated to be about the Mahdi (a).

It's repeated more then the day of judgment.

Sometimes no matter how clear something is, if the sorcery of Iblis overcomes us due to our sins, we won't see it. This is the case of overwhelming majority of mankind.

Destroyed when? What day and year will judgement happen? Believe what? Which destroyed nations? Like when Ottoman empire was defeated by Christians?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Perhaps you can share a prophecy that is clear?

- some examples

1. "The lion shall lie down with the lamb."
2. "A star shall rise out of Jacob."
3. "The meek shall inherit the earth."
4. "The river of life will flow from the throne of God."
5. "The abomination of desolation shall stand in the holy place."
6. "He will come like a thief in the night."
7. "The seven seals shall be opened."
8. "The moon shall turn to blood."
9. "A great eagle shall fly over the earth."
10. "The beast with seven heads and ten horns shall rise from the sea."

All of revelations...


Quran -

1. "And the heaven will split asunder, for that Day it will be frail."
2. "The sun and the moon [move] by precise calculation."
3. "When the stars lose their light."
4. "And the mountains will pass on, departing."
5. "When the sky breaks apart."
6. "The Day the heaven will sway with circular motion."
7. "And when the seas are erupted."
8. "And when the books are spread."
9. "And when the souls are paired."
10. "And when the girl [who was] buried alive is asked."

etc.

It's all symbolic, parables, ambiguous, good for personal exploration of one's own thoughts, like a Rorschach test -a psychological tool for exploring perceptions, but no information beyond personal thoughts.

A couple of things.

Revelation 5:5 states that the meanings of the books cannot be unsealed by any man on earth or in heaven only the Lion of the tribe of Judah

And the Quran 3:7 that only God knows the Quran’s interpretation and 7:50 Do they wait for any other than the interpretation thereof?i On the day whereon the interpretation thereof shall come, they who had forgotten the same before shall say, Now are we convinced by demonstration that the messengers of our LORD came unto us with truth:

So these passages quoted can only be interpreted successfully we believe by God’s Messengers. Baha’is believe that this Lion and Promised One to be Baha’u’llah and that He unsealed these meanings of both the Quran and the Bible. I think some of the ones you listed are in His Book the Book of Certitude as well as things like clouds, stars falling, the moon will no longer give light, trumpet, resurrection and many more.

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

The wolf and the lamb means that the conflicting and warring nations, races and religions which are antagonistic towards one another like the wolf and the lamb will live in peace with one another. This is already happening in some places but will eventually become universal.

 

[idea]

So these passages quoted can only be interpreted successfully we believe by God’s Messengers.

As it is impossible to know or agree on who the authentic messengers are, confusion and ambiguity rule.

 

[loverofhumanity]

As it is impossible to know or agree on who the authentic messengers are, confusion and ambiguity rule.

Point taken. Initially Christ was deemed a false prophet and only had a tiny handful of followers who were persecuted. However, the world did awaken with kings, queens and leaders accepting His truth and which now embraces the world with over 2 billion followers. The same with the other major religions once the claims of the Prophets were properly examined.

So smallness of numbers I believe does not imply impossibility of humanity being able to recognise the authentic messengers. On the contrary, history has proven otherwise.

 

[idea]

Point taken. Initially Christ was deemed a false prophet and only had a tiny handful of followers who were persecuted. However, the world did awaken with kings, queens and leaders accepting His truth and which now embraces the world with over 2 billion followers. The same with the other major religions once the claims of the Prophets were properly examined.

So smallness of numbers I believe does not imply impossibility of humanity being able to recognise the authentic messengers. On the contrary, history has proven otherwise.

When 8 billion all agreee, that is best (but still no guarantee).

So long as any discrepancy exists, responsibile action is using multiple references from diverse and independent groups. No single person, listen to everyone. It helps mitigate biases and ensures a well-rounded perspective, reducing the risk of making decisions based on limited or skewed information. Combining ideas from various sources enhances the depth of analysis, fostering informed and nuanced decision-making.

 

[Link]

Destroyed when? What day and year will judgement happen? Believe what? Which destroyed nations? Like when Ottoman empire was defeated by Christians?

Like Noah's (a) people, Pharaoh's people, etc.

 

[idea]

Like Noah's (a) people, Pharaoh's people, etc.

Most religious groups - different Christian sects, Jews - say God will be on their side in war.

Many wars have come and gone, all groups remain, God hasn't favored any group over another. All have been defeated, all have had victories. It's like claiming God prefers one football team over another. No team appears favorite.

 

[Link]

Most religious groups - different Christian sects, Jews - say God will be on their side in war.

Many wars have come and gone, all groups remain, God hasn't favored any group over another. All have been defeated, all have had victories. It's like claiming God prefers one football team over another. No team appears favorite.

All you are saying is not relevant to what I'm saying.

 

[loverofhumanity]

When 8 billion all agreee, that is best (but still no guarantee).

So long as any discrepancy exists, responsibile action is using multiple references from diverse and independent groups. No single person, listen to everyone. It helps mitigate biases and ensures a well-rounded perspective, reducing the risk of making decisions based on limited or skewed information. Combining ideas from various sources enhances the depth of analysis, fostering informed and nuanced decision-making.

Yes I agree fully that we must be meticulous in our research and leave no stone unturned to determine the truth or falsehood of any matter without bias or preconceptions. That is difficult because we are a product of our upbringing and environment. Yet Baha’u’llah did state that all men have been endowed with the capacity to recognise truth. So what I did was investigate independently for years until I was completely satisfied it was true which I encourage everyone to do. Never accept something until you are fully convinced. Enjoying your posts.

