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The SelfishdeGenerate.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Richard Dawkins' famous book posited the idea that evolution tends to occur by the dictates of the gene's ability to survive through fortuitous adaptations such that fitness for survival is fancied the tautological though it be source for surviving. Since survival is the key to everything in the gene's world, a fit of selfishness in the face of not surviving is to be expected if not applauded. Who would fault the gene for not wanting to not survive? Nevertheless, though we might cheer the vaunted gene on to success and survival at all cost, we might be inclined to find what's delightful for the gene, degenerate for the meme, and the epistemology constructed of a selfish meme.

Though all is fair in love and survival, it's nevertheless difficult ---thankfully ---for most people to swallow the idea that a person's epistemological bearing should be tethered to believing and defending anything whatsoever that leads to one's worldview being the fittest for survival. Most morally-minded persons would probably be uncomfortable swimming in a gene-pool whose memes and epistemology are fitted solely for survival; most would likely consider such a gene-pool or the person or persons come from it the dictionary definition of "The SelfishdeGenerate."



John
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
Richard Dawkins' famous book posited the idea that evolution tends to occur by the dictates of the gene's ability to survive through fortuitous adaptations such that fitness for survival is fancied the tautological though it be source for surviving. Since survival is the key to everything in the gene's world, a fit of selfishness in the face of not surviving is to be expected if not applauded. Who would fault the gene for not wanting to not survive? Nevertheless, though we might cheer the vaunted gene on to success and survival at all cost, we might be inclined to find what's delightful for the gene, degenerate for the meme, and the epistemology constructed of a selfish meme.

Though all is fair in love and survival, it's nevertheless difficult ---thankfully ---for most people to swallow the idea that a person's epistemological bearing should be tethered to believing and defending anything whatsoever that leads to one's worldview being the fittest for survival. Most morally-minded persons would probably be uncomfortable swimming in a gene-pool whose memes and epistemology are fitted solely for survival; most would likely consider such a gene-pool or the person or persons come from it the dictionary definition of "The SelfishdeGenerate."



John
I don't know if I understand what you want to convey with that post, but I have a suspicion that you may have a misconception about what "selfishness" means for a gene. (Well, nothing "means" anything to a gene, but allow me the anthropomorphology for the sake of ease of explanation.)
A gene doesn't care about the survival of the individuum it expresses. It cares about its own survival in the gene pool of the species. I.e., when a species, on average, is peaceful, cooperative and altruistic, and that behaviour maximizes reproductive fitness, the gene is happy. There is no need for the phenotype to be selfish, as long as the genotype survives and thrives.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I'd just like to point out that modern evolutionary biology is a lot more complicated than the "selfish gene" idea - especially as more women have become involved in the field. There is now a lot more well past due attention paid to the role of mutualisms and cooperation, the results of which have made the story significantly more complicated than simple competition and selfishness narratives. The story of mycorrhizal networks in forests especially is a fascinating one - how trees of different species exchange nutrients with each other and how the forest acts as one big super organism. So if you're uncomfortable with the myopic "survival of the fittest" (well, it actually only "survival of the fit enough" let's not forget) nonsense, don't worry - evolutionary biology has long since moved past such simplistic narratives.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
A gene doesn't care about the survival of the individuum it expresses. It cares about its own survival in the gene pool of the species. I.e., when a species, on average, is peaceful, cooperative and altruistic, and that behaviour maximizes reproductive fitness, the gene is happy. There is no need for the phenotype to be selfish, as long as the genotype survives and thrives.

I was juxtaposing the difference between the mindless activities of the gene, which Dawkins claims are devoid of qualities like peacefulness, cooperation, and altruism, with the fact that memes (ideas, ideologies, concepts) can indeed foster the cooperation and altruism that's lacking in the hard realities of the natural world:

We can even discuss ways of deliberately cultivating and nurturing pure, disinterested altruism – something that has no place in nature, something that has never existed before in the whole history of the world. We are built as gene machines and cultured as meme machines, but we have the power to turn against our creators. We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators.​
Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene, p. 200-201.​

Your response is entangled in the spider's web of the opening message of this thread since you appear to want to engage in just the sort of epistemological "degeneracy" the opening message want's to zero in on. You've hit the bull's eye so to speak by assuming concepts that are unique to the mind, the meme (i.e., altruism and peaceful coexistence), are parallel concepts found in the natural world of the gene. In mixing the two, you are, in the terminology of the opening message, accepting a falsehood (the idea that genes can foster cooperation, altruism, and peacefulness) since accepting and positing this falsehood makes your worldview able to survive ---for you at leas ---in an environment where the truth of the matter would snuff out your worldview based on the fact that it's simply not true. (A working definition of "degeneracy" being accepting a scientific falsehood as true for the sake of self-consistency and the survival of an otherwise untrue belief.)

