The reasons why Islamic women wear the Veil

[Sabour]

Except violence against women happens significantly more in Islamic Countries.

I already know what the Quran says, It pretty blatantly advocates violence against women.

The Quran, chapter 4 (An-Nisa), verse 34
"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand"

Of course, People want to pass it off as 'a light tap' which is bullox, But even if that were true, lightly tapping women is a dominating gesture meant to make women subservient, Which the verse makes obvious anyway.

In summary, The Quran's message is this - Hit your wife until she does what you want.

And here we come to the part where we have to look up for hadith and explanation to know the meaning of the verses.


The main problem about hitting the wife come from the verse 4:34

4:34 Dr. Ghali

Men are the ever upright (managers) (of the affairs) of women for what Allah has graced some of them over (some) others and for what they have expended of their riches. So righteous women are devout, preservers of the Unseen for. And the ones whom you fear their non-compliance, then admonish them and forsake them in their beds, (Literally: a madajic= reeclining) and strike them, (i.e. hit them lightly) yet in case they obey you, then do not seek inequitably any way against them; surely Allah has been Ever-Exalted, Ever-Great.






The word looks not nice. But how the "beat" is taken ? The problem here is in the word lightly. Other translations has this part as "strike them", so in my comments I will refer to the "beating" by the word "strike them" as it is written in the Sahih International translation.

"When the above Quran verse authorizing the beating of a refractory wife was revealed, the Prophet is reported to have said: "I wanted one thing, but God has willed another thing – and what God has willed must be best (see Manar V, 74). With all this, he stipulated in his sermon on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage, shortly before his death, that the beating should be resorted to only if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct", and that it should be done "in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih)"; authentic Traditions to this effect are found in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Daud, Nasai and Ibn Majah. On the basis of these Traditions, all the authorities stress that this beating, if resorted to at all, should be more or less symbolic – "with a toothbrush, or some such thing" (Tabari, quoting the views of scholars of the earliest times), or even "with a folded handkerchief" (Razi); and some of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g. Ash-Shafii) are of the opinion that it is just barely permissible, and should preferable be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the prophet’s personal feelings with regard to this problem."[41]


the purpose is not inflicting pain.

If someone came to me and said to me "we are in danger", I may have different reactions.

I may thing he is exaggerating it.
I may think we are in little danger.
I may think there is really a huge danger.

But if someone came, and shook my body and told me we are in danger, than I would understand that it is big. So establishing physical contact delivers the message more effectively. And we are talking about serious problem in the verse. It is marriage and divorce.

Striking came out to be the third stage. The two previous stages are [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed.

Let us reflect on these verses by thinking of the situation.

The first stage was advising them. How much time would advising them take? A day or two? Ofcourse not. This is a serious problem, a first stage requires more time than that.

Stage 2 is [then if they persist], forsake them in bed. Similarly I think forsaking requires more time than a 1 week by logic.

Step 3 Is the striking [with a toothbrush].

However just because the striking is there, doesn't mean you have to strike. Read the verse which is after that. It says

4:35 And if you fear dissension between the two, send an arbitrator from his people and an arbitrator from her people. If they both desire reconciliation, Allah will cause it between them. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Acquainted [with all things].

Therefore, you can go for the verse 4:35 to solve the problem. Just because it says strike them doesn't mean striking is for the purpose of inflicting pain. Neither does it mean you have to do it because you have to read the full context.

 

[Sabour]

Where is this violence in Western Countries? In Summer lots of men go to the beach and see women in bikinis and yet they do not rape them.
actually they don't even look at them...because...let's be honest...there are not the macho- men of the past any more.
There are only narcissistic metrosexuals and bisexuals left

Why don't you look at the results as a whole.

Referring to one incident and saying look nothing happened serves nothing. Who said that here every women goes to the beach in a bikini gets raped?

Would you discuss things more wisely please. You are being to shallow.

 

[Thana]

Therefore, you can go for the verse 4:35 to solve the problem. Just because it says strike them doesn't mean striking is for the purpose of inflicting pain. Neither does it mean you have to do it because you have to read the full context.

Like I said, Even if that were true (and it's not) lightly striking a woman is a dominating gesture meant to make a woman subservient.

The main problem about hitting the wife come from the verse 4:34

4:34 Dr. Ghali

Men are the ever upright (managers) (of the affairs) of women for what Allah has graced some of them over (some) others and for what they have expended of their riches. So righteous women are devout, preservers of the Unseen for. And the ones whom you fear their non-compliance, then admonish them and forsake them in their beds, (Literally: a madajic= reeclining) and strike them, (i.e. hit them lightly) yet in case they obey you, then do not seek inequitably any way against them; surely Allah has been Ever-Exalted, Ever-Great.

Men are the managers of women?
I probably earn more than most men and have more assets than most men. I don't need a man to 'manage' me or my affairs.

Islam is trying to oppress women, As you've just so kindly provided evidence of.

