The qur'an

[Autodidact]

"...an obscure, incoherent, bizarre medieval text, a curious amalgam of Talmudic Judaism, apocryphal Christianity, and pagan superstitions that is full of barbarisms."

Ibn Warraq

Thoughts?

 

[astarath]

Agreed.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Meh... there is good and bad, barbarisms and inspirations in every sacred text.

 

[MathewJames]

"...an obscure, incoherent, bizarre medieval text, a curious amalgam of Talmudic Judaism, apocryphal Christianity, and pagan superstitions that is full of barbarisms."

Ibn Warraq

Thoughts?

My thought is that the person who thinks the Qur'an can be described this way has never read it, or they listen to people who have never read it.

 

[ppɐʇɹnɯ]

"...an obscure, incoherent, bizarre medieval text, a curious amalgam of Talmudic Judaism, apocryphal Christianity, and pagan superstitions that is full of barbarisms."

Ibn Warraq

Thoughts?

That's a pretty fair assessment. Although we have to mention at the same time that Christianity itself is isn't a homogenous entity either. It's a mix of Hellenistic Judaism, Greco-Roman paganism, Egyptian mystery religions, an a healthy dose of Roman political dogma.

 

[Autodidact]

My thought is that the person who thinks the Qur'an can be described this way has never read it, or they listen to people who have never read it.

Actually, he's extremely well-educated on it, has studied it in Classical Arabic, as well as its history, the hadiths and centuries of study and commentary on it.

 

[TJ73]

"...an obscure, incoherent, bizarre medieval text, a curious amalgam of Talmudic Judaism, apocryphal Christianity, and pagan superstitions that is full of barbarisms."

Ibn Warraq

Thoughts?

I think this is the sentiment of someone that has learned, like so many others in this field, that hate pays and rather well at that. This individual is of the most sought after type of ati-Islamist because he comes from a Muslim identified country. There are some very successful anti-Islamists, the world is ripe for this new occupation with bloggers and public speakers. It is unimaginable, yet so obviously accepted, that people can and are encouraged to make a living hurting other people, defiling their beliefs and calling others to do the same.
Could you imagine if people were paid to incite racism in the public forum and invited to churches and news programs and universities?
People like to have someone to hate. People want to feel justified in doing so and enjoy the sense of comradeship of group hate. Muslims aren't the first, probably won't be the last.
But fortunately in my own life I just don't experience it in my normal life. I was born Jewish, I'm half black part Native American and Polish. The worst treatment i have suffered was when I was fat. Fat is to me the last frontier of hate.

 

[Madhuri]

Honestly, I tried reading parts of the Quran and just found it mundane and un-inspirational. After growing up with the large volume of material and dense philosophy of the Vedic scriptures, it's hard to pick up something like the Quran or Bible and get anything out of it. They seem like children books in comparison.

 

[Badran]

Well, i hope serious & fair assessments will be made anytime soon in this thread, aside from the poster who said there is good and bad.

A little bit of a respectful and mature approach won't hurt neither. I'm sure thats too much to hope for though.

 

[Autodidact]

I think this is the sentiment of someone that has learned, like so many others in this field, that hate pays and rather well at that. This individual is of the most sought after type of ati-Islamist because he comes from a Muslim identified country. There are some very successful anti-Islamists, the world is ripe for this new occupation with bloggers and public speakers. It is unimaginable, yet so obviously accepted, that people can and are encouraged to make a living hurting other people, defiling their beliefs and calling others to do the same.
Could you imagine if people were paid to incite racism in the public forum and invited to churches and news programs and universities?
People like to have someone to hate. People want to feel justified in doing so and enjoy the sense of comradeship of group hate. Muslims aren't the first, probably won't be the last.
But fortunately in my own life I just don't experience it in my normal life. I was born Jewish, I'm half black part Native American and Polish. The worst treatment i have suffered was when I was fat. Fat is to me the last frontier of hate.

What are you talking about? Did you even read the passage? There's nothing about hate in it, nothing against Muslims. It's a critical reaction to a book. Is it true or false? If false, please show how.

furthermore, the only thing writing something anti-Islamic does is put the writer's life in danger. Apparently Muslims think an appropriate way to deal with criticism is murder.

 

[Autodidact]

I can only read the qur'an in English, because that is the only language I read. The majority of the world's Muslims do not speak even modern Arabic, and a tiny number can read Classical Arabic, which the qur'an is written in. Classical Arabic, like other semitic languages, is written with consonants only, and the form of a word, or sometimes which word, depends on implying the vowels. For this reason alone, the text is ambiguous. Most people who rely on it memorize verses in a language they do not themselves understand.

It contains words, phrases and entire passages that are ambiguous and obscure. Experts argue about the meaning of key words, such as jihad.

