The rules for leaving Islam and life after Islam -

[cynic2005]

You gotta problem with that?

Are you a muslim? Anyone who converts knows such a thing, and they convert nevertheless, so whats your problem?

If there was a religion, with a different God (not Allah), that said to kill apostates, would you have a problem with that?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The rules for leaving Islam and life after Islam - explained

Thre isa only one rule - accrding to the Islamic teachings you must die, i will prove please read below

I will explain what i understand from each versus but i would really like a well balance response on this- let’s begin

(Sahih Bukhari 4.260)
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

its pretty cut and dried -

Bukhari9,83,17
Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."


so this verse below says you can only kill a Muslim in 3 cases , when he murders - if a Muslim cheats on there partner and when a Muslim leaves Islam - pretty clear there

YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Reneges defention - deserter: a disloyal person who betrays or deserts his cause or religion or political party or friend etc.

slay them - pretty clear from the above verse, some say this is in time of war - does not matter when it is this as about leaving islam not war

So, Muslims are free to investigate the truth of other religions only though Islamic sources and at the end they MUST accept Islam as or face death. They are not allowed to own or read a Bible or the sacred books of other religions. They are free to investigate these religions by asking about them from their Imams.

“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” (Quran 2:256)

this verse seems totally flawed and you can see that by the fact your are not allowed to own a bible in Saudi or if you do you will be in very big trouble , so which verse in the Quran do you believe and life by ?, i would say that verse (Quran 2:256) was put in there to offset all the other versus that talk about leaving Islam and being killed if you do , it seems to me there can be only one conclusion Islam teaches if you want to leave you must die - thats disgusting -but also a clever way to make sure the relgion always grows and gets bigger

please please dont use the argument that Islam is a very serious descion you make so on and on......utter and total rubbish .....you should be free to choose any religion and leave it if you want , and leave it for God to deal with you in the afterlife .I would love a reply on this I cant see any way to defend but eagerly look forward to the reply……..peace and many thanks

NOTE:This is not Islam bashing - many people want to know why tehre is so much Islam basign now days - that becasue more peple have had the chance to study the quran in english and see waht it really has to say instead of relying on the imam for information, imo

Curry powder some things you have to take into account context wise when reading these things.

1) This was during a time when Islam was still in danger from it's enemies, and the Arab world was still a very divided and dangerous society. You can't just quote Muhammad without taking the times he lived in into account.

2) The Quran only says to kill them if they turn renegade, and if you read a few verses later it says "if they offer you peace, then Allah has made no way for you to fight against them, so be mindful of Allah, and if you fight them afterwards, know that Allah does not love those who transgress limits."

 

[Badran]

Are you leaning towards Quranim?

No, I'm not. I do agree with some of their ideas though. I do think that a lot of corruption is being caused and attached to Islam due to false Hadiths. The difference is i don't think that means i should discard Hadiths all around, because they are an essential part of the religion.

 

[beenie]

No, I'm not. I do agree with some of their ideas though. I do think that a lot of corruption is being caused and attached to Islam due to false Hadiths. The difference is i don't think that means i should discard Hadiths all around, because they are an essential part of the religion.

i agree with this as well, and am struggling with the same things.

 

[YmirGF]

Aren't all "prophets" compelled?

Are they? Hmmm. You must try to appreciate the simple fact that I do not consider Muhammad to be a prophet. A brilliant man for his time, definitely, but a prophet - no. That is going a tad far.

Any human who is spoken to by God would have no choice but to obey.

Really? You know this for a fact? Are you "good" with them acting on - what are most likely - delusions?

The question is, is one who has entered a belief involuntary from birth, or through voluntary conversion, compelled by threat of death to keep that belief?

I agree that those are the standard, garden variety goalposts, however the rule doesn't seem to apply to all, thus the statement must be taken with a grain of salt.

There is no compulsion in religion [2:256] seems to indicate that the answer is no.

Given that many Muslims believe that apostasy warrants death tends to blow this to smithereens. Surely there cannot be that many traitors. If there is, what does that say about the religion itself? I guess we have some solace in the dual fact that not all Muslims believe in such a harsh treatment of those exiting the faith. In theory, the line should be rewritten, "For the most part, there is no compulsion in religion." To say there is none, is to deny reality.

