The Right Reason and Wrong Reason to Leave/Enter Belief System

[migueldarican]

I'm not even sure if this is much of a debate. Most people claim they've arrived at their religious beliefs or lack of beliefs for the right reason, and it'll probably turn out that those reasons are the same as mine.

The Right Reason - Examining the actual beliefs. What do the "sacred" texts say? What are commandments if any? If you've examined the actual belief system, close enough to say, "I'm a [place belief here]", you're good to go.

The Wrong Reason - What followers of your examined belief system say about it. How they act. Do they act contrary to what they say they are? Are they a bad [place belief here]? You end up leaving a belief system because hypocrisy, and join another belief system because there's a lot of cool people there.

Now, don't get me wrong: the second reason there, can definitely be an influence. Especially when some followers of a given belief are actually leaders within that belief system. You shouldn't stop being a Christian, because there are bad Christians. Or become an atheist because a lot of atheists are just so cool, yeah. No!

Like I said, most people want to say they did it for the right reason. Everyone wants to say they're the logical one. Believe it or not, theists will tell you that believing in God is more logical than not believing. Seriously, it's like watching the soup commercials about MSG. Remember? Campbells and Progresso both having commercials that said, "We don't have MSG, they do." Okay, either one of you or both of you is lying, and there's an easy way to tell. We're not talking about opinion stuff here, like taste or whether or not it's a "wholesome" diet. It's an ingredient. But I'm off in left field now... back on topic.

Too often I see people lose faith in a religion because they were treated badly. Or leaders in their religion acting contrary to their religion. So they leave. But if they leave for the wrong reason, chances are they'll return for the wrong reasons as well.

I read an article by a Christian who said he tried on atheism for a while until he saw what popular atheists were saying, and disagreed so he went back. No! You're doing it wrong!

If you see Christians behaving badly, then you be a good Christian. If an atheist is being an idiot, then you be an atheist who is not an idiot.

 

[Laika]

I'm not even sure if this is much of a debate. Most people claim they've arrived at their religious beliefs or lack of beliefs for the right reason, and it'll probably turn out that those reasons are the same as mine.

The Right Reason - Examining the actual beliefs. What do the "sacred" texts say? What are commandments if any? If you've examined the actual belief system, close enough to say, "I'm a [place belief here]", you're good to go.

The Wrong Reason - What followers of your examined belief system say about it. How they act. Do they act contrary to what they say they are? Are they a bad [place belief here]? You end up leaving a belief system because hypocrisy, and join another belief system because there's a lot of cool people there.

Now, don't get me wrong: the second reason there, can definitely be an influence. Especially when some followers of a given belief are actually leaders within that belief system. You shouldn't stop being a Christian, because there are bad Christians. Or become an atheist because a lot of atheists are just so cool, yeah. No!

Like I said, most people want to say they did it for the right reason. Everyone wants to say they're the logical one. Believe it or not, theists will tell you that believing in God is more logical than not believing. Seriously, it's like watching the soup commercials about MSG. Remember? Campbells and Progresso both having commercials that said, "We don't have MSG, they do." Okay, either one of you or both of you is lying, and there's an easy way to tell. We're not talking about opinion stuff here, like taste or whether or not it's a "wholesome" diet. It's an ingredient. But I'm off in left field now... back on topic.

Too often I see people lose faith in a religion because they were treated badly. Or leaders in their religion acting contrary to their religion. So they leave. But if they leave for the wrong reason, chances are they'll return for the wrong reasons as well.

I read an article by a Christian who said he tried on atheism for a while until he saw what popular atheists were saying, and disagreed so he went back. No! You're doing it wrong!

If you see Christians behaving badly, then you be a good Christian. If an atheist is being an idiot, then you be an atheist who is not an idiot.

This is very true. I am a Communist (more or less) and have had a long battle over whether it is for the "right" or "wrong" reasons. I became a communist sympathizer for the wrong reasons; I was an Atheist because I thought science had all the answers and felt superior to people of religious belief because I thought it was 'irrational', nor was i really willing to engage with people of different beliefs for this reason. This then fed into the idea that people and society could be understood scientifically and was predictable.