In the natural world, genes can be forced to cooperate for the sake of survival, but given half a chance they will stab you in the back an take off with everything. True altruism is, to quote Dawkins, "something that has no place in nature, something that has never existed before in the whole history of the world." Until, that is, the rise of the mind of modern man.




John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I'd just like to point out that modern evolutionary biology is a lot more complicated than the "selfish gene" idea - especially as more women have become involved in the field. There is now a lot more well past due attention paid to the role of mutualisms and cooperation, the results of which have made the story significantly more complicated than simple competition and selfishness narratives. The story of mycorrhizal networks in forests especially is a fascinating one - how trees of different species exchange nutrients with each other and how the forest acts as one big super organism. So if you're uncomfortable with the myopic "survival of the fittest" (well, it actually only "survival of the fit enough" let's not forget) nonsense, don't worry - evolutionary biology has long since moved past such simplistic narratives.

No argument with leaving behind the simplistic narrative you've zeroed in on nicely.

What this thread was intended to address is the far less simplistic error in evolutionary theory whereby conscious properties of the human mind, properties that can no longer be assumed to be secondary to the biology of the genes where the mind exists, are, for the sake of a non-theistic "thought collective" (a large and pervasive group ideology) still assumed to be epiphenomena of the activities of genes. Idea being that those who are part of a huge "thought collective" for whom nature is incorrectly believed to be the foundation and genesis of everything (including the human mind) are forced to live within a provable error hidden from the science of their worldview in order that the foundational belief of the "thought collective" not succumb to a truth and reality conveniently left out of said worldview.



John
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
Your response is entangled in the spider's web of the opening message of this thread since you appear to want to engage in just the sort of epistemological "degeneracy" the opening message want's to zero in on. You've hit the bull's eye so to speak by assuming concepts that are unique to the mind, the meme (i.e., altruism and peaceful coexistence), are parallel concepts found in the natural world of the gene. In mixing the two, you are, in the terminology of the opening message, accepting a falsehood (the idea that genes can foster cooperation, altruism, and peacefulness) since accepting and positing this falsehood makes your worldview able to survive ---for you at leas ---in an environment where the truth of the matter would snuff out your worldview based on the fact that it's simply not true. (A working definition of "degeneracy" being accepting a scientific falsehood as true for the sake of self-consistency and the survival of an otherwise untrue belief.)
Does cooperation, altruism and peacefulness exist in evolved species?
If you don't deny that, you know that it isn't a falsehood that they came into existence by evolution.
In the natural world, genes can be forced to cooperate for the sake of survival, but given half a chance they will stab you in the back an take off with everything.
And here, the anthropomorphism breaks together. Genes don't act on their free will. But yes, if the environment changes in a way that it doesn't favour cooperation, the gene that codes for cooperation, will die out.
True altruism is, to quote Dawkins, "something that has no place in nature, something that has never existed before in the whole history of the world." Until, that is, the rise of the mind of modern man.
And here, Dawkins was wrong. Unknowingly, though, as the research on altruism in non-human animals is younger than his book.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Does cooperation, altruism and peacefulness exist in evolved species? If you don't deny that, you know that it isn't a falsehood that they came into existence by evolution.

Touche! Yes altruism and peacefulness exist in evolved species. So I don't deny that. Which makes it appear, at this point, that your syllogism has me in a choke-hold. :)

And here, the anthropomorphism breaks together. Genes don't act on their free will. But yes, if the environment changes in a way that it doesn't favour cooperation, the gene that codes for cooperation, will die out.

