The rules for leaving Islam and life after Islam -

[zenzero]

Friends,

Kindly understand the question which is:

The rules for leaving Islam and life after Islam -

Now, the defination of Islam is as follows:

Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.

Everything and every phenomenon in the world other than man is administered totally by God-made laws, ie. they are obedient to God and submissive to his laws, they are in the State of Islam. Man possesses the qualities of intelligence and choice, thus he is invited to submit to the good will of God and obey His law, ie, become a Muslim.

Submission to the good will of God, together with obedience to His beneficial Law, ie, becoming a Muslim, is the best safeguard for man's peace and harmony.

Now, with that definition is there any way the question fits??
It cannot, simply because there are no rules to follow, it is an individuals own understanding as when one is a part of *god* itself where does the question of submission comes??
It is very clear that the MIND is creating such differences between the individual and that *god* which is incorrect and so the mind itself is making the rules and further dividing it by creating other illusions of separation of the God labelled as Allah and others and then joining those who follow the label *allah* and those that use other labels.
Only by transcending the mind is what RELIGION is all about!

Love & rgds

 

[beenie]

One of the saddest truths of this age of Muslims is their willingness to take revenge. Indeed they have done well to imitate Jews in this respect. It is, indeed, a pain to feel the fire in Muslims as it is painful to see the same in Jews and one hopes both learn the wrong of their ways. If you know a loved ones who have immersed themselves in the quest for vengeance and feel sorry for their souls then you know how it feels to see Muslims and Jews that do the same. May God guide us all.

One of the ways this fire manifests itself in modern Muslims is that (as far as I know) most believe that the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death. That is, if a Muslim should choose to change his religion and leave Islam, that person must be killed.

Has not the Quran clearly stated that:

"A section of the people of the Book urge some from among themselves: why not affirm, in the early part of the day, belief in that which has been revealed unto the believers and repudiate it in the latter part of the day, perchance they may turn away from their faith." (3.73)

This used to happen (Commentary: Bahral Muheet , vol. 11, 493) but these people were never punished. If there was any such law that decreed punishment for apostates these people would have never even dreamed of pulling something like this off!

"Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve and thereafter go on increasing in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them, nor guide them to any way of deliverance." (4.138)

After reading these verses is there any doubt as to what is the Islamic punishment of apostasy? Yes God would punish such people but there is no mention of any Muslim or Islamic government having authority to punish people for their religious beliefs.

Finally, the Quran closes the argument by saying "There is no compulsion in religion for the right way is clear from the wrong" (2.257). Therefore, according to the Quran, itself, only an Islam that could not prove its arguments through logical reasoning is one that would prevent people from leaving Islam. Which is the fact of the matter actually ... the Muslim scholars can not effectively prove all their arguments.

In the above discourse attempt was made to show how obvious the truth is once it is pointed out yet prevalently Muslim scholars today believe that the punishment for apostasy is death. It is an example of the need for a Divinely Guided reformer for the Muslims.

The chapter on the Punishment for Apostasy (mirror link) in the book Murder in the Name of Allah (mirror link) gives a detailed exposition on the subject along with discussion on the many Hadith used to support a punishment (a discussion that I have omitted in this note).

Love for All, Hatred for None.

i agree with everything you posted, but i don't understand what you mean about the bolded. what do the Jews have to do with this, and why must they be mentioned at all?

 

[gnostic]

i agree with everything you posted, but i don't understand what you mean about the bolded. what do the Jews have to do with this, and why must they be mentioned at all?

The Jewish revenge thingy. I supposed tariqkhwaja is referring to the Jewish law governing justice/revenge - "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth".

 

[beenie]

The Jewish revenge thingy. I supposed tariqkhwaja is referring to the Jewish law governing justice/revenge - "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth".

gotcha, thanks

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I accept them THEN I think about them and find the wisdom behind it, thats what we call submission ( Islam),

Now , if you're willing to convert, then you should think about it. If you're not, than whats the purpose of it? Ive learnt in my religion not to discuss until theres a benefit behind it, useless debates are very disliken in Islam. So precise the goal and if its a logical one, we'll continue discussing this issue Inshallah.

So if someone is born into Islam never fell comfortable with it. They should be killed also ?

You do see why so many people see Islam in a negative light. I can see why you are ashamed of your faith and won't discuss it in polite company. Its kind of like being an alcoholic. Who wants to announce to the world.

