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The role of religion in the state: theocracy, secularism or state atheism?

Which of the following best describes your view?

  • The state should be religious and enforce this religion on its citizens

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The state should be religious and allow each individual freedom of religion

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • The state should be neutral regards religion but actively counter intolerant or extremist views

    Votes: 8 29.6%
  • The state should be neutral regards religion and allow each person freedom of religion

    Votes: 9 33.3%
  • The state should be irreligious and enforce this view on its people

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The state should be irreligious and allow each citizen freedom of religion

    Votes: 6 22.2%
  • Other

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • Undecided/don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    27

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The poll is intended to see how people approach the relationship between religion and the state. The responses are deliberately vague and open so as not to prejudice each view or stigmatise them by association with particular religions, ideologies or governments.

The first two options say that the state should be religious, but differ on whether this is binding on the population, representing a "theocratic" view. So for example if someone said that the US should be a Christian nation and run according to biblical laws, that would be an example. You can use this to refer to any religion of your choice btw. ;)

The third and fourth represent secular views that the state should be neutral. However, the third makes a distinction to restrict freedom of religion when religion (or irreligious/anti-religious) beliefs are extreme and intolerant. Secularism is pretty familiar such as in the USA or France, with a separation of church and state and individual freedom of religion but with different interpretations on how far this should go,

The fifth and sixth describe a state that is irreligious, broadly referred to as "state atheist" (it's deliberately vague through but countries like China and the USSR are more extreme members of this category). again, I have left degrees for whether this is binding on the population.

I'm expecting most people will opt for the third or fourth option as secularism is a relatively settled and Uncontroversial view. (I may eat those words though as RF could go ahead and surprise me :D).Though what people decide on how far a state is religious, neutral or irreligious will be interesting and perhaps quite diverse. So a lot of room for different opinion. :)

Voted for option 6. The state should be irreligious but allow each person freedom of religion. Claiming the state is neutral in terms of religion is a tad bizarre as it is impossible to entirely separate religion and politics in practical terms, even if the law says otherwise. "Morality" plays a crucial role in how we make political decisions (and so should science) and so is inescapably part of political life. It should however be irreligious in so far as it is backed up by reason, evidence and scientific argument- not scripture or individual myths,superstitions and traditions- simply on the grounds of rationality. To an extent you need an irreligious state to have an effective democracy as in order for everyone to have some political power people have to make decisions based on what they anticipate their consequences will be, not simply putting faith in their good intentions. You need an enlightened populace to exercise power or else they become a danger to their own liberties. Religion is not necessary wrong- but I'd prefer independent confirmation of the validity of religious ideas rather than taking it on faith. Religion can also be a vehicle for authoritarianism by insisting the only one person or group has the answers, but at the same time- state atheism has a long history of abuses so individual religious freedoms have to be protected.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I voted for the 4th ("The state should be neutral regards religion and allow each person freedom of religion"), but I was tempted to vote for the 3rd because of the issues of "hate speech" and verbal threats to do harm.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I chose the third option: "The state should be neutral regards religion but actively counter intolerant or extremist views"
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I'm sad to see that the option I voted for is not the most popular.

Sad that people care nothing for human rights.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I chose the third option: "The state should be neutral regards religion but actively counter intolerant or extremist views"
I would have been tempted to vote for this if there was a way to determine what is intolerant or extremist. I think allowing and protecting the freedom of religion for each person automatically takes care of cases where an intolerant view tries to force a religion on another.
 
I went for number 3.

I'm with Popper that unlimited tolerance leads to the death of tolerance.

As a rough guide, there is no moral obligation to allow certain rights to people who seek to remove such rights from other people. For example, it is reciprocal and fair to limit the freedom of religion for those who use such a privilege to advocate for removing freedom of religion from others.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
The poll is intended to see how people approach the relationship between religion and the state. The responses are deliberately vague and open so as not to prejudice each view or stigmatise them by association with particular religions, ideologies or governments.

