the relativity of religion

[flupke]

If I was born in Saudi Arabia among very convinced muslims, I would be a muslim.
If I was born amidst a Hindu family and society without getting any science education, without television or any means to learn about other religions, I would most likely be a Hindu.
...etcetera

The power of the environment and any person's belief are so immense, that the person holds no responsibility for believing the 'wrong' thing.

Which leads me to think that e.g. a 'perfect' christian God should have seen this problem, and should not be condemning people to hell for sticking to the wrong faith. After all, they did not get the same chances as the person growing up in a loving christian family.
This means God is not that perfect after all and provides a contradiction.

Therefore, this proves that a perfect christian god, with the properties attributed to him in the bible (i.e. you should believe in him to get access to heaven), does not exist.

 

[Katzpur]

If I was born in Saudi Arabia among very convinced muslims, I would be a muslim.
If I was born amidst a Hindu family and society without getting any science education, without television or any means to learn about other religions, I would most likely be a Hindu.
...etcetera

The power of the environment and any person's belief are so immense, that the person holds no responsibility for believing the 'wrong' thing.

I agree to a large extent.

Which leads me to think that e.g. a 'perfect' christian God should have seen this problem, and should not be condemning people to hell for sticking to the wrong faith. After all, they did not get the same chances as the person growing up in a loving christian family.
This means God is not that perfect after all and provides a contradiction.

Therefore, this proves that a perfect christian god, with the properties attributed to him in the bible (i.e. you should believe in him to get access to heaven), does not exist.

I disagree. But then people keep reminding me that I'm not a real Christian. But as someone who worships the Christian God and strives to be a follower of Jesus Christ, my own personal beliefs differ substantially from your assessement of "Christian" doctrine.

 

[flupke]

I disagree. But then people keep reminding me that I'm not a real Christian. But as someone who worships the Christian God and strives to be a follower of Jesus Christ, my own personal beliefs differ substantially from your assessement of "Christian" doctrine.

I'm obviously not a christian either, and don't want to pick on this one in particular, but just want to use it as an example.

Care to say as to WHY you disagree ?

 

[dawny0826]

My environment had little to do with my coming to Christ. I rebelled for years against church and Christ until I went to HIM on my own free will. I yearned for Him.

And if I knew of Jesus Christ and made the choice NOT to believe in him...I most certainly WOULD be held accountable for my choice.

God is perfect. And for those of us who love Him...there's no trouble accepting that...no trouble understanding his "properties". They DO Exist to those who believe.

My Perfect God gave me a choice. I can either accept Jesus Christ or not. There's no grey area...there's no middle ground. I do or I don't. It's MY choice. Many Christians weren't raised in a Christian home.

And it's the commission of EVERY Christian to spread the gospel...to witness to others about the Love of Christ, so that they CAN make that decision for themselves. That's the whole concept of the Great Commission which was set forth through Jesus Christ.

If you read the Bible...truly wanting to understand...you'll see that God very much has everything under control. His plan for our salvation is mysterious...but awesome.

And it's through faith in Jesus Christ that we have eternal life.

It's man who contradicts...not God.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm obviously not a christian either, and don't want to pick on this one in particular, but just want to use it as an example.

Care to say as to WHY you disagree ?

Be happy to, but not tonight. I've got to get up early and go to work.

 

[Katzpur]

My environment had little to do with my coming to Christ. I rebelled for years against church and Christ until I went to HIM on my own free will. I yearned for Him.

And if I knew of Jesus Christ and made the choice NOT to believe in him...I most certainly WOULD be held accountable for my choice.

God is perfect. And for those of us who love Him...there's no trouble accepting that...no trouble understanding his "properties". They DO Exist to those who believe.

My Perfect God gave me a choice. I can either accept Jesus Christ or not. There's no grey area...there's no middle ground. I do or I don't. It's MY choice. Many Christians weren't raised in a Christian home.

And it's the commission of EVERY Christian to spread the gospel...to witness to others about the Love of Christ, so that they CAN make that decision for themselves. That's the whole concept of the Great Commission which was set forth through Jesus Christ.

If you read the Bible...truly wanting to understand...you'll see that God very much has everything under control. His plan for our salvation is mysterious...but awesome.