 

[beenie]

So if someone is born into Islam never fell comfortable with it. They should be killed also ?

You do see why so many people see Islam in a negative light. I can see why you are ashamed of your faith and won't discuss it in polite company. Its kind of like being an alcoholic. Who wants to announce to the world.

i hope that's not what she's saying.
i gathered from her post that she feels discussing these matters are not useful, but maybe i'm misreading it.

 

[Badran]

So if someone is born into Islam never fell comfortable with it. They should be killed also ?

You do see why so many people see Islam in a negative light. I can see why you are ashamed of your faith and won't discuss it in polite company. Its kind of like being an alcoholic. Who wants to announce to the world.

I certainly see where you're coming from, but one thing i know is that she's not ashamed of her faith.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

So if someone is born into Islam never fell comfortable with it. They should be killed also ?

You do see why so many people see Islam in a negative light. I can see why you are ashamed of your faith and won't discuss it in polite company. Its kind of like being an alcoholic. Who wants to announce to the world.

Im not ashamed at all , if I were I wouldnt have told you about my position. As fot those who were born into Islam and want to leave it then I have no idea since im not a scholar, i told you whats the basic rule then acting regarding each situaation is up to the court.

Ive said in such a way, because the Op ( who was banned by the way, it must tell you something no?) loved to make it look like : Hey look I found something no one talks about, about Islam. So I showed him that I know n I agree to calm him down, so you may relax now and know that how I talked was related to this specific situation as for real discussion than you may try and read the already existing debate posted by brother Tashan you may like to continue that discussion instead of starting a whole other one from point Zero.

And of course its Ramadan and Im not in a mood of debates right now.

Peace

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

I certainly see where you're coming from, but one thing i know is that she's not ashamed of her faith.

Couldnt frubal you, Barakallahu feek brother. Will do some home works and try to answer your message Inshallah.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

waht - source please - i think imams made up that story soufrce for companions used to get beaten by angels at night in order to accept Islam

.......lol

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I certainly see where you're coming from, but one thing i know is that she's not ashamed of her faith.

Thats to bad, she would be better off ashamed of her belief system.
I see calling for someone death because they convert is a morally bankrupt position. This kind of comments cannot be allowed to be unanswered.

I respect muslims and The Islam that is expound upon by many scholars. The comments made by fatima_bintu_islam are morally detestable. The only thing I can do is join with others is speak out against it here on RF. This is your chance to do the right thing. Please tell us what are your views on killing converts. What are your views on Muslim folks who want them killed.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."-Edmund Burke

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

i hope that's not what she's saying.
i gathered from her post that she feels discussing these matters are not useful, but maybe i'm misreading it.

If she says that I will apologize for my ignorance.

 

[MissAlice]

Im not ashamed at all , if I were I wouldnt have told you about my position. As fot those who were born into Islam and want to leave it then I have no idea since im not a scholar, i told you whats the basic rule then acting regarding each situaation is up to the court.

No disrespect but what?

You support whatever a court orders without a thought?

What if it's unislamic? What if it's not in the quran?

You don't believe that there could be abuse in power or authority?

That gives me goosebumps.

 

[Badran]

Thats to bad, she would be better off ashamed of her belief system.
I see calling for someone death because they convert is a morally bankrupt position. This kind of comments cannot be allowed to be unanswered.

I respect muslims and The Islam that is expound upon by many scholars. The comments made by fatima_bintu_islam are morally detestable. The only thing I can do is join with others is speak out against it here on RF. This is your chance to do the right thing. Please tell us what are your views on killing converts. What are your views on Muslim folks who want them killed.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."-Edmund Burke

Don't get me wrong, i said i certainly see where you're coming from.

My position on killing people who convert is that i'm completely against it as the criminal act that it is, and i made that clear many times here. I also view it as a contradictory assumed rule, to the teachings of Islam. Whenever i see this subject brought up i oppose it, as this is not just a matter of religious views, or different thinking or whatever, i realize exactly what we're talking about here.

I was pointing out, that she isn't ashamed of her faith.

 

[LuisDantas]

Thats to bad, she would be better off ashamed of her belief system.
I see calling for someone death because they convert is a morally bankrupt position. This kind of comments cannot be allowed to be unanswered.