The first two options say that the state should be religious, but differ on whether this is binding on the population, representing a "theocratic" view. So for example if someone said that the US should be a Christian nation and run according to biblical laws, that would be an example. You can use this to refer to any religion of your choice btw. ;)

The third and fourth represent secular views that the state should be neutral. However, the third makes a distinction to restrict freedom of religion when religion (or irreligious/anti-religious) beliefs are extreme and intolerant. Secularism is pretty familiar such as in the USA or France, with a separation of church and state and individual freedom of religion but with different interpretations on how far this should go,

The fifth and sixth describe a state that is irreligious, broadly referred to as "state atheist" (it's deliberately vague through but countries like China and the USSR are more extreme members of this category). again, I have left degrees for whether this is binding on the population.

I'm expecting most people will opt for the third or fourth option as secularism is a relatively settled and Uncontroversial view. (I may eat those words though as RF could go ahead and surprise me :D).Though what people decide on how far a state is religious, neutral or irreligious will be interesting and perhaps quite diverse. So a lot of room for different opinion. :)

Voted for option 6. The state should be irreligious but allow each person freedom of religion. Claiming the state is neutral in terms of religion is a tad bizarre as it is impossible to entirely separate religion and politics in practical terms, even if the law says otherwise. "Morality" plays a crucial role in how we make political decisions (and so should science) and so is inescapably part of political life. It should however be irreligious in so far as it is backed up by reason, evidence and scientific argument- not scripture or individual myths,superstitions and traditions- simply on the grounds of rationality. To an extent you need an irreligious state to have an effective democracy as in order for everyone to have some political power people have to make decisions based on what they anticipate their consequences will be, not simply putting faith in their good intentions. You need an enlightened populace to exercise power or else they become a danger to their own liberties. Religion is not necessary wrong- but I'd prefer independent confirmation of the validity of religious ideas rather than taking it on faith. Religion can also be a vehicle for authoritarianism by insisting the only one person or group has the answers, but at the same time- state atheism has a long history of abuses so individual religious freedoms have to be protected.

No easy answer, which makes it a good question!

I'd probably squeeze somewhere between 2 and 3

I agree with you that real neutrality is impossible. But a state based on irreligion/ atheism is an unrepresentative, runs counter to the vast majority of any free thinking population. And the concept of a state being atheist 'but not imposing' this ideology in any way is also unrealistic.

So I'd say the least worst option is; a state founded on and following it's people's religious values, with a strict focus on separation of church and state, i.e. keeping politician's hands off those religious values
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Not sure I understand the difference between 'irreligious' and 'neutral'. 'Neutral' sounds friendlier so I voted 'The state should be neutral regards religion and allow each person freedom of religion'.

The government should only be involved when some civil law is broken.
 
Last edited:

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I think the state should focus on demonstrable physical realities and have let the citizens believe and do what they wish, only intervening in criminal activity or causes of such.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I voted for the 4th ("The state should be neutral regards religion and allow each person freedom of religion"), but I was tempted to vote for the 3rd because of the issues of "hate speech" and verbal threats to do harm.

I think it was President Adams who thought the U S constitution would only work if the country was populated with Christians.
Since ' freedom of religion ' is a broad term, what would the religious people of Jeremiah 32:34-35; 2 Chronicles 28:3 think of freedom of religion since as part of their religion they burnt their children to death for their god.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I think the state should focus on demonstrable physical realities and have let the citizens believe and do what they wish, only intervening in criminal activity or causes of such.

What if the state decided that celebrating Christmas was a criminal activity by fining people or jailing people who openly celebrated it ?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I think it was President Adams who thought the U S constitution would only work if the country was populated with Christians.
Since ' freedom of religion ' is a broad term, what would the religious people of Jeremiah 32:34-35; 2 Chronicles 28:3 think of freedom of religion since as part of their religion they burnt their children to death for their god.
Most of the founding fathers that signed the Declaration of Independence actually were Deists, not Christians. I don't know about the Adams brothers though.