 

[Estro Felino]

so your first concern is hardly locked on sex in such arelations where commandment is kept. your society also doesnt condition you to act as if you need to survive proving how sexy you are. but of course there will always be people who attract each other like magnets no matter what they wear. nothing can be done about it

well..I respect your view but it doesn't reflect the social context where I live. A context in which the women who don't take care of their looks, will remain virgins for the rest of their lives, because no man will look at them.
I can give you an example. A friend of mine is really cute: green eyes, blonde hair. But in the college period, she started neglecting her looks. She wore glasses and uncool large clothes. And in fact no man looked at her. I was desperate because she was 21 and she was still a virgin.
Fortunately she started wearing sexy clothes and contact lenses. A cute guy became interested in her and now they are still together (or at least, I hope).
But at least she could lose her virginity. That was a relief.

 

[Sabour]

Like I said, Even if that were true (and it's not) lightly striking a woman is a dominating gesture meant to make a woman subservient.



Men are the managers of women?
I probably earn more than most men and have more assets than most men. I don't need a man to 'manage' me or my affairs.

Islam is trying to oppress women, As you've just so kindly provided evidence of.

The aim is not dominating and making women subservient. The aim is to show how serious the situation is. It is like when someone is talking to you and shakes your body to make you understand it is serious. Besides I said it is not a must as the following verse shows.

Second there are two reasons why men are in charge of women. First is because of the nature of his body and strength, so he is reponsible for her, second it is his duty to make a living.

Now you are upset because women are given that honor in Islam and you view it as a kind of oppression? I think you are being biased.

 

[Estro Felino]

Would you discuss things more wisely please. You are being to shallow.

I am just describing the social context where I live. Shall I tell you a lie? Shall I tell you that there are lots of men drooling before sexy women in bikinis in the beach?

 

[Thana]

The aim is not dominating and making women subservient. The aim is to show how serious the situation is. It is like when someone is talking to you and shakes your body to make you understand it is serious. Besides I said it is not a must as the following verse shows.

Second there are two reasons why men are in charge of women. First is because of the nature of his body and strength, so he is reponsible for her, second it is his duty to make a living.

Now you are ****** because women are given that honor in Islam and you view it as a kind of oppression? I think you are being biased.

Mmhmm. You know how you can get someone to realize an issue is serious?
By telling them it is serious. You don't need to hit them.

It's not an honor! It's putting men above women when they have no business being there. I can work just as much as you, just as hard as you and even become as physically strong as you. I don't need you, a man, at all.
Hell, I don't even need a man to have a baby. I can just go to a sperm bank! Now Good luck trying to explain why men are in charge of women.

 

[Sabour]

I am just describing the social context where I live. Shall I tell you a lie? Shall I tell you that there are lots of men drooling before sexy women in bikinis in the beach?

They don't even look at them. Maybe men stare at each others' muscles, nowadays. but not at women

That wasn't what I was trying to say.

I mean look at the general outcome. Men get proud of their women because they are T.V stars and get on T.V showing every part of their body they can show and children are proud of their mother being a star and showing her body too. It is normal. It is viewed as freedom and completely normal.

 

[Estro Felino]

That wasn't what I was trying to say.

I mean look at the general outcome. Men get proud of their women because they are T.V stars and get on T.V showing every part of their body they can show and children are proud of their mother being a star and showing her body too. It is normal. It is viewed as freedom and completely normal.

it is completely normal.

 

[Sabour]

Mmhmm. You know how you can get someone to realize an issue is serious?
By telling them it is serious. You don't need to hit them.

It's not an honor! It's putting men above women when they have no business being there. I can work just as much as you, just as hard as you and even become as physically strong as you. I don't need you, a man, at all.
Hell, I don't even need a man to have a baby. I can just go to a sperm bank! Now Good luck trying to explain why men are in charge of women.

Than let us go to the other solution which is not hitting them lightly if that annoys you. This is what the following verse states!!!

And you can't come physically strong as men!

Anyways even if you don't want the men to be at charge of you financially, this would make him glad, I wish nothing more than a women which sets me free of my duty to supply money for the family, I will be keeping the money for me happily. But I may be held responsible for that infront of God.

It is not an oppression, it is a kind of our duty. It is something extra given for women. A kind of special attention.


Anyways I think I have made my points.

Thank you for the discussion. I would still engage in the discussion if you have something new to add.

 

[Sabour]

it is completely normal.

And I say that is part of the problem.

 

[Thana]

And you can't come physically strong as men!

Oh really now?

She could probably knock you out with one hit.

Anyways even if you don't want the men to be at charge of you financially, this would make him glad, I wish nothing more than a women which sets me free of my duty to supply money for the family, I will be keeping the money for me happily. But I may be held responsible for that infront of God.

It is not an oppression, it is a kind of our duty. It is something extra given for women. A kind of special attention.

That is sexism, It's not equal and it is oppression. Of men clearly aswell, Since they're obligated to financially support their family while the wife doesn't have too.

Ridiculous. Just ridiculous.