I studied economics at uni and found myself irreconcilably opposed to the course on moral grounds (as it is just too amoral). I developed a crush on my best friend and found out I was bi but didn't come out until much later. my parents were fairly conservative (and are very anxious if not neurotic people) and so that became a problem that I've had to navigate over time. I was in a catch-22 situation where if I left uni I'd lose my touch with my 'friends' (one in particular) but if I stayed I was going to do a course I didn't like and end up with a career path I didn't want. it was only when I started having mental problems that I called it quits and left. I felt vulnerable, confused and really angry with the world. I needed a sense of control when facing how uncertain my future was so I became a communist and there is about two years when I was a complete a**hole. I swallowed the contents of a couple of books unthinkingly because I simply needed answers. I had the strange sense of "believing without believing" because I wanted to feel better about myself and had considerable dissonance over it, but I only realized this in retrospect.

It was only once I started to recognize that was as much a mental problems over my sexuality, how often it reflected the kind of thought patterns associated with depression and anxiety that I questioned my own beliefs and faced up to the history of communism; which, for the lack of a better word, is "evil". The past three years I've gone through a long process of questioning my beliefs and feeling guilty about them telling myself I should give them up. I haven't as they just seem to "fit" with who I am, the kind of person I would like to be and have helped me come to terms with being bi and therefore not being "normal". intellectually, the ideas are complex and many-sided and can be used for good and bad reasons, rather than one either way. I don't think it was a mistake overall, but it was a really difficult period to go through and I had some really bad reasons for believing it. wanting to find some rational grounds to believe the best in people and that you can better yourself is not the worst thing you can do with your life. Whilst I still have a long way to go, I recognize my bias, appreciate both the limitations and the complexity of the ideas and have nearly sorted out my own personal problems. maturity is hard, but it is very rewarding to get to know oneself as a person.

 

[migueldarican]

This is very true. I am a Communist (more or less) and have had a long battle over whether it is for the "right" or "wrong" reasons. I became a communist sympathizer for the wrong reasons; I was an Atheist because I thought science had all the answers and felt superior to people of religious belief because I thought it was 'irrational', nor was i really willing to engage with people of different beliefs for this reason. This then fed into the idea that people and society could be understood scientifically and was predictable.

I studied economics at uni and found myself irreconcilably opposed to the course on moral grounds (as it is just too amoral). I developed a crush on my best friend and found out I was bi but didn't come out until much later. my parents were fairly conservative (and are very anxious if not neurotic people) and so that became a problem that I've had to navigate over time. I was in a catch-22 situation where if I left uni I'd lose my touch with my 'friends' (one in particular) but if I stayed I was going to do a course I didn't like and end up with a career path I didn't want. it was only when I started having mental problems that I called it quits and left. I felt vulnerable, confused and really angry with the world. I needed a sense of control when facing how uncertain my future was so I became a communist and there is about two years when I was a complete a**hole. I swallowed the contents of a couple of books unthinkingly because I simply needed answers. I had the strange sense of "believing without believing" because I wanted to feel better about myself and had considerable dissonance over it, but I only realized this in retrospect.

It was only once I started to recognize that was as much a mental problems over my sexuality, how often it reflected the kind of thought patterns associated with depression and anxiety that I questioned my own beliefs and faced up to the history of communism; which, for the lack of a better word, is "evil". The past three years I've gone through a long process of questioning my beliefs and feeling guilty about them telling myself I should give them up. I haven't as they just seem to "fit" with who I am, the kind of person I would like to be and have helped me come to terms with being bi and therefore not being "normal". intellectually, the ideas are complex and many-sided and can be used for good and bad reasons, rather than one either way. I don't think it was a mistake overall, but it was a really difficult period to go through and I had some really bad reasons for believing it. wanting to find some rational grounds to believe the best in people and that you can better yourself is not the worst thing you can do with your life. Whilst I still have a long way to go, I recognize my bias, appreciate both the limitations and the complexity of the ideas and have nearly sorted out my own personal problems. maturity is hard, but it is very rewarding to get to know oneself as a person.

