The Rise of Paganism

[beenherebeforeagain]

I have to say I have yet to actually meet or speak with anyone who has held this viewpoint. In fact, every time my religion has come up, I've never had any bad experiences with it in spite of all the "coming out of the broom closet" horror stories that circulate around the internet.

My experience has been that most Christians equate paganism of whatever kind with worship of the Devil (Black Mass, child sacrifice, pedophilia, etc., etc., etc.--which of course isn't true even of Satanists), and that certainly is how the Catholic and Protestant Churches viewed (and often, still view) the beliefs and practices of any natives and/or non-Christians when Europeans started colonizing the rest of the world.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

The main point of my argument was that you said death matches in the Collosieum were in ancient Europe. That's what actually caught my eye first. I didn't remember any colliseum's being built in Europe until after Roman occupation.

Secondly, it seemed that you were implying that "pagan" european religions were the direct cause of the atrocities, rather than being a result of the conditions that were present. It is my personal view, albieit an admittedly uninformed one, that the strictly nature based "religions" of aincient Europe were not the cause of these atrocities.

Italy--the place where the Romans were from--is in Europe. The Romans had arenas in every major city for centuries before Christianity arrived. Rome remained officially pagan until Constantine in the 300s, while Rome occupied much of Spain, France, the British Isles and the Alps, as well as the area around the Black Sea, well before Christianity was born.

 

[Poeticus]

I have to say I have yet to actually meet or speak with anyone who has held this viewpoint. In fact, every time my religion has come up, I've never had any bad experiences with it in spite of all the "coming out of the broom closet" horror stories that circulate around the internet.

My experience has been that most Christians equate paganism of whatever kind with worship of the Devil (Black Mass, child sacrifice, pedophilia, etc., etc., etc.--which of course isn't true even of Satanists), and that certainly is how the Catholic and Protestant Churches viewed (and often, still view) the beliefs and practices of any natives and/or non-Christians when Europeans started colonizing the rest of the world.

Namaste to the both of you.

Yeah, what BeenHereBeforeAgain said.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

What made paganism so attractive to overcome hundreds of years of persecution to the point of near extermination to return to the extent it has in the last 60 years?

Toleration under the law is probably the biggest change. When England repealed the Witch laws, Gardner felt confident enough to go public. A similar thing happened in Russia and the former Soviet Bloc when communism fell and governments ceased to actively persecute believers. In America, various pushes for respect for civil liberties and civil rights contributed to people feeling more comfortable declaring themselves non-Christian and pursuing other religions.

 

[Poeticus]

Toleration under the law is probably the biggest change. When England repealed the Witch laws, Gardner felt confident enough to go public. A similar thing happened in Russia and the former Soviet Bloc when communism fell and governments ceased to actively persecute believers. In America, various pushes for respect for civil liberties and civil rights contributed to people feeling more comfortable declaring themselves non-Christian and pursuing other religions.

In my opinion, I believe it has also something to do with identifying with one's heritage. Many Pagans (and when I say Pagan I mean Euro-Paganism) believe that Christianity was a foreign faith forcefully put upon them. They desired to return to the faith of their forefathers. In the process, they felt as if they were liberated.

 

[Riverwolf]

In my opinion, I believe it has also something to do with identifying with one's heritage. Many Pagans (and when I say Pagan I mean Euro-Paganism) believe that Christianity was a foreign faith forcefully put upon them. They desired to return to the faith of their forefathers. In the process, they felt as if they were liberated.

While that's very often the case, I should also point out that in my case, I also recognize that "technically" speaking, the religions we know about from pre-Christian Europe were also foreign, having its origins.... somewhere. ^_^ It's still debated exactly where the Proto-Into-Europeans actually came from.

Problem is, well... we know absolutely NOTHING about the religions practiced before the Indo-European religions showed up, so... Indo-European it is!

 

[Poeticus]

While that's very often the case, I should also point out that in my case, I also recognize that "technically" speaking, the religions we know about from pre-Christian Europe were also foreign, having its origins.... somewhere. ^_^ It's still debated exactly where the Proto-Into-Europeans actually came from.