And it's through faith in Jesus Christ that we have eternal life.

It's man who contradicts...not God.

I'm sure that everything you've said about your own spiritual journey is entirely accurate, dawny, but do you honestly think that if you had been born and raised in Iraq, you'd be a Christian right now?

 

[flupke]

My environment had little to do with my coming to Christ. I rebelled for years against church and Christ until I went to HIM on my own free will. I yearned for Him.

And if I knew of Jesus Christ and made the choice NOT to believe in him...I most certainly WOULD be held accountable for my choice.

You were lucky to be one of those growing up in an environment where they could see some alternatives and have some choice. A lot of people don't have this choice. Your personal statement may be valid to you, but it is besides the point of this thread. everywhere in the world, there are geographic 'clusters' of religion.

If somebody had never had the chance to even hear about the bible, should that person be accountable for not believing in the christian god ?
Only a mean god could punish somebody for that. "Mean" is not a hallmark of perfection.

And it's the commission of EVERY Christian to spread the gospel...to witness to others about the Love of Christ, so that they CAN make that decision for themselves. That's the whole concept of the Great Commission which was set forth through Jesus Christ.

So the non-christians who never had heard about the bible are being condemned to hell because the christians did not spread the gospel fast enough ?
How mean of God to put the blame on his followers...

 

[dawny0826]

I'm sure that everything you've said about your own spiritual journey is entirely accurate, dawny, but do you honestly think that if you had been born and raised in Iraq, you'd be a Christian right now?

I see your point there...

But...I do believe that if you KNOW of Christ...you are accountable for the choice you make. That's why I think witnessing to others and missions is so important.

 

[Katzpur]

I see your point there...

But...I do believe that if you KNOW of Christ...you are accountable for the choice you make. That's why I think witnessing to others and missions is so important.

I'll go along with that.

 

[dawny0826]

You were lucky to be one of those growing up in an environment where they could see some alternatives and have some choice. A lot of people don't have this choice. Your personal statement may be valid to you, but it is besides the point of this thread. everywhere in the world, there are geographic 'clusters' of religion.

If somebody had never had the chance to even hear about the bible, should that person be accountable for not believing in the christian god ?
Only a mean god could punish somebody for that. "Mean" is not a hallmark of perfection.



So the non-christians who never had heard about the bible are being condemned to hell because the christians did not spread the gospel fast enough ?
How mean of God to put the blame on his followers...

That's not what I said. I said those who KNOW of Christ...are held accountable.

I don't believe that an individual who hasn't heard the gospel will be condemned for their non belief of something they were never given the opportunity to believe in...that's how I feel.

And that's why I reiterate the importance of those who are in Christ...to let their lights shine...

I think Katzpur does a fine job of just that.

 

[flupke]

That's not what I said. I said those who KNOW of Christ...are held accountable.

I don't believe that an individual who hasn't heard the gospel will be condemned for their non belief of something they were never given the opportunity to believe in...that's how I feel.

Do believe it's like that because you want your god to be perfect, or do you actually know that's what the bible says ?

Other christians told me a different story...

 

[dawny0826]

Do believe it's like that because you want your god to be perfect, or do you actually know that's what the bible says ?

Other christians told me a different story...

I don't have to WANT my God to be perfect...He IS.

The Bible states that God is love, God is compassion. So, yes, I believe that God can have compassion against those who have never been exposed to his word. This is my opinion...this is how I feel...

And yes, I'm sure other Christians did tell you a different story...we interpret things differently...(insert melodramatic sigh )

 

[flupke]

I don't have to WANT my God to be perfect...He IS.

The Bible states that God is love, God is compassion. So, yes, I believe that God can have compassion against those who have never been exposed to his word. This is my opinion...this is how I feel...

And yes, I'm sure other Christians did tell you a different story...we interpret things differently...(insert melodramatic sigh )

A pitty when different christians give different 'truths' about the bible. But how you feel is not necessarily the 'truth', and I keep it up to you to give me a quote from the bible that makes the statement.

 

[dawny0826]

A pitty when different christians give different 'truths' about the bible. But how you feel is not necessarily the 'truth', and I keep it up to you to give me a quote from the bible that makes the statement.

