The Question Islam and Christianity Can't Answer

[danieldemol]

I really don’t understand what you are attempting to convey here. Can you rephrase?

I'm suggesting you posed a false dichotomy for an omnipotent God.

Why only if an addict person could be created who would then create a cancer curer when an omnipotent God could simply skip the creation of the first and directly create the latter?

 

[Kenny]

I'm suggesting you posed a false dichotomy for an omnipotent God.

In the construct of ones mind, one can view it that way. I don’t find it as a dichotomy.

Why only if an addict person could be created who would then create a cancer curer when an omnipotent God could simply skip the creation of the first and directly create the latter?

I gave it as an example. The reality is that a person isn’t born an addict. When God created man there was no sickness or disease. In the end there will be again no sickness and disease.

I find that the end of your position is to create a robotic people. Why stop at cancer? What about accidents? Why not stop them also? Why even have a free will?

 

[danieldemol]

In the construct of ones mind, one can view it that way. I don’t find it as a dichotomy.

Of course you don't, as your faith requires you not to in my view.

I gave it as an example. The reality is that a person isn’t born an addict. When God created man there was no sickness or disease. In the end there will be again no sickness and disease.

Sickness and disease predate humans as far as I'm aware.

I find that the end of your position is to create a robotic people. Why stop at cancer? What about accidents? Why not stop them also?

Great questions

Why even have a free will?

Who said we have free will? I don't believe it exists as anything more than an illusion.

 

[osgart]

No one makes a totally free choice to go to a hell of eternal torture. The logical choice is to choose heaven over hell. So if we are talking about a strictly intellectual choice then legalistically everyone chooses heaven.

The heart of a person goes beyond mere intellectual choice. Anyone can make an intellectual choice that their hearts have no interest in accepting.

The question then becomes do I have the freedom to totally change my heart and accept something I have no heart place for?

Where a person's heart is totally against something, do I have the power to choose in my heart to end the against and become for something?

A moral person seeks justified reasons for what heart path they take.

What makes the Bible, and Jesus just? What makes it true?

No sane person puts their total hearts and minds into someone, or something without demonstrable proof, or evidence. What spiritual proof, or evidence does a Christian have that their God is just? And how do you know this God exists?

Until you can do that you have no business talking.

Eternal hell without end says that your God cannot fix the hearts of the damned through punishment nor mercy. God cannot do something, and even if God could that God is unwilling to do it. How and why?

 

[Kenny]

Of course you don't, as your faith requires you not to in my view.

Not “faith” for me… logic

Sickness and disease predate humans as far as I'm aware.

Depends on how you view things — we have limited knowledge.

Great questions

Who said we have free will? I don't believe it exists as anything more than an illusion.

And that is probably why we won’t connect.

It is why we have different world views.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

What makes the Bible, and Jesus just? What makes it true?

Where they are putting their words is what makes it true.
Biblical prophecies can be scientifically proven to be facts in this way.

 

[shunyadragon]

Where they are putting their words is what makes it true.
Biblical prophecies can be scientifically proven to be facts in this way.

This is false science can do no such thing. Interpretations of prophecies are dar to subjective variable and conflicting for any objective consideration of science. In fact the whole Bible is too conflicting, contradictory, and without provenance for any consideration by science, except for the study of the archaeological research which reveals many contradictions in the text.

For example Jews totally reject the variable conflicting prophecies claimed by Christianity, and the Torah is in their language and culture. In fact plain reading of all the prophecies demonstrate that they refer to the rise of one or more Kings that restore the Nation of Israel and bring peace to the world that the Hebrews knew at the time.

 

[shunyadragon]

Not “faith” for me… logic

The problem with the use of logic in this case os that the conclusions are circuLar and the goal is to justify what one believes

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Depends on how you view things — we have limited knowledge.

True, but 'arguing from ignorance' cannot justify a belief.

And that is probably why we won’t connect.

It is why we have different world views.

Her is where believing stoically in one worldview results in the failure to consider a universal perspective beyond any one worldview.

 

[osgart]

Where they are putting their words is what makes it true.
Biblical prophecies can be scientifically proven to be facts in this way.

How does that make it just?

Do you have an example?

 

[Kenny]

The problem with the use of logic in this case os that the conclusions are circuLar and the goal is to justify what one believes

I can be circular… but is it always circular? I don’t think so

True, but 'arguing from ignorance' cannot justify a belief.

I’m not justifying a belief just acknowledge the truth that we have limited knowledge.

Her is where believing stoically in one worldview results in the failure to consider a universal perspective beyond any one worldview.

Unless one's worldview is the truth. Obviously some will still disagree even as there are quite a few who belief in a flat earth.

 

[Ebionite]

What makes the Bible, and Jesus just? What makes it true?

Validation, or more specifically the fulfilment of prophecy.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

This is false science can do no such thing

But science can do such a thing. It can examine the truth of the words and reach a conclusion.
I am talking about the science of internal examination rather than external comparison.