 

[Badran]

Given that many Muslims believe that apostasy warrants death tends to blow this to smithereens. Surely there cannot be that many traitors. If there is, what does that say about the religion itself? I guess we have some solace in the dual fact that not all Muslims believe in such a harsh treatment of those exiting the faith. In theory, the line should be rewritten, "For the most part, there is no compulsion in religion." To say there is none, is to deny reality.

Of course this rule "no compulsion in religion" is being contradicted and weakened by those who believe we should kill converts. The point being made is to clarify that the Quran advocates the opposite of what some Haidths are supposed to be advocating. And the Quran is the most importatn thing. Meaning that what is being attempted to be explained here, is that we shouldn't kill converts, because it contradicts with other teachings.

 

[YmirGF]

Of course this rule "no compulsion in religion" is being contradicted and weakened by those who believe we should kill converts. The point being made is to clarify that the Quran advocates the opposite of what some Haidths are supposed to be advocating. And the Quran is the most importatn thing. Meaning that what is being attempted to be explained here, is that we shouldn't kill converts, because it contradicts with other teachings.

I understand that, Badran, however even you must admit that that is a modern interpretation. That is encouraging, but the problem here is that there is no definitive interpretation. You have 1400 years of rendered opinions against your thinking, so it will be a tough road to hoe convincing all Muslims that they are not looking at this from a more enlightened perspective. I sincerely, wish you well.

 

[currypowder]

Right, and did you know that even his companions used to get beaten by angels at night in order to accept Islam? Poor guys, really.

waht - source please - i think imams made up that story soufrce for companions used to get beaten by angels at night in order to accept Islam

 

[currypowder]

Aren't all "prophets" compelled?
Any human who is spoken to by God would have no choice but to obey.
The question is, is one who has entered a belief involuntary from birth, or through voluntary conversion, compelled by threat of death to keep that belief?


There is no compulsion in religion [2:256] seems to indicate that the answer is no.

If there is compulsion in relgion , why dont all the islamic states give totol freedom to anyone who wants to convert to chrtianity and not try and stop then in any way in searching and following other relgions ?

 

[Badran]

I understand that, Badran, however even you must admit that that is a modern interpretation. That is encouraging, but the problem here is that there is no definitive interpretation. You have 1400 years of rendered opinions against your thinking, so it will be a tough road to hoe convincing all Muslims that they are not looking at this from a more enlightened perspective. I sincerely, wish you well.

Thank you. There is dispute among scholars that the prophet has never carried out this supposed punishment. So, while i haven't read any old scholars work that says that they disagree with this idea, i would say it wouldn't be a surprise if there were some scholars and people who didn't believe in this concept.

 

[Badran]

waht - source please - i think imams made up that story soufrce for companions used to get beaten by angels at night in order to accept Islam

She was being sarcastic.

 

[currypowder]

Thank you. There is dispute among scholars that the prophet has never carried out this supposed punishment. So, while i haven't read any old scholars work that says that they disagree with this idea, i would say it wouldn't be a surprise if there were some scholars and people who didn't believe in this concept.

That is encouraging, but the problem here is that there is no definitive interpretation. so tell me how do you know waht anythin in the quran is meant to say if there is is no definitive interpretation, - ohhh wait let me answer this , from your imam , see i have a big problem with that how do i know the imam has not twisted the mesage to show a diffrent side of islam i find this a big problem , as most muslims go to there imam for information and just assme waht ihe says is correct with out reading the orginal text

 

[Badran]

That is encouraging, but the problem here is that there is no definitive interpretation. so tell me how do you know waht anythin in the quran is meant to say if there is is no definitive interpretation, - ohhh wait let me answer this , from your imam , see i have a big problem with that how do i know the imam has not twisted the mesage to show a diffrent side of islam i find this a big problem , as most muslims go to there imam for information and just assme waht ihe says is correct with out reading the orginal text

I have no Imam. I'm not attached to anyone. I listen to all scholars and read various books talking about the subject then i make up my mind.

The Quran is not a mystery. Its interpretation is a process, which sometimes results in multiple meanings for a verse. You can easily make up your mind after reading the various interpretations and putting in mind other things, to decide which interpretation for those things which have multiple interpretations.

However lots of verses on the other hand are very simple, and convey a clear message.

 

[currypowder]

I have no Imam. I'm not attached to anyone. I listen to all scholars and read various books talking about the subject then i make up my mind.

