The Question Islam and Christianity Can't Answer

[McBell]

Prophecies are not about a magical future event that might happen one day. Prophecy happens when the individual understands the words, as it was clearly fulfilled the moment it was spoken. That is why I can show how they can also happen at this current point of time.

Where did you get that from?

proph·e·cy​

/ˈpräfəsē/​

noun​

noun: prophecy; plural noun: prophecies​

a prediction.​

prophecy is sometimes confused with prophesy

 

[Ebionite]

you have an example? Why is it just?

The reason why it is just is is Psalm 35.

The key ideas of fulfilment and justice/righteous can be found from:

But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
John 15:25

Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: [neither] let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause.
Psalms 35:19

Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let YHWH be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
And my tongue shall speak of thy righteousness [and] of thy praise all the day long.
Psalms 35:27-28

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You're speaking in riddles. You have not demonstrated anything.

I am trying to explain. Please try to listen carefully so I can further explain and clarify what i say.

Here I show a verse of three things: the moon, the stars, and the sun:
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. Corinthians.

And here I show another three things: the spear, the sword, and the bow
Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah.


Now here I want you to listen very carefully to this prophecy:
Look very carefully:

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk.


Can you see the overlap of the two sets of three things? The sun and the bow, the moon and the spear.

But notice one word from each set of three things is missing in the prophecy. The sword and the stars.

So scientifically could evidence of the sword being connected to the stars verify the connecting overlap of the two sets of three things?

Would it show the prophecy as being true?

 

[RestlessSoul]

Yes, I have created a question that I have been pondering about for many years which no Christian or Muslim could possibly answer if God is loving. Here is my question to those Muslims and Christians that strongly believe in their faiths.

Question:

Why would an omniscient and loving God knowingly create many people he knows he will one day throw into hell after they get done living out their lives?

Argument:

So, he creates a bunch of people he already knows will go to hell before they even die. What's the point? It's like setting up someone for failure from the very beginning for your own sadistic pleasure and the thrill of it! Why believe in such a God?

Thank you.

I have one of those little bronze bowls that, when struck gently, reverberates into every corner of the room, until fading imperceptibly into silence. Today I sounded it to mark the beginning of my morning meditation, as I often do; and as I listened for, and inevitably missed, the moment this beautiful hypnotic sound finally faded into silence, it occurred to me that it was a perfect metaphor for the birth, evolution and eventual fading away of the universe.

The thought then occurred to me, what if every time I rang that bowl, I created a universe, somewhere in another dimension? And suppose that, hidden within the clarity, harmony and transcendent beauty of that sound, there was also discord, disharmony, ugliness; that melancholy, sorrow and loss were necessary elements helping to form the magnificent symphony my universe enunciated, when taken in it’s entirety?

Would I still ring the bowl, knowing all that? And would I still cause that beautiful sound to resonate around the room, knowing that I had created something beautiful and fragile, only for it to eventually die?

 

[stevecanuck]

Do you think this has never been asked before? Lol

God doesn't throw anyone in hell.

Since the question was directed at Muslims as well as Christians, it should be noted that the Qur'an threatens people with the very literal fires of hell hundreds of times.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yet it is done by hundreds of millions, if not not billions, on a daily basis

A but of an overstatement when the issue is throblem of arguing from ignorance in bad arguments.

 

[shunyadragon]

But science can do such a thing. It can examine the truth of the words and reach a conclusion.

This not what science does. You need a basic high school level education about what science does, Objective verifiable evidence to reach conclusions based on the physical nature of our existence.

I am talking about the science of internal examination rather than external comparison.

The is not science. This is personal subjective contemplation concerning the meaning of words.

In Isaiah there is a "prophecy" about predators and prey living together in harmony. The wolf with lamb, the lion with the calf, the leopard with the kid goat. Do you know it.

Yes

The fact is there is a city mentioned in Ezekiel that has 12 gates, each assigned a tribe, and a specific direction.