In fact the whole Bible is too conflicting, contradictory, and without provenance for any consideration by science, except for the study of the archaeological research which reveals many contradictions in the text.

In Isaiah there is a "prophecy" about predators and prey living together in harmony. The wolf with lamb, the lion with the calf, the leopard with the kid goat. Do you know it?

The fact is there is a city mentioned in Ezekiel that has 12 gates, each assigned a tribe, and a specific direction.

And Described in the East direction you will find Joseph, and Benjamin together. While research shows Benjamin associated with wolf and Joseph associated with sheep:

"Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil. Genesis.

Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth. Psalm".


Like described in the North direction of the city you will find Reuben and Judah together. And research shows Reuben associated with cattle, and Judah associated with lion.


"Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle; Numbers.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation".



Therefore Isaiah was speaking clearly, and stating clear facts here:

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

So science can clearly prove the "prophecy" is true. That they are facts.

I can also show the leopard with the kid goat as Gad is with Asher in the West direction of the city.


The Bible says Jerusalem is the city of truth.

Science can confirm it.

 

[osgart]

Validation, or more specifically the fulfilment of prophecy.

Do you have an example? Why is it just?

 

[McBell]

No, not relevant. First, you only have the foreknowledge if you actually caused the trains to collide. If you did not cause the trains to collide then you did not have foreknowledge. You simply saw the trains headed toward each other. It reality you would "know the trains collided until after it happened.

I beleive the subject is the foreknowledge of God, and not fallible humans like you or me.

How is this not special pleading?

 

[McBell]

True, but 'arguing from ignorance' cannot justify a belief.

Yet it is done by hundreds of millions, if not not billions, on a daily basis

 

[osgart]

But science can do such a thing. It can examine the truth of the words and reach a conclusion.
I am talking about the science of internal examination rather than external comparison.




In Isaiah there is a "prophecy" about predators and prey living together in harmony. The wolf with lamb, the lion with the calf, the leopard with the kid goat. Do you know it?

The fact is there is a city mentioned in Ezekiel that has 12 gates, each assigned a tribe, and a specific direction.

And Described in the East direction you will find Joseph, and Benjamin together. While research shows Benjamin associated with wolf and Joseph associated with sheep:

"Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil. Genesis.

Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth. Psalm".


Like described in the North direction of the city you will find Reuben and Judah together. And research shows Reuben associated with cattle, and Judah associated with lion.


"Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle; Numbers.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation".



Therefore Isaiah was speaking clearly, and stating clear facts here:

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

So science can clearly prove the "prophecy" is true. That they are facts.

I can also show the leopard with the kid goat as Gad is with Asher in the West direction of the city.


The Bible says Jerusalem is the city of truth.

Science can confirm it.

Total rationalization. It's creating a story and creating its fulfillment in a way that you like it to be.

The idea that someone has to study Bible prophecy to save their souls is rubbish.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

How does that make it just?

Do you have an example?

Prophecies are not about a magical future event that might happen one day. Prophecy happens when the individual understands the words, as it was clearly fulfilled the moment it was spoken. That is why I can show how they can also happen at this current point of time.

So maybe others in the past could have also seen the prophecies happen in their lifetimes.

Seeing the curses are also as blessings.

Do you think it is wise to speak truth in the form of foolish nonsense?

 

[McBell]

Do you think it is wise to speak truth in the form of foolish nonsense?

You mean like all the parables in the Bible?

 

[McBell]

In Isaiah there is a "prophecy" about predators and prey living together in harmony. The wolf with lamb, the lion with the calf, the leopard with the kid goat. Do you know it?

The fact is there is a city mentioned in Ezekiel that has 12 gates, each assigned a tribe, and a specific direction.

And Described in the East direction you will find Joseph, and Benjamin together. While research shows Benjamin associated with wolf and Joseph associated with sheep:

"Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil. Genesis.

Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth. Psalm".


Like described in the North direction of the city you will find Reuben and Judah together. And research shows Reuben associated with cattle, and Judah associated with lion.


"Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle; Numbers.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation".



Therefore Isaiah was speaking clearly, and stating clear facts here:

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

So science can clearly prove the "prophecy" is true. That they are facts.

I can also show the leopard with the kid goat as Gad is with Asher in the West direction of the city.


The Bible says Jerusalem is the city of truth.

Science can confirm it.

That is definitely not science.

Hells bells, i am not sure that it could even be considered philosophy....

 

[osgart]

Prophecies are not about a magical future event that might happen one day. Prophecy happens when the individual understands the words, as it was clearly fulfilled the moment it was spoken. That is why I can show how they can also happen at this current point of time.

So maybe others in the past could have also seen the prophecies happen in their lifetimes.

Seeing the curses are also as blessings.

Do you think it is wise to speak truth in the form of foolish nonsense?

You're speaking in riddles. You have not demonstrated anything. There is no obvious truth in the Bible that I'm responsible to follow it.

Anyone can write a story, and create its fulfillment in another created story.