We anthropomorphize the activities of genes since its impossible to deny that the activities of genes lead to design that transcends mere randomness. Dawkins coined the term "designoid" to speak of things that look designed but which, by his reasoning, and the reasoning of NeoDarwinism in general, simply can't be designed since the foundation of the NeoDarwinist thought-collective (and its worldview/thought-style) is the belief that there's no real, thoughtful, design-laced cognition, involved in Nature.

Since "design" tends to imply some sort of cognitive designer, or at least some quasi-mental process that distinguishes mere relativity from useful, thoughtful, products, atheistic-NeoDarwinists tend to deny what to the simpleton's untrained eyes appears to undeniably represent the product of some kind of design.

Whereas a simpleton can concede that evolved products exhibit altruism, and can tend toward co-existence, even practice self-sacrifice for other organisms (since it seems patently obvious), it's far more difficult getting NeoDarwinists to admit that the human brain appears to exhibit the same kinds of far-from-random design-characteristics that the same NeoDarwinists have a difficult time denying exist in say a Pentium chip, a Mars-lander, or a man-made satellite circling the planet.

Though it's almost impossible to deny that a Rolex watch, or a Mars-lander, require a cognitive form of design that allows these products to carreen noticably far from relativistic-equilibrium, on the other hand, to admit the same is true of the human brain, is near impossible for the NeoDarwinist since he knows the Rolex-designer possesses, for whatever reason, the ability to design products that are outside of relativistic-equilibirum, while the human brain (which is purportedly the tool from whence the Rolex-designer's ability to design arises), does not, cannot, in the thought/style of the NeoDarwinist thought-collective, possess its own mind-ful sort of designer.

I occasionally encounter even quite sophisticated evolutionary theorists who find this paradoxical. How could a process with no foresight invent a process with foresight?​
Daniel Dennett, Freedom Evolves, p. 53.​

How can the complexity the brain requires to design and deliver a Mars-lander to the red planet, a complexity that seems to be equal to or greater than the Mars-lander itself, not be designed? If the human brain is the manner in which the design-characteristics of the Mars-lander arises, how is it possible that the complexity of the human brain can arise from random, undirected, thoughtless, processes?

I share with the materialists or physicalists not only the emphasis on material objects as the paradigms of reality, but also the evolutionary hypothesis. But our ways seem to part when evolution produces minds, and human language. And they part even more widely when human minds produce stories, explanatory myths, tools and works of art and of science. All this, so it seems, has evolved without any violation of the laws of physics. But with life, even with low forms of life, problem-solving enters the universe; and with the higher form, purposes and aims, consciously pursued. We can only wonder that matter can thus transcend itself, by producing mind, purpose, and a world of the products of the human mind.​
Karl Popper, The Self and Its Brain, p. 11.​

Popper's statement above, unwrapped, is kind of the point of this thread. Popper knows that the emphasis of the "materialists and physicalists" (NeoDarwinists) can't be true. Their thought-collective and its style of thought is false. Popper knows this, and says so if the statement above is carefully parsed. And yet he never extricated his thinking from a thought-collective he knows is false. Why?

That's the intended point of this thread: to understand how and why one of the world's largest and most entrenched thought-collectives (a thought-collective to which the majority of this forum's would-be elite thinkers belong), are able to use the "survival of the fittest" mantra in a manner which, since they chose to believe in this tautology, infects their memetic evolution in a fatal manner whereby they believe that so long as their worldview and its thought-collective survives, it's therefore, retroactively, and proactively fit for, the fitest for, future survival. This particular thought-collective is, to this day, surviving, merely for the sake of surviving, in the unfortunate, and grossely misplaced belief that their existence, their survival, somehow proves the truthfulness and or usefulness (meaningfulness) of a worldview that's woefully ill-adapted to the glories of the rapidly approaching kingdom of God which will be peopled by those his Mind has both designed (in the genetic sense), and directly sired (in the memetic sense of John 6:53 and 1 Corinthians 2:16).



John
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
That's the intended point of this thread: to understand how and why one of the world's largest and most entrenched thought-collectives (a thought-collective to which the majority of this forum's would-be elite thinkers belong), are able to use the "survival of the fittest" mantra in a manner which, since they chose to believe in this tautology, infects their memetic evolution in a fatal manner whereby they believe that so long as their worldview and its thought-collective survives, it's therefore, retroactively, and proactively fit for, the fitest for, future survival.
So, you are advocating for ID? And because you have no arguments for it, you criticize the ToE, in hopes your model survives as the default?
We had that plenty, but not so eloquently hidden behind seemingly sophisticated language.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
So, you are advocating for ID? And because you have no arguments for it, you criticize the ToE, in hopes your model survives as the default?
We had that plenty, but not so eloquently hidden behind seemingly sophisticated language.