And Described in the East direction you will find Joseph, and Benjamin together. While research shows Benjamin associated with wolf and Joseph associated with sheep:

"Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil. Genesis.

Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth. Psalm".


Like described in the North direction of the city you will find Reuben and Judah together. And research shows Reuben associated with cattle, and Judah associated with lion.


"Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle; Numbers.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation".



Therefore Isaiah was speaking clearly, and stating clear facts here:

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

So science can clearly prove the "prophecy" is true. That they are facts.

There are no objective verifiable facts involved in personal subjective contemplation concerning the meaning of words. The problem remains that there are many different subjective interpretations of prophecy,

I can also show the leopard with the kid goat as Gad is with Asher in the West direction of the city.

You cannot objectively show that as a fact by definition in plain English,

The Bible says Jerusalem is the city of truth.

The Bible may say that, but that is subjective, and the only fact here is that Jerusalem is a city.

Science can confirm it.

Absolutely nothing to do with science.

You are neglecting the fact that there are many diverse conflicting beliefs in Bible prophecy.

The problem remains that the Jews absolutely disagree with all your prophecy interpretations, and it is their scripture in their language.

So far all you have made is unfounded assertions based on personal belief, and not responded to the over whelming evidence of many contradictory interpretation, which is impossible to test by science.

 

[Comradio251]

I have one of those little bronze bowls that, when struck gently, reverberates into every corner of the room, until fading imperceptibly into silence. Today I sounded it to mark the beginning of my morning meditation, as I often do; and as I listened for, and inevitably missed, the moment this beautiful hypnotic sound finally faded into silence, it occurred to me that it was a perfect metaphor for the birth, evolution and eventual fading away of the universe.

The thought then occurred to me, what if every time I rang that bowl, I created a universe, somewhere in another dimension? And suppose that, hidden within the clarity, harmony and transcendent beauty of that sound, there was also discord, disharmony, ugliness; that melancholy, sorrow and loss were necessary elements helping to form the magnificent symphony my universe enunciated, when taken in it’s entirety?

Would I still ring the bowl, knowing all that? And would I still cause that beautiful sound to resonate around the room, knowing that I had created something beautiful and fragile, only for it to eventually die?

Totally 'KY' and impertinent to the discussion. But I believe you have the ability to write good poetry and have a very good imagination. That's a compliment from me.

 

[Hawkins]

Yes, I have created a question that I have been pondering about for many years which no Christian or Muslim could possibly answer if God is loving. Here is my question to those Muslims and Christians that strongly believe in their faiths.

Question:

Why would an omniscient and loving God knowingly create many people he knows he will one day throw into hell after they get done living out their lives?

Argument:

So, he creates a bunch of people he already knows will go to hell before they even die. What's the point? It's like setting up someone for failure from the very beginning for your own sadistic pleasure and the thrill of it! Why believe in such a God?

Thank you.

You need to learn some math to understand.

Free will at the end means one is given the ability to oppose God. It's like a choice of a head and tail coin. So if free will does exist, by mathmatics some will choose to oppose Him.

Now in order to build a Heaven which is an eternity where all three parties - humans, angels and God must be happy and satisfactory, Law has been set up to identify who can enter this eternity. Law is like a promise from God saying that if you pass the Final Judgment of Law, the completely sin-incompatible God will bear with you in eternity no matter what. To put it another way, only those qualified by Law can keep the harmony of Heaven for the three parties to be completely satisfactory. The story of Eden is to express that without the process of identification by Law Heaven, where God, Adam and angels (the crafty snake) lived together, won't be able to reach such a harmony.

By math, the Final Judgment will bar around 1/3 angels from setting foot to the New Heaven under building. It's because with them a harmony of angels and humans and the sin-incompatible God won't be reached.

What left is, what would happen to those being rejected. In a realm without God's active knowledge and active influence, naturally the most evil and most powerful will eventually rule. This happens to be Satan (if not Satan it would someone equivalent evil and powerful). Satan will turn whatever into a "wilderness" - a sinful and lawless realm. That's what hell is.