Problem is, well... we know absolutely NOTHING about the religions practiced before the Indo-European religions showed up, so... Indo-European it is!

Hey, brah. Indo-European FTW. Better than you know what, eh?

EDIT: But, wait a second, aren't you a descendant from an Indo-European tribe? So, wouldn't you too be foreign?! Like me? Western Kshatrapas/Huna lineage would make me Indian (Gujarati) only from 100-200AD...I don't know where my ancestors were before that, yooo.

 

[Riverwolf]

Hey, brah. Indo-European FTW. Better than you know what, eh?

EDIT: But, wait a second, aren't you a descendant from an Indo-European tribe? So, wouldn't you too be foreign?! Like me? Western Kshatrapas/Huna lineage would make me Indian (Gujarati) only from 100-200AD...I don't know where my ancestors were before that, yooo.

The people of Europe haven't changed much over the millenia. The people practicing the Indo-European religions and speaking the Indo-European languages were by and large the exact same people who practiced and spoke the pre-Indo-European ones. It was primarily cultural influence, not migration, that spread the Indo-European ways.

 

[Ashoka]

Is this a form of pantheism? Also are you a Shaiva Hindu?

Well, more panentheism than anything. God is imminent and transcendent.

Shaiva for now, dabbling in Shaktism (Worship of the Goddess) but might just stay in Shaivism because it's most comfortable to me.

 

[Poeticus]

The people of Europe haven't changed much over the millenia. The people practicing the Indo-European religions and speaking the Indo-European languages were by and large the exact same people who practiced and spoke the pre-Indo-European ones. It was primarily cultural influence, not migration, that spread the Indo-European ways.

I think some migration happened. But, I doubt when some of those colonial historians say that "massive invasions" happened. For example, the one attributed to the downfall of the Indus Valley. It would be like ShakaZulu trying to conquer modern day New York City with wooden spears.

 

[Riverwolf]

I think some migration happened. But, I doubt when some of those colonial historians say that "massive invasions" happened. For example, the one attributed to the downfall of the Indus Valley. It would be like ShakaZulu trying to conquer modern day New York City with wooden spears.

Indeed. ^_^

Even when Britain was primarily Celtic, it was invaded by Rome, the Anglo-Saxons, and the Normans. Yet even after all these cultures influenced their own culture and language, genetically, they're as Briton as they've ever been.

Heck, I've heard that they found a several-thousand year old skeleton in Britain somewhere, and when they ran a genetic trace on it, they found one of the skeleton's descendents was a schoolteacher who lived in a nearby town.

 

[Poeticus]

Yet even after all these cultures influenced their own culture and language, genetically, they're as Briton as they've ever been.

Tell me about it, bro. I wish I could persuade many Indians in the same way. Genetically, India hasn't had a large and massive migration of outside peoples in the last 10,000 years.

Heck, I've heard that they found a several-thousand year old skeleton in Britain somewhere, and when they ran a genetic trace on it, they found one of the skeleton's descendents was a schoolteacher who lived in a nearby town.

And, I bet she looked as Briton as they come, hardly distinguishable from her native neighbor.

 

[Riverwolf]

Tell me about it, bro. I wish I could persuade many Indians in the same way. Genetically, India hasn't had a large and massive migration of outside peoples in the last 10,000 years.

Oh, Gods, I remember THAT debate... oh, the headaches...

And, I bet she looked as Briton as they come, hardly distinguishable from her native neighbor.

I don't think there were any pictures, but almost certainly.

 

[Poeticus]

Oh, Gods, I remember THAT debate... oh, the headaches...

I love and admire how you said "Gods", with an "s", and thank you for capitalizing it as well. One time I capitalized "Gods" and got a huge backlash from a member complaining that the "G" has to be in lowercase ("g" = "gods").

I wanted to reply but other members jumped in and said that that is not the case, and so I didn't post any more replies because they already answered for me hehe.

