The reasons why Islamic women wear the Veil

[outhouse]

If you are going to ask the holy spirit for guide what is the point of having the bible?

To use as a gudie to live a better life.

Christians all use and apply different levels of how inspired their books are. It is not a dogma like yours that is universal.

 

[Sabour]

You just implied in another thread you avoid the truth, and refuse to debate.

I think you should practice what you tell other people.

Or do not apply standards to others religions, that you do not apply to your own.

As always you understand what you want too.

I don't engage in such arguments in the other thread. I answer when asked. I am not here to convince anyone because in that regard, no one can convince anyone about something he believes in. Islam needs a person to initiate the search himself. It requires someone to remove the misconceptions and open his heart and ask Allah for guidance from deep inside.

No one can help any other person in that.

I am just here to answer questions and exchange ideas. I am not here to debate.

 

[Sabour]

the bible was written by men, not by God.



all the women of that period are portrayed with the veil. here, Myriam's mother, Anna, with her daughter and Jesus. 15th century painting

Myriam's mother doesn't represent all the other people

 

[beenie]

The veil is part of the hijab. Hijab is not just the veil a girl puts to cover her head. It is about not showing her beauty to men.


Anyways let me answer your question from the Quran.

33:59 O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

33:32-33

O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women. If you fear Allah , then do not be soft in speech [to men], lest he in whose heart is disease should covet, but speak with appropriate speech.

And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.

Nowhere does it say to cover one's hair. God wouldn't be vague about this detail if it was a requirement.

 

[outhouse]

[/IMG]

Myriam's mother doesn't represent all the other people

It would be laughable if anyone thinks this painting represents the actual Mary from Galilee.

That is not a historical representation.

 

[outhouse]

I am not here to debate.

Then you should not post in this "debate" section. Because that is where your at.


If your here to proselytize the same faith section, might be better.

 

[Sabour]

Nowhere does it say to cover one's hair. God wouldn't be vague about this detail if it was a requirement.

24:31

And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.

 

[outhouse]

24:31

And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.

Yes very very vague.

Sounds to me like, like cover up and be decent. Not running around naked. Which is not cover up only having eyes visible.

 

[Sabour]

Yes very very vague.

Sounds to me like, like cover up and be decent. Not running around naked. Which is not cover up only having eyes visible.

If something seems vague in Islam, you should refer to explanations and hadith when available about the verses. This is the way we do it in Islam.

 

[outhouse]

If something seems vague in Islam, you should refer to explanations and hadith when available about the verses. This is the way we do it in Islam.

Your own people murder each other over translations, how one sect views it, is not how another one does.

Do you speak for all, or just one sect?

 

[Estro Felino]

I answer when asked. I am not here to convince anyone because in that regard, no one can convince anyone about something he believes in. Islam needs a person to initiate the search himself. It requires someone to remove the misconceptions and open his heart and ask Allah for guidance from deep inside.

I really appreciate your clarifications, and you magnificently explained why women should wear the veil. To protect themselves.
But I used the verb "should" and not "must".

so...all my thread is reflecting about the veil as a choice, not as an obligation.
Nobody is allowed to force anyone to do something

 

[beenie]

24:31

And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.

You can interpret that however you wish, but it doesn't say to cover every single strand of hair on a woman's head the way it is enforced on women all over the world by mullahs and imams who scare women into wearing it. That verse without all the parentheses and additions is vague. I don't want to hear how women were covering their hair and this is a verse to include the bosom. That's the stuff that I hear day in and day out, and quite frankly, the whole hair-covering topic is tired. Good grief, there are Muslims killing each other and being killed all over and we're still discussing completely inane topics like hijab.

I'm going back to the beach.

 

[beenie]

The hijab doesn't protect women, behavior and common street sense does. Putting a scarf on to protect women is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

It's also insulting to menfolk to think that if a women isn't wearing polyester or cotton on her head, he can't be trusted around her.

I'm all for choices, but most even women who "choose" to wear it because they are told they have to.

Ok NOW I'm going back the the beach.

:beach:

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Basically, it was a cultural thing from that area of the world that was later written into the religions. People should be allowed to wear what they want, within reason.

 

[gnostic]

If Muslim men can't control themselves, then they are the ones who should be controlled; force men to wear blindfold or sacks over heads.

Punish the men for the rapes, not some poor women because of what clothes they are wearing.

That's one of the reason why I see Islamic societies and their law to be backward and misogynous.

Muslims, even here, often blame the West as treating women as sex objects, but Muslims are really no better, when they women as properties, no better than cattle. They get raped, and they are blamed for what clothes they wear, and these women are punished for it.

It is no wonder, in Muslim countries, rapes often go unreported because of stupid Muslim laws, politics and communities will often punished the victims, or become outcasts.

 

[beenie]

Yes, people in deserts often covered their heads out of necessity to protect their heads from the heat. It truly was a regional practice.

 

[outhouse]

Yes, people in deserts often covered their heads out of necessity to protect their heads from the heat. It truly was a regional practice.

Do you see the religion evolving forward from this practice as a whole?


Knowing it is a regional practice, that differs from one location to the next.

 

[Mycroft]

There is nothing in the Quran to support the wearing of the niqab or burqa.