After the Final Judgment, God would withdraw His knowledge about what would happen in the hellish realm, as God needs to be happy too. God is unhappy right now as expressed in the Noah story that this world's sins are unbearable to God. God however promised Noah that He would bear with our sins till the Judgment Day but not beyond.

God's omniscience is under the control of His omnipotence. That is, God has all the ability to choose to not to know what would happen in hell. Even a human like you can choose not to stay in a pool of sh*t. That's why it is said that God is the god of living but not the god of the dead. It is called a permanent separation where God completely withdraws His knowlege from the realm where Satan rules. By then your god is Satan and you need to seek help from him, while he is incapable of countering the true nature. This universe is not the true nature but rather it's God-made. True nature is supposed to be filled with energy and fire. So Satan is incapble of countering being eventually swallowed by the true nature. That's what the burning hell is.

So the OP question makes no difference in asking why it is an equal chance of head and tail when throwing a coin if God is all powerful.

 

[osgart]

The reason why it is just is is Psalm 35.

The key ideas of fulfilment and justice/righteous can be found from:

But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
John 15:25

Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: [neither] let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause.
Psalms 35:19

Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let YHWH be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
And my tongue shall speak of thy righteousness [and] of thy praise all the day long.
Psalms 35:27-28

And what is this righteous cause/ obvious truth?

Because I hate eternal damnation for believing the wrong set of things. And I don't subscribe to a God that doesn't exist. And I certainly won't worship a God that doesn't reveal His nature.

The real situation is that God reveals nothing of who He is, and let's valid reasons for not believing in His existence reign over humanity.

Besides eternal damnation means that God is unwilling to change the hearts of the damned. This God would rather have a place of forever torture then actually defeat evil. A place of lingering waste and destruction and torture forever and ever instead of making life where there is none is defeatist.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

This not what science does. You need a basic high school level education about what science does, Objective verifiable evidence to reach conclusions based on the physical nature of our existence.

The Bible exists. Science can examine it. This is objective.

The is not science. This is personal subjective contemplation concerning the meaning of words.

Try using a word search and examine every time a certain word is mentioned, to see the meaning of the words.

There are no objective verifiable facts involved in personal subjective contemplation concerning the meaning of words. The problem remains that there are many different subjective interpretations of prophecy,

Do you think because there are people that dont agree on the meaning of the words, therefore I must be wrong?

You cannot objectively show that as a fact by definition in plain English,

Why not. Internal examination of word placement would be objective.

The Bible may say that, but that is subjective, and the only fact here is that Jerusalem is a city.

I showed how the city proves the wolf is with the lamb etc. I showed the city confirms the truth of what Isaiah said.

North - West - East
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf

Its also like how I have now asked @osgart about understanding the connecting of spears, swords, and bows to other words.
The fact is the city can also show what I said.

North - West - East
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf
Spear - Sword - Bow
Moon - Stars - Sun

Like I showed Reuben as cattle, and Judah as lion earlier. Being in accordance to the city structure.


I know that is why the cattle are associated with spears in this verse:
Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, till every one submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people that delight in war. Psalm.

And Judah has spears in this verse, while Benjamin has bows:
And Asa had an army of men that bare targets and spears, out of Judah three hundred thousand; and out of Benjamin, that bare shields and drew bows, two hundred and fourscore thousand: all these were mighty men of valour. Chronicles.

Like Ephraim being of the tribe of Joseph also have bows;
The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle. Psalm.


Therefore just as the wolf is with the lamb in the East, they both have bows.
And just as the lion is with the calf in the North, they both have spears.

The city confirms the truth of the words.

Absolutely nothing to do with science.

You are neglecting the fact that there are many diverse conflicting beliefs in Bible prophecy.

The problem remains that the Jews absolutely disagree with all your prophecy interpretations, and it is their scripture in their language.

So far all you have made is unfounded assertions based on personal belief, and not responded to the over whelming evidence of many contradictory interpretation, which is impossible to test by science.

My assertion can be tested by science.