Capitalized "God" shouldn't be monopolized by Abrahamics. And, they shouldn't get into a jiffy if a pagan like me were to pluralize it into "Gods". Sheesh, the horror!

 

[llwyd blaidd]

So one of the reasons might be ancestry. A pagan faith involving a return to beliefs that Irish Celtics or Anglo-Saxon or Norse. I can completely understand this reasoning but Celtic and Germanic cultures had an oral tradition. They unfortunately they did not leave us with anything written. We have some archeology but it is often subject to interpretations. What we know is from Roman, Greek and Christian writers. These sources are still important but you have to do work to interpret them from the pagan reference and not the authors. Despite that I agree that ancestry seems important to pagan theology.

 

[Riverwolf]

So one of the reasons might be ancestry. A pagan faith involving a return to beliefs that Irish Celtics or Anglo-Saxon or Norse. I can completely understand this reasoning but Celtic and Germanic cultures had an oral tradition. They unfortunately they did not leave us with anything written. We have some archeology but it is often subject to interpretations. What we know is from Roman, Greek and Christian writers. These sources are still important but you have to do work to interpret them from the pagan reference and not the authors. Despite that I agree that ancestry seems important to pagan theology.

It's actually thought that many of the songs in the Poetic Edda were composed by Heathens. But that's still VERY late in the game.

 

[llwyd blaidd]

It's actually thought that many of the songs in the Poetic Edda were composed by Heathens. But that's still VERY late in the game.

The song were from the oral stories told and retold in Iceland but they were written down by someone who was Christian. This does not make them incorrect but rather a reminder that there could have been Christian interpretations in the writing. But even with that we are lucky to have anything and the people who preserved the pagan Irish and Norse literature were at least interested in it and from what we know tried to preserve it as well as possible. Some clearly were reworded to show how primitive pagan were compared to Christians but even here we can learn if we look at the writings from a pagan viewpoint and change words like demonic and Satan which were clearly Christian interpretations.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

From what I read there was a shift in the 1950s from an intellectual interest in pagan myths to a serious form of religion.

That's part of the story, I believe. Certainly, Kenneth Grahame, C. S. Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, Percy Shelley, etc., were not (neo)pagans, yet like many other authors their writings featured multiple motifs, characters, entities, and more borrowed from Greco-Roman authors. For those like Lewis and Tolkien, we find serious scholarship alongside fiction.

However, the 19th century was also marked by the production of grimoires, "secret" orders, and the development of magic frameworks (e.g., mappings from macroscale to microscale, incorporation of kabbalah, among other things) as well as a lengthy tradition (going back before the 19th century) of at least borderline religious druidic revivals.

I have no doubt that people before this time had interest and that some people seriously saw themselves as pagan but by the 1950 there was clearly an change in the number of people becoming pagan and a growing diversity of pagan faiths.

I wouldn't use that date, but rather the one you use below at the earliest, as by the 50s and early 60s the new religion(s) were pretty much all wiccan, and the druidic revival has a very long history (see e.g., Hutton's Blood and Mistletoe: The History of the Druids in Britain) that the 1950s had no real effect on.

By the 1960s variations of wicca were developing as well as people practicing Celtic/Druidism, Germanic/Heathenry/Asatru, Greek, Roman, and Egyptian paganism.

Variations of Wicca, yes. Same with Druidism. However, I'm not so sure about Asatru and the others. (Neo)gnosticisms, Norse paganisms, even witches (i.e., the various groups of people who did not identify themselves as wiccans but did identify themselves as witches) were, I believe, not until the 60s at least. I could be wrong as I'm going off of memory here so I'll have to check up on this one.

What happened to cause this change?

That will require another post.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

And, I bet she looked as Briton as they come, hardly distinguishable from her native neighbor.

As I recall, it was a man, not a woman, they identified as being a direct descendant.

 

[Poeticus]

As I recall, it was a man, not a woman, they identified as being a direct descendant.

Thank you for the clarification.