Quoting myself from another thread and, perhaps, finding it more relevant here:

There was an outcry when the French sought to repudiate the wearing of the niqab or the burqa. On the one hand - whether it covered the face or the whole body - it was seen as an attempt at a "ban". On the other hand it was also an attempt to lift a ban: a ban on the right of women to choose what they want to wear and a ban on the right of women to disagree with clerical authority. Not to mention the right of all people to be able to look each other in the face. While I am not necessarily a fan of law itself, I found that this particular French law to be in the best traditions of the French republic, which declares all citizens equal before the law and—more importantly—equal in the face of each other.

When I go to my bank there's a sign on the door requesting the removal of any facial concealment and headgear that conceals the face. It doesn't bother to tell me why. I already know why: A person entering a bank with a mask on his face would be stopped by security and questions as to their intent asked. Every reasonable human being knows that people who enter a bank wearing a mask seldon have good intentions.

Many would indignantly refuse to be administered to by a nurse or a doctor who hid his face (at least beyond the wearing of surgical masks for which there is a known and proper purpose). Or even a tax or customs official. If the police wore masks, how much more intimidated might people be by their presence?

Yet the special and, somewhat particular, demand to wear the burqa and niqab to be exempt applies only to women. And, unless you're stupid enough to pretend other wise, only to women of one single religion. This, pretty much, says it all: Society is being asked to abandon an immemorial tradition of equality and openness in order to gratify one faith, one faith that has a very questionable record in respect of females.

Those people say the burqa and niqab should be allowed. Those people who say 'people have a right to choose to wear whatever they want!': What about the Ku Klux Klan? They are notorious for their wearing of the white hood. Should they be free (according to your own ideas) to wear their hoods in public and in banks whenever they like? I don't deny the KKK their right to a belief, even if I don't respect that belief (one does not have to respect a belief, merely the right to a belief). I would even go as far as to say that at a proper rally, protected by police, they could even hide their piggy little faces. But I think having such a hooded person teach or administer medical practice or drive your taxi or bus or train would be unacceptable. And there is no law that says anyone should have to suffer that.

There are of course other matters that surround the wearing of masks and dress that conceals the face. Criminals use masks to hide their faces and make an escape. Concealing headwear has also been used to cover up the terrible injuries of physically abused women. It hinders the peripheral vision, too, when driving or crossing the road. These may remove it from the area of private decision making and makes it a potential danger to others, as well as offending the ordinary democratic civility that depends on phrases like "Nice to see you."

We find it objectionable enough that in some Muslim countries women are not allowed to drive in the first place. But this brings us to the second point. All of the objections above might be valid if Muslim women were as passionately commited to wearing the burqa or the niqab as the people of the Klan are as committed to wearing the white head shround. Yet, in fact, we have no real assurance that women who wear such headgear do so of their own choice. At least generally speaking. And, generally speaking, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that they don't wear it by choice. Stories of wives, mothers and children threatened with violence or disfigurement or (so-called) honour-killing if they don't wear the, frankly, humiliating and embarrassing niqab or burqa as mandated by the menfolk of that religion.

This is why, in some Muslim countries, such as Turkey and Tunisia, the wearing of such things is illegal in official buildings, schools, and universities. So why should Europeans and Americans alike, perhaps seeking to find themselves accomodating of Muslim immigrants, refugees, and thri beliefs, adopt the standards of only the most backward and primitive Muslim states? The burqa and the niqab, surely, are the most aggressive sign of the refusal to integrate or accomodate. I found when I lived in Iran that there is only a requirement for the covering of hair. That's right: women only have to wear a hijab in Iran. And many women try to subvert this as much as they can by showing a little hair (mainly younger women).

I defy anybody to find any authority in the Quran for the concealment of the face.

Not that it matters whether the Quran endorses it or not (it doesn't). Religion is, and always will be, the worse excuse for an exception to common law. Mormons may not have polygamous marriage (at least here in the UK), female circumcision is a federal crime in America (I have discovered), and in some states Scientologists face prosecution if they neglect their child by denying them proper medical care. Should we then make exceptions for Muslims? Should we admonish the French for declaring all citizens citizens and residents, whatever their religion, must be able to recognise one another in the clearest sense of that universal term?

It's simple, really. One person's right to see another's face is the beginning of it, as is the right to see the other's face. Next but not least is the right of women to show their faces, which easily outweighs the right of their male relatives or the imams to decide otherwise. The law must be on the side of transparency. The right of women to show their faces should be seen not only as a cause for liberty and equality, but for fraternity and sorority, too.

 

[Mycroft]

Yes, people in deserts often covered their heads out of necessity to protect their heads from the heat. It truly was a regional practice.

It would be foolish to pretend that this reasoning can be in any way applied to the reason why Muslim women are forced to wear the Niqab or Burqa.

 

[beenie]

It would be foolish to pretend that this reasoning can be in any way applied to the reason why Muslim women are forced to wear the Niqab or Burqa.

Niqab and burqa are an entirely different topic, but I agree with you that it's a huge stretch.

Do you see the religion evolving forward from this practice as a whole?

Knowing it is a regional practice, that differs from one location to the next.

One would hope so, but it seems that traditionalists always win in this matter, and people are hanging on to the older school of thinking. For every woman who removes their hijabs, three more put it on. I would have no objection to it whatsoever if it truly was their choice and not through difficult-to-recognize fear-mongering.