I respect muslims and The Islam that is expound upon by many scholars. The comments made by fatima_bintu_islam are morally detestable. The only thing I can do is join with others is speak out against it here on RF. This is your chance to do the right thing. Please tell us what are your views on killing converts. What are your views on Muslim folks who want them killed.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."-Edmund Burke

I find myself in complete agreement with you here.

 

[Sahar]

For the sake of honesty I must say that Fatima's thinking represent the opinion of the majority of Muslim scholars and (mostly) the majority of lay Muslims. There are others who disagree, of course.

There are scholars who distinguish between apostasy on a personal level, which is not punishable by death, and apostasy that is accompanied by what we call today high treason, in which case the punishment is for high treason, not for apostasy.

However, some scholars do not distinguish between the two types. The issue pertains to the way of interpreting texts in the Qur’an and the Hadith that deal with that subject.

islamonline.net/

 

[Badran]

According to my personal experience, as i discussed this matter with lots of people, Muslims opinions are divided between 3 opinions:

1) Not sure.

2) Agrees that killing converts is part of Islamic teachings. ( And this group contains those who hold the opinion, that not merely changing the religion is sufficient, but somehow accompanied by speaking against Islam or something like that).

3) Against killing converts.

The first two, are affected by the fact that this punishment is not put into action today. It makes it more of a trivial matter in their view. Or to put it more accurately, its not something that they give any serious thinking about, as it is a subject not affecting their life in anyway, nor is it applied. So some just go with the opinion of the majority of scholars without giving the subject much thinking, others do not decide a position to hold, and remain unsure and not really caring about the subject. An example of how trivial this is for lots of people, is that some of them are not even aware that there is any kind of controversy or dispute between scholars in regards to this subject.

Another thing that happened when i discussed this subject with people i know, is that it didn't take them any effort to decide to be against killing converts, either if they were unsure or supporting in the beginning, they easily changed their mind. All it took for them was a logical argument, coming from someone they trust. So, as time goes by, and more scholars hold the opinion of being against this, people naturally will too when they see scholars they trust and respect holding this position, and giving a logical explanation to that position.

 

[Cypress]

As fot those who were born into Islam and want to leave it then I have no idea since im not a scholar, i told you whats the basic rule then acting regarding each situaation is up to the court.

What has a court to do with conversion?
Which court?
Religion is a private matter, it has nothing to do with any court.
Anyway, how would someone know if another person is a Muslim or not?
One can go to mosque 5 times a day & observe all the behaviour rules of Islam when in public but believe in Buddha's teachings in the depth of one's heart.

 

[gnostic]

Perhaps, I misunderstanding the whole apostasy business. Perhaps, the misunderstanding come from the word treason or that of apostasy. Sorry, if I am asking too many questions.

So I am hoping that any of Muslims would please clarify.

Sorry, but what is high treason in Islam?

And how is different from apostasy?

If they are 2 different thing, then the questions are the following:

Then define apostasy, if you would?

Are there different forms of apostasy?

Or are there different levels of apostasy, where one require death sentence (or any other punishment)?

 

[Badran]

Perhaps, I misunderstanding the whole apostasy business. Perhaps, the misunderstanding come from the word treason or that of apostasy. Sorry, if I am asking too many questions.

So I am hoping that any of Muslims would please clarify.

Sorry, but what is high treason in Islam?

And how is different from apostasy?

If they are 2 different thing, then the questions are the following:

Then define apostasy, if you would?

Are there different forms of apostasy?

Or are there different levels of apostasy, where one require death sentence (or any other punishment)?

There are two different things:

1) leaving Islam (either for another religion, or no religion).

2) The common understanding of treason.

These are two different things, the problem is however is that some people mix up between the two, and consider merely leaving Islam as a form of treason.

There are three ways in which you could leave Islam, leave and have no bad feelings towards it or its followers, or leaving it but with a negative view which you usually share with others. The last is leaving it and becoming an enemy to muslims, or in other words becoming a traitor to your community, in the common understanding of being a traitor.

The last one is the one on which this is supposed to be applied, as in there is no punishment for anybody leaving Islam, except if they utterly become enemies to the community.

So if someone leaves Islam and has no problem with it, but just don't want to follow it, or if someone leaves it and criticizes it, he shouldn't be touched. However, like i said for people who believe in killing apostates, some of them consider leaving the religion and criticizing Islam and Muslims as treason, and some consider even merely leaving as treason.