Back then, different Christian groups didn't trust each other, and there was plenty of animosity to go around, which is why we see freedom of religion in the 1st Amendment. And based on what we saw in European history for hundreds of years, the idea that Christian countries would somehow bring stability and avoid armed conflict is totally bogus.

And look at how Catholics were treated in this country for an example of hatred, bigotry, and both legal and illegal suppression.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Most of the founding fathers that signed the Declaration of Independence actually were Deists, not Christians. I don't know about the Adams brothers though.
Back then, different Christian groups didn't trust each other, and there was plenty of animosity to go around, which is why we see freedom of religion in the 1st Amendment. And based on what we saw in European history for hundreds of years, the idea that Christian countries would somehow bring stability and avoid armed conflict is totally bogus.
And look at how Catholics were treated in this country for an example of hatred, bigotry, and both legal and illegal suppression.

Yes, it is well known the founding fathers were Not Christians, but based ideas on Christian principles.
Apparently President Adams did recognize that the Constitution could Not work unless the country was populated by professing Christians.
Not only Catholics but other denominations were also hated.
The only ' Christian ' country mentioned in Scripture is God's ' spiritual nation '- 1 Peter 2:9; 1 Peter 2:5
That ' spiritual country ' or nation which started at Pentecost, has No borders or boundaries, and it can't be found located on any map.
In other words, peoples out of all nations can become part of God's spiritual country or nation no matter where on Earth they reside.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, it is well known the founding fathers were Not Christians, but based ideas on Christian principles.
Apparently President Adams did recognize that the Constitution could Not work unless the country was populated by professing Christians.
Not only Catholics but other denominations were also hated.
The only ' Christian ' country mentioned in Scripture is God's ' spiritual nation '- 1 Peter 2:9; 1 Peter 2:5
That ' spiritual country ' or nation which started at Pentecost, has No borders or boundaries, and it can't be found located on any map.
In other words, peoples out of all nations can become part of God's spiritual country or nation no matter where on Earth they reside.
The latter part is true of the claim of many religions, not just Christianity. Islam is another example, as is Buddhism.

BTW, it could not have been Adams since we didn't operate out of the Constitution then as we were under the Articles of Confederation, so something is wrong with your source(s). You may want to go back and check it/them out.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
I voted number two. Imagine all the beautiful temples and monuments we could have. Imagine the public rituals, the celebrations, and the focus on leaving across this land a lasting legacy of this era's collective spiritual-religious mindset.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Not sure I understand the difference between 'irreligious' and 'neutral'. 'Neutral' sounds friendlier so I voted 'The state should be neutral regards religion and allow each person freedom of religion'.

The government should only be involved when some civil law is broken.

It's deliberately vague to avoid controversy over the use of the term "state atheist". For the purposes of the poll, Irreligious means roughly anti-religious or excluding religion from the state.

No easy answer, which makes it a good question!

I'd probably squeeze somewhere between 2 and 3

I agree with you that real neutrality is impossible. But a state based on irreligion/ atheism is an unrepresentative, runs counter to the vast majority of any free thinking population. And the concept of a state being atheist 'but not imposing' this ideology in any way is also unrealistic.

So I'd say the least worst option is; a state founded on and following it's people's religious values, with a strict focus on separation of church and state, i.e. keeping politician's hands off those religious values

An Interesting answer. I was tempted to vote for the fourth option for some of the reasons you spelled out but dared myself to be a bit bolder as I thought something like 90% would vote for three or four. I'm somewhere between the secularism of the founding fathers and the state atheism of the USSR because I think you need some form of enlightenment actually built in to the system so it's safely progressive and constantly tries to improve itself- but I have never accepted the idea that everyone should be forced into believing an official atheist ideology given how destructive that would be.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I voted number two. Imagine all the beautiful temples and monuments we could have. Imagine the public rituals, the celebrations, and the focus on leaving across this land a lasting legacy of this era's collective spiritual-religious mindset.
We have number two here. It's not all that great. Instead of "beautiful temples" you can get something like this:

serveimage
 
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