 

[ametist]

well..I respect your view but it doesn't reflect the social context where I live. A context in which the women who don't take care of their looks, will remain virgins for the rest of their lives, because no man will look at them.
I can give you an example. A friend of mine is really cute: green eyes, blonde hair. But in the college period, she started neglecting her looks. She wore glasses and uncool large clothes. And in fact no man looked at her. I was desperate because she was 21 and she was still a virgin.
Fortunately she started wearing sexy clothes and contact lenses. A cute guy became interested in her and now they are still together (or at least, I hope).
But at least she could lose her virginity. That was a relief.

i respect your view, too and i am glad your friend is now happy with the person she loves.

 

[Estro Felino]

And I say that is part of the problem.

all right...but I think that you can be decent without wearing a veil.
Look at Queen Rania of Jordan. She is very beautiful, she wears feminine fashionable clothes and makeup.
Her husband is really gorgeous. One of the most handsome men I've ever seen. Rania made him fall in love with her, through her beauty and her intelligence (she is a Economics graduate)
so as you can see, showing beauty is necessary to get the man you love.

 

[Sabour]

Oh really now?

She could probably knock you out with one hit.



That is sexism, It's not equal and it is oppression. Of men clearly aswell, Since they're obligated to financially support their family while the wife doesn't have too.

Ridiculous. Just ridiculous.

All women can reach that sure.

Take two children aged 16 who never went to gym. Tell me who is stronger?

Stop taking one example and applying it. Seriously. You all do the same thing

 

[Sabour]

all right...but I think that you can be decent without wearing a veil.
Look at Queen Rania of Jordan. She is very beautiful, she wears feminine fashionable clothes and makeup.
Her husband is really gorgeous. One of the most handsome men I've ever seen. Rania made him fall in love with her, through her beauty and her intelligence (she is a Economics graduate)
so as you can see, showing beauty is necessary to get the man you love.

Showing your beauty to win love isn't a good call. Tomorrow he will see someone more beautiful and leave you. Now please don't take an example and generalize. I am talking what is bound to happen in most cases.

I am not married yet. When I want to marry I would be looking for the girls who are trying to show her beauty so that I WON'T have her on my list.

I look for self respect innocence and purity instead of beauty and body parts showing all over.

When I will marry I will know that my wife is all mine and not for me to share with other men.

 

[ametist]

Showing your beauty to win love isn't a good call. Tomorrow he will see someone more beautiful and leave you. Now please don't take an example and generalize. I am talking what is bound to happen in most cases.

I am not married yet. When I want to marry I would be looking for the girls who are trying to show her beauty so that I WON'T have her on my list.

I look for self respect innocence and purity instead of beauty and body parts showing all over.

When I will marry I will know that my wife is all mine and not for me to share with other men.

your wife isnt all yours. not even your kids are. ownership is of god's.

 

[Nakosis]

Then obviously the fault lies with the men, If this is your belief, And they're the ones that need to do something about it.

Making women cover themselves because you can't control yourself is like hating chocolate and expecting everyone else to never eat it because you hate it.
It's ridiculous.

Of course, I don't believe this is why Muslim men make women cover themselves, But I'll indulge those who do.

You assume that men can do something about it.

To me I find it interesting to watch the behavior of men almost universally change around beautiful women.

If you need to run a civilization you need your leaders to think with a clear head. Men have a difficult time with this. Think about Helen of Troy.

It's not about hate, it is about accepting the reality of human nature. Women who are not physically attractive do not have the same opportunities. It is sad really. To get all women to be treated equal is a difficult task.

I see women who are not physically attractive refuse to look directly at me because they have probably been ridiculed their whole life because of their looks. Even from other women. The fear of another look of disapproval because of genetics. Nothing they had any control over. One's physical appearance should not define a person. Unfortunately in our society it does.

 

[Looncall]

Showing your beauty to win love isn't a good call. Tomorrow he will see someone more beautiful and leave you. Now please don't take an example and generalize. I am talking what is bound to happen in most cases.

I am not married yet. When I want to marry I would be looking for the girls who are trying to show her beauty so that I WON'T have her on my list.

I look for self respect innocence and purity instead of beauty and body parts showing all over.

When I will marry I will know that my wife is all mine and not for me to share with other men.

ie the usual "women as livestock" muslim attitude.

 

[Estro Felino]

You assume that men can do something about it.

To me I find it interesting to watch the behavior of men almost universally change around beautiful women.

If you need to run a civilization you need your leaders to think with a clear head. Men have a difficult time with this. Think about Helen of Troy.

It's not about hate, it is about accepting the reality of human nature. Women who are not physically attractive do not have the same opportunities. It is sad really. To get all women to be treated equal is a difficult task.

I see women who are not physically attractive refuse to look directly at me because they have probably been ridiculed their whole life because of their looks. Even from other women. The fear of another look of disapproval because of genetics. Nothing they had any control over. One's physical appearance should not define a person. Unfortunately in our society it does.

oooh. Finally a man that says the truth.
You men discriminate women on the basis of their looks. And I don't blame you, I can understand you.
That's why I want all women to be perfect, and beautiful. I want all of them to take care of their looks, their body, their clothing and their makeup.
Because I want them all to be treated equally by men.

And women exist to seduce you mean. They exist to turn you on. As well as you exist to make them enjoy. Pardon me if I'm too explicit, but it is the truth.
Beauty is a value that needs to be valorized.