We have the Bible, this is objective.
We also have access to word search functions which can show every time a certain word is mentioned, this is also objective.

So is my connecting of words objective, or subjective. You seem to have quickly formed a conclusion that it is subjective going by a few things I have said. Try asking questions, taking a look for yourself, and seeing if what I am talking about goes beyond coincidence or not.

So what do you know about spears, swords, and bows?

 

[Ebionite]

And what is this righteous cause/

It's described in Isaiah 53, which, like Psalm 35 is about the righteous servant. Knowledge is important, like in Hosea 6:6, and this verse is referenced in the gospels.

 

[Ignatius A]

Since the question was directed at Muslims as well as Christians, it should be noted that the Qur'an threatens people with the very literal fires of hell hundreds of times.

And? Hell is real and people will end up there but it's their choice.

 

[Ignatius A]

Yes, it was. And simple, but a nice illustration of the difference between how a critical thinker and a faith-based thinker answer a question or reply to a comment.

Do you know any critical thinkers? My father taught me an honest man should never have to tell you he's honest it should be obvious in his actions. Ive learned it's true in regards to other traits as well. It's been invaluable in helping me separate the wheat form the chaff

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Hell is real and people will end up there but it's their choice.

There is no reason to believe hell exists, but if it does and it's a choice, almost nobody would choose it. This is just the believer threatening the unbeliever and trying to blame the victim of a sadistically cruel and unjust god for his fate after guessing wrong about an unseen god and failing to obey and worship it.

If such a god actually existed, then we would all have an unpleasant fate in our futures. One shouldn't trust that such a god has his best interests at heart or is a benevolent god.

Do you believe Trump when he tells you that he loves the J6 "patriots" and "hostages"? You shouldn't. He has the same need to be obeyed, worshiped, and to extract vengeance on those that don't give it to him. These are qualities that should make you distrust both Trump and a god that shares them.

If Trump promises you something personally, like payment or to follow through on something he said he's do, expect to be cheated or disappointed.

What do you believe your god promises you, and what assurance do you have that it could and would honor those promises? What if heaven isn't as nice as the brochure or if you have a forbidden thought there? What if this deity tires of you or some of the angels complain about you?

Do you know any critical thinkers?

Yes. So do you, but likely fewer than I know.

My father taught me an honest man should never have to tell you he's honest it should be obvious in his actions. Ive learned it's true in regards to other traits as well.

Agreed.

It's been invaluable in helping me separate the wheat form the chaff

I assume that that was a backhanded slur at me for including myself among critical thinkers and you among faith-based thinkers, but if you were the former, you'd have given me a better answer, one that attempts to falsify those assumptions such as examples of my critical thought failures if you think you see that or examples of your critical thought in religion. You didn't because you can't, and you can't because the claim is correct. There was a huge chasm between your answer and mine.

Did you understand what was meant by, "Yes, it [your response] was [easy]. And simple, but a nice illustration of the difference between how a critical thinker and a faith-based thinker answer a question or reply to a comment"? I gave an argument, and rather than address it, you mimicked its conclusion with a bare, unsupported claim.

You did the same in this post. If you were a critical thinker, you'd have explained how you know that that hell is real using valid reason applied to evidence. But you don't do that. You just post unjustified, unfalsifiable, faith-based beliefs, which I rebutted, and THAT is the difference between the us.

 

[stevecanuck]

And? Hell is real and people will end up there but it's their choice.

Unless you're a Muslim, we should try to get together for a cup of molten brass when we get there.

 

[jimb]

And what is this righteous cause/ obvious truth?

Because I hate eternal damnation for believing the wrong set of things. And I don't subscribe to a God that doesn't exist. And I certainly won't worship a God that doesn't reveal His nature.

The real situation is that God reveals nothing of who He is, and let's valid reasons for not believing in His existence reign over humanity.

Besides eternal damnation means that God is unwilling to change the hearts of the damned. This God would rather have a place of forever torture then actually defeat evil. A place of lingering waste and destruction and torture forever and ever instead of making life where there is none is defeatist.

