• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Quantum World may be orderly and predictable.

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I follow a number of threads over time where some advocate the uncertainty of the Quantum World is used to create a high fog index to justify philosophical assumptions concerning things like consciousness, and researcher influence in research results. Actually more research is beginning to demonstrate the Quantum World is more orderly and predicable than was believed in the past. The ability to create images of of Quantum particles that I posted in the past was an important milestone in this goal. The following research supports this.

This reference still does reach into the weirdness of the Quantum World, but in a predictable and orderly manner.

From: Theoretical Physicists Describe New Kind of Quantum Time Order | Physics | Sci-News.com

Theoretical Physicists Describe New Kind of Quantum Time Order
Aug 31, 2019 by News Staff / Source

One of the fundamental principles of quantum mechanics is quantum superposition, in which a particle exists in two or more states simultaneously. In a paper published in the journal Nature Communications, University of Queensland physicist Magdalena Zych and colleagues show that particles are not the only objects that can exist in a state of superposition — so can time itself.


Zych et al provide the first direct analysis of quantum causal relations arising from a spatial superposition of a massive object; they show how the temporal order between time-like events can become superposed or even entangled. Image credit: University of Queensland.

“The sequence of events can become quantum mechanical,” said co-author Dr. Igor Pikovski, a physicist at Stevens Institute of Technology.

“We looked at quantum temporal order where there is no distinction between one event causing the other or vice versa.”

The team’s work is among the first to reveal the quantum properties of time, whereby the flow of time doesn’t observe a straight arrow forward, but one where cause and effect can co-exist both in the forward and backward direction.

In the upcoming era of quantum computers, the work holds particular promise: quantum computers that exploit the quantum order of performing operations might beat devices that operate using only fixed sequences.

To show this scenario, the physicists merged two seemingly conflicting theories — quantum mechanics and general relativity — to conduct a Gedankenexperiment, a way of using the imagination to investigate the nature of things.

“The discovery arose from an experiment we designed to bring together elements of the two big — but contradictory — physics theories developed in the past century,” Dr. Zych explained.

“Our proposal sought to discover: what happens when an object massive enough to influence the flow of time is placed in a quantum state?”

“Einstein’s theory described how the presence of a massive object slowed time,” she added.

“Imagine two space ships, asked to fire at each other at a specified time while dodging the other’s attack.”

“If either fires too early, it will destroy the other.”

“In Einstein’s theory, a powerful enemy could use the principles of general relativity by placing a massive object — like a planet — closer to one ship to slow the passing of time.”

“Because of the time lag, the ship furthest away from the massive object will fire earlier, destroying the other.”

“The second theory, of quantum mechanics, says any object can be in a state of superposition. This means it can be found in different states — think Schrodinger’s cat.”

“Using the theory of quantum mechanics, if the enemy put the planet into a state of quantum superposition, then time also should be disrupted,” Dr. Zych said.

“There would be a new way for the order of events to unfold, with neither of the events being first or second — but in a genuine quantum state of being both first and second.”

“Although ‘a superposition of planets’ may never be possible, technology allowed a simulation of how time works in the quantum world — without using gravity,” said co-author Dr. Fabio Costa, from the University of Queensland.

“Even if the experiment can never be done, the study is relevant for future technologies.”

“We are currently working towards quantum computers that — very simply speaking — could effectively jump through time to perform their operations much more efficiently than devices operating in fixed sequence in time, as we know it in our ‘normal’ world.”
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Nature is completely random.

Actually no, randomness only can be observe in the predictability of individual cause and effect events. The chain of any individual cause and effect events may follow a fractal pattern (chaos theory), but the Laws of Nature determine the outcome of the outcome of the chain of cause and effect events.

That is why no two clouds are alike, but all clouds look like clouds. This is the reason that the outcome of the chain of Quantum Mechanic cause and effect events are becoming more predictable and consistent despite the random lack of predictability of individual events.






.
 
Last edited:

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Interesting thoughts. It looks like they haven't actually got a workable experiment for this, so its just a thought experiment.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
So then the arrow of time would be an emergent property from the quantum world?

Is this saying that time can move in any direction?

Does the material world itself cause the flow of time?

I would think events in the past are fixed and unalterable.

Perhaps things have an infinite potentiality til actualized.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So then the arrow of time would be an emergent property from the quantum world?

Is this saying that time can move in any direction?

Not true reversal on the long term macro scale. Only possible superposition of time reversal is possible. Not reversal alone.

Does the material world itself cause the flow of time?

No, Time exists is in relation to the existence of space in a space time continuum and the material world is not causal. It is a product of the nature of the Quantum World..