You know I didn't used to like reading personal bios on forums before. It's something now however that really concerns me. Because I want people to think better and question their beliefs. I like your bio. I don't know much about communism, only that I used to demonize it when I was a fundy Christian, not knowing fully what it's about. I wish I was better at economics. I don't want to call myself a liberal or conservative without fully understanding all that stuff. I look forward to reading what you have to say about that subject on these forums.

 

[Laika]

You know I didn't used to like reading personal bios on forums before. It's something now however that really concerns me. Because I want people to think better and question their beliefs. I like your bio.

thanks. it's kind of weird but as beliefs can be so personal, giving a bit of personal info mean it can make more sense, even though people are complete strangers on opposite ends of the internet. As different as peoples beliefs can be, it helps make it relate-able.

I don't know much about communism, only that I used to demonize it when I was a fundy Christian, not knowing fully what it's about. I wish I was better at economics.

no probs. it is really easy... All someone has to do is say the two words "human nature" and I'll end up spending the next few hours untangling major philosophical, theological, scientific and political problems. Alot of our "common sense" notions are heavily value laden with liberal and judeao-christian ideas and communism often heads in a completely different direction.

I don't want to call myself a liberal or conservative without fully understanding all that stuff. I look forward to reading what you have to say about that subject on these forums.

good decision.

 

[Breathe]

IMO when it comes to joining or not joining a religion, after much deliberation on this subject myself, I think it eventually boils down to this:

Joining:​

The right reason: I agree with its teachings.
The wrong reason: Anything else.

Leaving: ​

The right reason: I don't agree with its teachings.
The wrong reason: Anything else.

Not joining (or, not joining as an active adherent within the religious community):​

The best reason: I don't agree with its teachings.
The wrong reason: Anything else.
Somewhat acceptable:

1. The religion does not accept converts
2. I would feel ostracised in the religion
   
3. I hold heterodox beliefs and feel uncomfortable with people knowing that about me

Not joining as an active adherent of the community:​

1. I'm unable to get to a place of worship
2. I hold heterodox beliefs and feel uncomfortable with people knowing these heterodox beliefs about me in case I have to discuss them
3. I hold (non-religious) views that run contrary to the majority of the community (for example, it'd be hard for someone who opposes gay relationships or is an avid pro-lifer to to go to a UU church)
   
4. I fear I would be ostracised because I do not speak the language or culture of the religious community (and I can't put in the time to learn it right now)
   
5. I don't like people

After all, people are diverse. There are nice and nasty people. If the teachings fit, screw what others think or do.

 

[xkatz]

A right reason to join a religion: I believe it to be true, after critically examining it.
A wrong reason to join (that is very prevalent in Western societies): Its not Christian; its very 'exotic' and has nice aesthetics.

 

[Breathe]

A right reason to join a religion: I believe it to be true, after critically examining it.
A wrong reason to join (that is very prevalent in Western societies): Its not Christian; its very 'exotic' and has nice aesthetics.

You forgot, "it's cool". >_>

 

[Doug Shaver]

Okay, either one of you or both of you is lying, and there's an easy way to tell. We're not talking about opinion stuff here . . . .

I get it that you were talking about soup commercials, not religious apologetics. However, I feel compelled to note that on the issues most people in this forum like to debate, the truth-or-lie dichotomy is a false one. For a false statement to be a lie, the person making the statement has to know it isn't true. When anyone tells me something that I don't believe, I always assume, absent clear and present evidence to the contrary, that they're just mistaken.

 

[migueldarican]

I get it that you were talking about soup commercials, not religious apologetics. However, I feel compelled to note that on the issues most people in this forum like to debate, the truth-or-lie dichotomy is a false one. For a false statement to be a lie, the person making the statement has to know it isn't true. When anyone tells me something that I don't believe, I always assume, absent clear and present evidence to the contrary, that they're just mistaken.

I get that. And really, for the most part, I assume the best of people when it comes to things like this. I'm new here, but you'll find that I'm optimistic to a fault. This is simply more of my opinion, an initial reaction of mine, and probably has little place in a debate. At very least, I should indicate that. Sorry.