The Quran is not a mystery. Its interpretation is a process, which sometimes results in multiple meanings for a verse. You can easily make up your mind after reading the various interpretations and putting in mind other things, to decide which interpretation for those things which have multiple interpretations.

However lots of verses on the other hand are very simple, and convey a clear message.

I listen to all scholars and read various books talking about the subject - who were wrote by imams - why not read the orginal text , to say the hadiths/surrha are incorrect becuase the quran says diffrent is weak , death and aphostphy have been told of many amny times in the surah and hadith so thats a weak argument , if it was 1 vs in the hadith /surrah then yeah maybe , but ther are many accounts of it, i mean are muslims warned before they convert to islm that they could be killed if they left it ?

 

[gnostic]

It is most likely why honor killing occurs among some Muslim communities.

When one member leave Islam, the family would view that the one that left have brought disgrace upon not only their religion Islam, but dishonor to the family's honor. And the only way the family see in restoring their honor is murdering their own kin.

But where is the honor of murdering one's only kin?

Murder is murder, no matter if you do out of greed, jealousy or for honor or for one's religion. It is revenge not justice.

 

[LuisDantas]

That is the core issue, and a very important one at that, I think; how is a faithful expected to balance literal interpretation with the obvious duty to make one's own judgements?

 

[Badran]

who were wrote by imams

No they weren't. Also thats not what you said. You said from "my" imam.

why not read the orginal text

Who told you i don't?

to say the hadiths/surrha are incorrect becuase the quran says diffrent is weak , death and aphostphy have been told of many amny times in the surah and hadith so thats a weak argument

What are you talking about? What is that that has been told of "many many" times in the Surah and Hadith? And which surah is that?

if it was 1 vs in the hadith /surrah then yeah maybe , but ther are many accounts of it,

What do you mean "hadith/surah"? There is no mentioning for this in the Quran. How are you arguing this when you don't even know that much?

Its only mentioned in Hadiths.

i mean are muslims warned before they convert to islm that they could be killed if they left it ?

I already answered that.

 

[TashaN]

That is the core issue, and a very important one at that, I think; how is a faithful expected to balance literal interpretation with the obvious duty to make one's own judgements?

That's why we been created, to make these types of decisions.

 

[TashaN]

A good thread on this topic. Please read all the posts to get the whole picture.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/28162-apostasy-islam.html

 

[tariqkhwaja]

One of the saddest truths of this age of Muslims is their willingness to take revenge. Indeed they have done well to imitate Jews in this respect. It is, indeed, a pain to feel the fire in Muslims as it is painful to see the same in Jews and one hopes both learn the wrong of their ways. If you know a loved ones who have immersed themselves in the quest for vengeance and feel sorry for their souls then you know how it feels to see Muslims and Jews that do the same. May God guide us all.

One of the ways this fire manifests itself in modern Muslims is that (as far as I know) most believe that the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death. That is, if a Muslim should choose to change his religion and leave Islam, that person must be killed.

Has not the Quran clearly stated that:

"A section of the people of the Book urge some from among themselves: why not affirm, in the early part of the day, belief in that which has been revealed unto the believers and repudiate it in the latter part of the day, perchance they may turn away from their faith." (3.73)

This used to happen (Commentary: Bahral Muheet , vol. 11, 493) but these people were never punished. If there was any such law that decreed punishment for apostates these people would have never even dreamed of pulling something like this off!

"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance." (4.138)

After reading these verses is there any doubt as to what is the Islamic punishment of apostasy? Yes God would punish such people but there is no mention of any Muslim or Islamic government having authority to punish people for their religious beliefs.

Finally, the Quran closes the argument by saying "There is no compulsion in religion for the right way is clear from the wrong" (2.257). Therefore, according to the Quran, itself, only an Islam that could not prove its arguments through logical reasoning is one that would prevent people from leaving Islam. Which is the fact of the matter actually ... the Muslim scholars can not effectively prove all their arguments.

In the above discourse attempt was made to show how obvious the truth is once it is pointed out yet prevalently Muslim scholars today believe that the punishment for apostasy is death. It is an example of the need for a Divinely Guided reformer for the Muslims.

The chapter on the Punishment for Apostasy (mirror link) in the book Murder in the Name of Allah (mirror link) gives a detailed exposition on the subject along with discussion on the many Hadith used to support a punishment (a discussion that I have omitted in this note).

Love for All, Hatred for None.