I would think events in the past are fixed and unalterable.

Most likely true. This research did not deal with the actual long term reversal of time going back into the past and changing it. It only considered it in supervision on the immediate small scale of time, based on observations at the Quantum level.The author is a bit tongue and cheek projecting the observed Quantum behavior to the macro world using hypothetical examples.

This comment, “We looked at quantum temporal order where there is no distinction between one event causing the other or vice versa.” more reflects Einstein's conclusion that the difference between the 'past, present and future,' is an illusion from the human perspective, also our perception of cause and effect from the macro level of the human perspective may be somewhat illusive,.

Perhaps things have an infinite potentiality till actualized.

Good point!
 
Last edited:

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
So then the arrow of time would be an emergent property from the quantum world?

Is this saying that time can move in any direction?

Does the material world itself cause the flow of time?

I would think events in the past are fixed and unalterable.

Perhaps things have an infinite potentiality til actualized.

Wait... so there is *hope* that Avengers: End Game is ... possible?

:D
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I follow a number of threads over time where some advocate the uncertainty of the Quantum World is used to create a high fog index to justify philosophical assumptions concerning things like consciousness, and researcher influence in research results.
Sorry, but that ball of confusion you posted after that only makes the fog thicker for about everyone.

If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics.

Richard P. Feynman
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
This is an overused moldy oldy phrase. Over time science is understanding Quantum Mechanics. This doe not translated to 'knowing' all about QM. The phrase reflects the knowledge of QM over thirty years ago.
Just curious. Are you one that claims there is no 'observer effect' in quantum mechanics?

The observer effect is the effect whereby the observation of a physical phenomenon necessarily affects that phenomenon. In the context of quantum mechanics, the observer effect implies that a measurement of a physical observable of a system forces that system to randomly pick a particular value of that observable from many possible values.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I follow a number of threads over time where some advocate the uncertainty of the Quantum World is used to create a high fog index to justify philosophical assumptions concerning things like consciousness, and researcher influence in research results. Actually more research is beginning to demonstrate the Quantum World is more orderly and predicable than was believed in the past. The ability to create images of of Quantum particles that I posted in the past was an important milestone in this goal. The following research supports this.

This reference still does reach into the weirdness of the Quantum World, but in a predictable and orderly manner.

From: Theoretical Physicists Describe New Kind of Quantum Time Order | Physics | Sci-News.com

Theoretical Physicists Describe New Kind of Quantum Time Order
Aug 31, 2019 by News Staff / Source

One of the fundamental principles of quantum mechanics is quantum superposition, in which a particle exists in two or more states simultaneously. In a paper published in the journal Nature Communications, University of Queensland physicist Magdalena Zych and colleagues show that particles are not the only objects that can exist in a state of superposition — so can time itself.


Zych et al provide the first direct analysis of quantum causal relations arising from a spatial superposition of a massive object; they show how the temporal order between time-like events can become superposed or even entangled. Image credit: University of Queensland.

“The sequence of events can become quantum mechanical,” said co-author Dr. Igor Pikovski, a physicist at Stevens Institute of Technology.

“We looked at quantum temporal order where there is no distinction between one event causing the other or vice versa.”

The team’s work is among the first to reveal the quantum properties of time, whereby the flow of time doesn’t observe a straight arrow forward, but one where cause and effect can co-exist both in the forward and backward direction.

In the upcoming era of quantum computers, the work holds particular promise: quantum computers that exploit the quantum order of performing operations might beat devices that operate using only fixed sequences.

To show this scenario, the physicists merged two seemingly conflicting theories — quantum mechanics and general relativity — to conduct a Gedankenexperiment, a way of using the imagination to investigate the nature of things.

“The discovery arose from an experiment we designed to bring together elements of the two big — but contradictory — physics theories developed in the past century,” Dr. Zych explained.

“Our proposal sought to discover: what happens when an object massive enough to influence the flow of time is placed in a quantum state?”

“Einstein’s theory described how the presence of a massive object slowed time,” she added.

“Imagine two space ships, asked to fire at each other at a specified time while dodging the other’s attack.”

“If either fires too early, it will destroy the other.”

“In Einstein’s theory, a powerful enemy could use the principles of general relativity by placing a massive object — like a planet — closer to one ship to slow the passing of time.”

“Because of the time lag, the ship furthest away from the massive object will fire earlier, destroying the other.”

“The second theory, of quantum mechanics, says any object can be in a state of superposition. This means it can be found in different states — think Schrodinger’s cat.”

“Using the theory of quantum mechanics, if the enemy put the planet into a state of quantum superposition, then time also should be disrupted,” Dr. Zych said.