What do you mean by "ID" and "ToE"? I'm not connecting them to the discussion?



John
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
What do you mean by "ID" and "ToE"? I'm not connecting them to the discussion?



John
the reasoning of NeoDarwinism in general, simply can't be designed since the foundation of the NeoDarwinist thought-collective (and its worldview/thought-style) is the belief that there's no real, thoughtful, design-laced cognition, involved in Nature.

Since "design" tends to imply some sort of cognitive designer, or at least some quasi-mental process that distinguishes mere relativity from useful, thoughtful, products, atheistic-NeoDarwinists tend to deny what to the simpleton's untrained eyes appears to undeniably represent the product of some kind of design.

Whereas a simpleton can concede that evolved products exhibit altruism, and can tend toward co-existence, even practice self-sacrifice for other organisms (since it seems patently obvious), it's far more difficult getting NeoDarwinists to admit that the human brain appears to exhibit the same kinds of far-from-random design-characteristics that the same NeoDarwinists have a difficult time denying exist in say a Pentium chip, a Mars-lander, or a man-made satellite circling the planet.

[...]

That's the intended point of this thread: to understand how and why one of the world's largest and most entrenched thought-collectives (a thought-collective to which the majority of this forum's would-be elite thinkers belong), are able to use the "survival of the fittest" mantra in a manner which, since they chose to believe in this tautology, infects their memetic evolution in a fatal manner whereby they believe that so long as their worldview and its thought-collective survives, it's therefore, retroactively, and proactively fit for, the fitest for, future survival. This particular thought-collective is, to this day, surviving, merely for the sake of surviving, in the unfortunate, and grossely misplaced belief that their existence, their survival, somehow proves the truthfulness and or usefulness (meaningfulness) of a worldview that's woefully ill-adapted to the glories of the rapidly approaching kingdom of God which will be peopled by those his Mind has both designed (in the genetic sense), and directly sired (in the memetic sense of John 6:53 and 1 Corinthians 2:16).
Who are the "NeoDarwinist thought-collective" if not a derogatory term for evolutionary biologist, you know, people who work on the Theory of Evolution (ToE)?
And what do you mean by "cognitive designer", "design-laced cognition" and "God [...] has [...] designed", if not some form of Intelligent Design (ID)?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Who are the "NeoDarwinist thought-collective" if not a derogatory term for evolutionary biologist, you know, people who work on the Theory of Evolution (ToE)?
And what do you mean by "cognitive designer", "design-laced cognition" and "God [...] has [...] designed", if not some form of Intelligent Design (ID)?

Ok. Sorry. "ToE" is sometimes Theory of Everything. And I've never used, and rarely read ToE to speak of the Theory of Evolution. Same with ID. I've never spoke of "intelligent design." So forgive me for not connecting the dots. My bad.



John
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Richard Dawkins' famous book posited the idea that evolution tends to occur by the dictates of the gene's ability to survive through fortuitous adaptations such that fitness for survival is fancied the tautological though it be source for surviving. Since survival is the key to everything in the gene's world, a fit of selfishness in the face of not surviving is to be expected if not applauded. Who would fault the gene for not wanting to not survive? Nevertheless, though we might cheer the vaunted gene on to success and survival at all cost, we might be inclined to find what's delightful for the gene, degenerate for the meme, and the epistemology constructed of a selfish meme.

Though all is fair in love and survival, it's nevertheless difficult ---thankfully ---for most people to swallow the idea that a person's epistemological bearing should be tethered to believing and defending anything whatsoever that leads to one's worldview being the fittest for survival. Most morally-minded persons would probably be uncomfortable swimming in a gene-pool whose memes and epistemology are fitted solely for survival; most would likely consider such a gene-pool or the person or persons come from it the dictionary definition of "The SelfishdeGenerate."