Not so.

Romans 1:18-20a, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those who by their injustice suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. Ever since the creation of the world God’s eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been seen and understood through the things God has made."

Regarding your second assertion, it is up to each person to decide of s/he will accept God's gift of salvation. Jesus Christ was crucified so that everyone can be saved, but it is up to each person to make the choice: eternal life with God, or eternal separation.

John 3:16-18, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

“Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

 

[shunyadragon]

If only that was true.

It is true in standard English language definition, which you have difficulty understanding.

So if I am standing on a cliff and can see two trains headed in opposite directions.on the same track and I know they will collide then my knowledge that they will collide has caused that collision to happen.

Your view of foreknowledge is not the issue. Actually unless you caused the crash that may happen. You do not have foreknowledge other than seeing the trains approaching tha tmay crash.

It is not the subject of the thread. It concerns God.

Foreknow; Foreknowledge Meaning - Bible Definition and References​

Discover the meaning of Foreknow; Foreknowledge in the Bible. Study the definition of Foreknow; Foreknowledge with multiple Bible Dictionaries and Encyclopedias and find scripture references in the Old and New Testaments.

www.biblestudytools.com

Foreknowledge Based on Foreordination: God's foreknowledge, according to the Scripture teaching, is based upon His plan or eternal purpose, which embraces everything that comes to pass. God is never represented as a mere onlooker seeing the future course of events, but having no part in it.

I believe may have responded to this before,but nonetheless it worth responding to again.

 

[Ignatius A]

There is no reason to believe hell exists, but if it does and it's a choice, almost nobody would choose it. This is just the believer threatening the unbeliever and trying to blame the victim of a sadistically cruel and unjust god for his fate after guessing wrong about an unseen god and failing to obey and worship it.

If such a god actually existed, then we would all have an unpleasant fate in our futures. One shouldn't trust that such a god has his best interests at heart or is a benevolent god.

Do you believe Trump when he tells you that he loves the J6 "patriots" and "hostages"? You shouldn't. He has the same need to be obeyed, worshiped, and to extract vengeance on those that don't give it to him. These are qualities that should make you distrust both Trump and a god that shares them.

If Trump promises you something personally, like payment or to follow through on something he said he's do, expect to be cheated or disappointed.

What do you believe your god promises you, and what assurance do you have that it could and would honor those promises? What if heaven isn't as nice as the brochure or if you have a forbidden thought there? What if this deity tires of you or some of the angels complain about you?

Yes. So do you, but likely fewer than I know.

Agreed.

I assume that that was a backhanded slur at me for including myself among critical thinkers and you among faith-based thinkers, but if you were the former, you'd have given me a better answer, one that attempts to falsify those assumptions such as examples of my critical thought failures if you think you see that or examples of your critical thought in religion. You didn't because you can't, and you can't because the claim is correct. There was a huge chasm between your answer and mine.

Did you understand what was meant by, "Yes, it [your response] was [easy]. And simple, but a nice illustration of the difference between how a critical thinker and a faith-based thinker answer a question or reply to a comment"? I gave an argument, and rather than address it, you mimicked its conclusion with a bare, unsupported claim.

You did the same in this post. If you were a critical thinker, you'd have explained how you know that that hell is real using valid reason applied to evidence. But you don't do that. You just post unjustified, unfalsifiable, faith-based beliefs, which I rebutted, and THAT is the difference between the us.

You are free to reject whatever you like.

 

[osgart]

Not so.

Romans 1:18-20a, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those who by their injustice suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. Ever since the creation of the world God’s eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been seen and understood through the things God has made."

Regarding your second assertion, it is up to each person to decide of s/he will accept God's gift of salvation. Jesus Christ was crucified so that everyone can be saved, but it is up to each person to make the choice: eternal life with God, or eternal separation.

John 3:16-18, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

“Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Empty false claims from the Bible that can't be demonstrated to be true. Nothing of any moral substance in all of that. Condemnation from falsehood is all you got there.