“There would be a new way for the order of events to unfold, with neither of the events being first or second — but in a genuine quantum state of being both first and second.”

“Although ‘a superposition of planets’ may never be possible, technology allowed a simulation of how time works in the quantum world — without using gravity,” said co-author Dr. Fabio Costa, from the University of Queensland.

“Even if the experiment can never be done, the study is relevant for future technologies.”

“We are currently working towards quantum computers that — very simply speaking — could effectively jump through time to perform their operations much more efficiently than devices operating in fixed sequence in time, as we know it in our ‘normal’ world.”
I tend to agree. It's probably been considered "unpredictable" simply because we've known so little about the behavior of sub-atomic particles.

However, after just saying the above, these particles under immense pressure and heat still may remain unpredictable.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Just curious. Are you one that claims there is no 'observer effect' in quantum mechanics?

Yes, I do not believe that there is any observer effects on Quantum Mechanics. What we have are limits in interpretation by scientists concerning the observations of Quantum behavior. The recent ability to make images of quantum particles has gone a long way to resolve these issues.

The observer effect is the effect whereby the observation of a physical phenomenon necessarily affects that phenomenon. In the context of quantum mechanics, the observer effect implies that a measurement of a physical observable of a system forces that system to randomly pick a particular value of that observable from many possible values.

What is observed as 'effects' remains the problems of our ability to interpret our observations of Quantum behavior.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Yes, I do not believe that there is any observer effects on Quantum Mechanics. What we have are limits in interpretation by scientists concerning the observations of Quantum behavior. The recent ability to make images of quantum particles has gone a long way to resolve these issues.



What is observed as 'effects' remains the problems of our ability to interpret our observations of Quantum behavior.
The point is that passive observation affects things.

I think this is the point conventional thinking does not like but happens to be true nonetheless.

As a result many people perhaps yourself will try to dismiss this effect which has been shown by rather clear experiments like the double-split experiment. Explain that one.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The point is that passive observation affects things.

I think this is the point conventional thinking does not like but happens to be true nonetheless.

As a result many people perhaps yourself will try to dismiss this effect which has been shown by rather clear experiments like the double-split experiment. Explain that one.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree here, and I will go with the more recent advances in Quantum Mechanics.. The recent research, particularly that ability know to image the particles, and this research reveal that before this the human observations you refer to are limited and incomplete.

From: First Ever Image of Quantum Entanglement - Universe Today

"During the 1930s, venerable theoretical physicist Albert Einstein returned to the field of quantum mechanics, which his theories of relativity helped to create. Hoping to develop a more complete theory of how particles behave, Einstein was instead horrified by the prospect of quantum entanglement – something he described as “spooky action at a distance”.

Despite Einstein’s misgivings, quantum entanglement has gone on to become an accepted part of quantum mechanics. And now, for the first time ever, a team of physicists from the University of Glasgow took an image of a form of quantum entanglement (aka. Bell entanglement) at work. In so doing, they managed to capture the first piece of visual evidence of a phenomenon that baffled even Einstein himself.

The paper that described their findings, titled “Imaging Bell-type nonlocal behavior“, recently appeared in the journal Science Advances. The study was led by Dr. Paul-Antoine Moreau, a Leverhulme Early Career Fellow at the University of Glasgow, and included multiple researchers from Glasgow’s School of Physics & Astronomy."
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Well, we will have to agree to disagree here, and I will go with the more recent advances in Quantum Mechanics.. The recent research, particularly that ability know to image the particles, and this research reveal that before this the human observations you refer to are limited and incomplete.

From: First Ever Image of Quantum Entanglement - Universe Today

"During the 1930s, venerable theoretical physicist Albert Einstein returned to the field of quantum mechanics, which his theories of relativity helped to create. Hoping to develop a more complete theory of how particles behave, Einstein was instead horrified by the prospect of quantum entanglement – something he described as “spooky action at a distance”.

Despite Einstein’s misgivings, quantum entanglement has gone on to become an accepted part of quantum mechanics. And now, for the first time ever, a team of physicists from the University of Glasgow took an image of a form of quantum entanglement (aka. Bell entanglement) at work. In so doing, they managed to capture the first piece of visual evidence of a phenomenon that baffled even Einstein himself.

The paper that described their findings, titled “Imaging Bell-type nonlocal behavior“, recently appeared in the journal Science Advances. The study was led by Dr. Paul-Antoine Moreau, a Leverhulme Early Career Fellow at the University of Glasgow, and included multiple researchers from Glasgow’s School of Physics & Astronomy."

To quote Spok: Fascinating!

Once again, you make me think. Excellent, and quite interesting.

Thanks for making this thread.
 
Top