I told you...that's my opinion...

I don't claim to be correct...I claim to FEEL that way...

And I stand firm that...as Christians...we are to spread the gospel to others...so that others will seek Christ as well. I'd be more than happy to provide you with scripture on that.

Why do you debate on a God that you don't even believe? Just out of curiousity?

 

[Master Vigil]

Many christians believe that if someone never hears of god, and subsequently can't be christian, will not go to hell. But if they hear of god and jesus, but choose not to, will go to hell. So my question is...

Why go out to convert? If you do, and the majority of people do not accept your conversion, you have in effect sent many people to hell. So in effect, "witnessing" is a losing battle.

 

[dawny0826]

Many christians believe that if someone never hears of god, and subsequently can't be christian, will not go to hell. But if they hear of god and jesus, but choose not to, will go to hell. So my question is...

Why go out to convert? If you do, and the majority of people do not accept your conversion, you have in effect sent many people to hell. So in effect, "witnessing" is a losing battle.

If an individual makes a personal decision NOT to accept Christ...that blood isn't on MY hands at all...it's a personal choice...they chose to not embrace Christ.

Further...Biblically...Christ does not return until ALL have heard the gospel...

 

[Halcyon]

I see your point there...

But...I do believe that if you KNOW of Christ...you are accountable for the choice you make. That's why I think witnessing to others and missions is so important.

All Muslims know of Christ Dawny, they consider him a prophet. If you had been brought up your whole life being taught that Jesus was a prophet, not the Messiah who would you believe, you're parents, friends and community or the visiting missionaries?

If I was born in Saudi Arabia among very convinced muslims, I would be a muslim.
If I was born amidst a Hindu family and society without getting any science education, without television or any means to learn about other religions, I would most likely be a Hindu.
...etcetera

The power of the environment and any person's belief are so immense, that the person holds no responsibility for believing the 'wrong' thing.

See, i was brought up atheist, surrounded by atheist friends - my whole extended family is atheist. I never went to church, was never taught the bible or any other scripture. I worked out for myself that Santa Claus and God did not exist at the age of 4. I was good at science throughout my schooling, i went to university and have an upper second class degree in Zoology.

Yet, despite all this i see the divine wherever i look. Granted i don't subscribe to the view of God held by (i think) any other belief system, but i do believe in a form of God.

Therefore, i disagree with your statement. Upbringing does not necessarily result in a child believing the same as the parents.

 

[Master Vigil]

If an individual makes a personal decision NOT to accept Christ...that blood isn't on MY hands at all...it's a personal choice...they chose to not embrace Christ.

Further...Biblically...Christ does not return until ALL have heard the gospel...

I know you don't want to think the "blood is on your hands", but it is your fault they had to choose. In effect, your "witnessing" damned them. If you had left them alone, they would have been perfectly ok.

 

[Valjean]

I told you...that's my opinion...

I don't claim to be correct...I claim to FEEL that way...

What place do feelings have in a logical discussion? An individual's feelings have no effect on reality/truth, apart from obscuring it.

 

[Quiddity]

If I was born in Saudi Arabia among very convinced muslims, I would be a muslim.
If I was born amidst a Hindu family and society without getting any science education, without television or any means to learn about other religions, I would most likely be a Hindu.
...etcetera

The power of the environment and any person's belief are so immense, that the person holds no responsibility for believing the 'wrong' thing.

I would disagree that you would no responsibility. I would certainly agree that the responsibility level isn't as high as a person who is exposed to truth.

Which leads me to think that e.g. a 'perfect' christian God should have seen this problem, and should not be condemning people to hell for sticking to the wrong faith.

My Church certainly doesn't teach to condemn people to hell.

After all, they did not get the same chances as the person growing up in a loving christian family.

Then do one you can with what you have. That's all you can do.

This means God is not that perfect after all and provides a contradiction.

Therefore, this proves that a perfect christian god, with the properties attributed to him in the bible (i.e. you should believe in him to get access to heaven), does not exist.

To be clear, attributes of God are attached by the reader.
It's not a hit or miss type of thing flupke. It's more of a "your getting hotter" type of thing. And you are judged accordingly.