Further, it contradicts itself frequently. There is an entire subject of scholarship and doctrine to deal with this, which is called abrogation. The idea is that later passages cancel out earlier ones when they contradict them. Why God would give us contradictory passages to reconcile is unclear. The problem is, the book is not written in chronological order, so it takes a certain level of expertise to figure out which ones come later.

 

[A-ManESL]

"...an obscure, incoherent, bizarre medieval text, a curious amalgam of Talmudic Judaism, apocryphal Christianity, and pagan superstitions that is full of barbarisms."

Ibn Warraq

Thoughts?

This person has not understood the Quran. He is just spewing hate. As far as I know of him, his writings have a bias towards Christian fundamentalism. I class him along with other hate-mongers and not worthy of serious discussion.

I think the only so called scholarly people who have praised Warraq are other anti-Islamics, which indicates his lack of scholarly repute.

Regards

 

[A-ManESL]

Autodidact do you start with the assumptions that scholars of theology are supposed to be the experts in interpreting the Quran? If so, may I ask why?

 

[astarath]

So any scholar who speaks of Islam in a negative fashion is not worthy of dispute?

 

[Autodidact]

This person has not understood the Quran. He is just spewing hate. As far as I know of him, his writings have a bias towards Christian fundamentalism. I class him along with other hate-mongers and not worthy of serious discussion.

I think the only so called scholarly people who have praised Warraq are other anti-Islamics, which indicates his lack of scholarly repute.

Regards

So the only response you have is an ad hominem attack. You do know that ad hominen is a fallacy, right? Basically, your post is about the same as admitting you have no response, so thanks for that.

Oh, and Ibn Warraq is an atheist.

 

[Autodidact]

Autodidact do you start with the assumptions that scholars of theology are supposed to be the experts in interpreting the Quran? If so, may I ask why?

If they're scholars of Islamic theology, yes, why do you ask?

 

[Ilisrum]

I've read Ibn Warraq's book Why I Am Not A Muslim. Although it's informational, he's far too biased and must be taken with a grain of salt. Essentially polemics from a disgruntled ex-Muslim (now an atheist). I haven't read any of his other works, but they've been criticized by Islamic scholars such as Fred Donner as biased and one-sided.

I do agree with him that the Qu'ran is somewhat incoherent, though.

 

[Autodidact]

Surely if the qur'an is the masterpiece that Muslims claim, it should be trivially easy to prove me wrong by producing the many powerful verses of eloquence and wisdom that will show just how silly this criticism is. Verses like this:


And they ask you concerning the menstruation. Say: "It is harmful; so keep aloof from women during the menstruation, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have cleansed themselves you come to them in any manner as Allah has ordained you." Allah certainly loves the turners, and He loves the strivers to purification. 2:222

And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. (That is, your slaves.) 4:24

If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.
4:34
That's right, the qur'an instructs men to hit their wives. That's some eternal wisdom and compassion there.

I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
8:12
Ineffefable! The subtlety! The poetry and rhythm!

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you.
2:216
Not only glorious poetry, but the compassion for all of humanity...the noble qur'an.

These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), “Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!” 22:19-22;
Sheer joy to read!


2:65 And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!

I could quote verses of inexpressable music like this all day!


2:67 And when Moses said unto his people: Lo! Allah commandeth you that ye sacrifice a cow, they said: Dost thou make game of us ? He answered: Allah forbid that I should be among the foolish! 2:68 They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith, Verily she is a cow neither with calf nor immature; (she is) between the two conditions; so do that which ye are commanded. 2:69 They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us of what colour she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a yellow cow. Bright is her colour, gladdening beholders. 2:70 They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. Lo! cows are much alike to us; and Lo! if Allah wills, we may be led aright. 2:71 (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a cow unyoked; she plougheth not the soil nor watereth the tilth; whole and without mark. They said: Now thou bringest the truth. So they sacrificed her, though almost they did not.
WTF is it driveling on about?

 

[Badran]

So any scholar who speaks of Islam in a negative fashion is not worthy of dispute?

Not at all. However, when presented with someone describing a book this way, whats there to say really?

For example, someone says that book X is:

"Weird, contains real wacky stuff, false, copying from other various books, and its really old".

What is there to say, but to mention the fact that the person saying this is indeed anti-Islamic. Praised by mainly if not literally only, other anti-Muslims, such as Daniel Pipes.

Should we say, No, the Quran is a really beautiful and very inspirational book? Would that have been of any value? Coming from Muslims that is?

There is simply nothing of value to say.

 

[Madhuri]

There must be problems with the translation. Very often I cannot understand what is being said in verses quoted by our own Muslim members here. But they seem to be able to understand it, somehow.