 

[ppp]

All you are saying is not relevant to what I'm saying.

What @idea is saying is directly relevant and to the point of what you are saying. You are attempting to point to the historicity and mythology of Islam as evidence of some sort of evidence of favor towards the adherents. @idea is pointing out that Muslim history is just as mundane and feckless as the rest of human history.

 

[Link]

What @idea is saying is directly relevant and to the point of what you are saying. You are attempting to point to the historicity and mythology of Islam as evidence of some sort of evidence of favor towards the adherents. @idea is pointing out that Muslim history is just as mundane and feckless as the rest of human history.

You are not reading what I'm saying and the context of the thread. He is asking to give a place where Quran is clear. I'm saying the Quran is clear in this regard, but people don't see it. What both of you are doing is digressing.

 

[ppp]

You are not reading what I'm saying and the context of the thread. He is asking to give a place where Quran is clear.

You did not provide clarity. You provided vague and non specific claims about the quran making non-specific proclaimings about unspecified people and places. @idea asked you for specifics and you provided this:

Like Noah's (a) people, Pharaoh's people, etc.

Which is both non-specific and non-historic.

BTW, the path you are attempting to walk here is pointless. Suppose that the Quran was actually clear. Suppose that Quran contained the passage, "At 11:15 AM local time on June 28, 1914 on the Gregorian calendar, Sophie, duchess of Hohenberg, and her husband Franz would be shot dead."

How would such a clear and accurate prediction demonstrate that the Quran was caused by a god?

 

[idea]

Yes I agree fully that we must be meticulous in our research and leave no stone unturned to determine the truth or falsehood of any matter without bias or preconceptions. That is difficult because we are a product of our upbringing and environment. Yet Baha’u’llah did state that all men have been endowed with the capacity to recognise truth. So what I did was investigate independently for years until I was completely satisfied it was true which I encourage everyone to do. Never accept something until you are fully convinced. Enjoying your posts.

Thankbyou for keeping thread alive- its been busy week for me, sorry for late replies!

re: Baha'u'llah's idea that humans have this built-in GPS for truth - Sorry, but I'm going to disagree here. We're wired to sniff out what keeps us alive and comfy, not some abstract universal truth. It is the flattery game – "you're sooo smart, you got the truth!" Seriously? That's just a slick move to stroke egos and create a fan club. Feel good doctrines, following someone - this doesn't make anyone a genius or chosen. It's more like signing up for a thought-restricting subscription – no critical thinking or personal freedom included. Let's be honest; embracing diverse ideas beats hitching your wagon to a single truth dealer any day. Following any leader isn't independent investigation. Lifelong learning, Lifelong independent thought means study from all sources, never limited to any single group or person. No one is chosen above others. Don't fall for flattery.

 

[idea]

You are not reading what I'm saying and the context of the thread. He is asking to give a place where Quran is clear. I'm saying the Quran is clear in this regard, but people don't see it. What both of you are doing is digressing.

The Muslim religion encompasses various sects, each interpreting the Quran with distinct perspectives. Sunni Islam, the largest sect, follows the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad and emphasizes community consensus. Shia Islam, on the other hand, believes in the leadership of Ali, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law. Within these major branches, numerous sub-sects and schools of thought exist, contributing to diverse interpretations of the Quran. The inherent ambiguity and unclear nature of certain verses in the Quran contribute to differing viewpoints among these groups. The absence of explicit context or detailed explanations in some passages allows for diverse interpretations, leading to theological variations that have led to many different Islamic traditions.

Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Sufism, Ibadi, Ahmadiyya, Salafism, Jamaat-e-Islami, Nation of Islam, Barelvi, Deobandi.... much arguing and disagreement, ambiguous scriptures, confusing unclear messages.

 

[idea]

You did not provide clarity. You provided vague and non specific claims about the quran making non-specific proclaimings about unspecified people and places. @idea asked you for specifics and you provided this:

Which is both non-specific and non-historic.

BTW, the path you are attempting to walk here is pointless. Suppose that the Quran was actually clear. Suppose that Quran contained the passage, "At 11:15 AM local time on June 28, 1914 on the Gregorian calendar, Sophie, duchess of Hohenberg, and her husband Franz would be shot dead."

How would such a clear and accurate prediction demonstrate that the Quran was caused by a god?

The Simpsons appears to be one of the clearest prophecetic sources:

‘The Simpsons’: 34 Times the Fox Comedy Successfully Predicted the Future

From Super Bowl winners to Trump's presidency, the long-running animated series has an uncanny knack for foretelling events.

www.google.com

The x-files prophecies the pandemic lol, perhaps tv shows are best source of truth lol

 

[Link]

The Muslim religion encompasses various sects, each interpreting the Quran with distinct perspectives. Sunni Islam, the largest sect, follows the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad and emphasizes community consensus. Shia Islam, on the other hand, believes in the leadership of Ali, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law. Within these major branches, numerous sub-sects and schools of thought exist, contributing to diverse interpretations of the Quran. The inherent ambiguity and unclear nature of certain verses in the Quran contribute to differing viewpoints among these groups. The absence of explicit context or detailed explanations in some passages allows for diverse interpretations, leading to theological variations that have led to many different Islamic traditions.

Sunni Islam, Shia Islam, Sufism, Ibadi, Ahmadiyya, Salafism, Jamaat-e-Islami, Nation of Islam, Barelvi, Deobandi.... much arguing and disagreement, ambiguous scriptures, confusing unclear messages.

I understand your claim. It would be true except under one condition. That sorcery wasn't causing people to not see what otherwise is very clear.

This is why Quran talks about it with respect to it's verses and says people with take his words out of his place, if they succumb to sorcery of Iblis.