John

Were you high when you wrote this nonsensical gibberish?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Ok. Sorry. "ToE" is sometimes Theory of Everything. And I've never used, and rarely read ToE to speak of the Theory of Evolution. Same with ID. I've never spoke of "intelligent design." So forgive me for not connecting the dots. My bad.



John
It takes two to tango.

I just wrote that in another thread. It was as much my assumption that you were familiar with the abbreviations that led to the misunderstanding as it was your unfamiliarity. So I have to apologize.
My explanation is that I frequent the Evolution vs. Creationism forum (where this OP might have been better placed) as much as Religious Debates. Over there, ToE, ID, DI or AiG are considered common knowledge.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Were you high when you wrote this nonsensical gibberish?

1707488597937.png



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
My explanation is that I frequent the Evolution vs. Creationism forum (where this OP might have been better placed) as much as Religious Debates. Over there, ToE, ID, DI or AiG are considered common knowledge.

Since Professor Yuval Harari uses the phrase "intelligent design" throughout his discussions of evolution, I'll use our slight detour as the launching pad into the primary idea I wanted to pursue in this thread:

The implication has been that, no matter what their efforts and achievements, Sapiens are incapable of breaking free of their biologically determined limits. . . But as the twenty-first century unfolds, this is no longer true: Homo sapiens is transcending those limits. It is now beginning to break the laws of natural selection, replacing them with the laws of intelligent design.​
Professor Yuval Noah Harari, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, p. 397.​

That's a pretty powerful claim which parallels Richard Dawkins' own similarly powerful claim:

We are built as gene machines and cultured as meme machines, but we have the power to turn against our creators. We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators.​

Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene, p. 200-201.​

This idea that "we" (modern homo-sapiens) transcend genes and memes segues into the heart and soul of Sir Karl Popper's most brilliant proof of the non-factuality of NeoDarwinism and scientific-materialism:

It is clear that this epiphenomenalist view is unsatisfactory. It admits the existence of a world 2 [human consciousness], but denies it any biological function. It therefore cannot explain, in Darwinian terms, the evolution of world 2 [consciousness]. And it is forced to deny what is plainly a most important fact – the tremendous impact of this evolution . . . upon world 1 [the physical world].’​
Karl Popper, The Mind Body Problem, from David Miller’s Popper Selections, p. 274 (brackets mine).​

Popper notes that the NeoDarwinian worldview is founded on the idea that evolution occurs without any intelligent design-oriented guidance from a thoughtful (sentient or sapient) designer. He terms this physical/biological world of random activities "world 1." His "world 2" is the world of conscious-cognition and activity as it exist in the realm of homo sapiens' conscious thought, such that when Professor Harari claims that now, in the twenty-first century, we can be sure that homo sapiens thinking has broken free of the laws of natural selection, he, Harari, is pointing out that homo sapiens are now able to design and create products of the physical/biological world which not only transcend the design characteristics come from that physical/biological world (Popper's world 1), but, most importantly, homo sapiens out do natural selection by means of thoughts (Popper's world 2), which don't function by the random dictates of Darwinian natural selection. Popper explains this decisive point in a footnote to his discussion with John Eccles in the dialogue section of their joint book The Self and Its Brain, p. 544 (brackets mine):

One of my main points about the body-mind problem is this. Even though World 2 [states of consciousness] may have emerged from World 1 [the physical world], it must have become to a considerable extent independent of World 1, for in a critical discussion it must orientate itself on World 3 [objective content of thought] standards – say on logic – rather than on World 1. If it were only an epiphenomenon of World 1, then our beliefs would all be illusions and on equal terms with other illusions; and this would hold for all “isms”, including epiphenomenalism and the theory of natural selection. It thus turns out that materialism reinforced by the theory of natural selection is a metaphysical theory which cannot be refuted; but it also cannot be rationally upheld because, from its own point of view, all such metaphysical views are epiphenomenal illusions and thus equivalent.​

As noted earlier in the thread, Popper is a card-carrying member of the very thought-collective he fatally deconstructs in his statement above. So, following Ludwik Fleck's 5 points, Popper uses language that may be difficult to parse (see Fleck's point 4) when he literally proves, logically, the utter and complete failings of his own preferred worldview. When he says that natural selection is a theory which can't be refuted, his correct logic is that that is because it's a tautology, which, tautologies, are irrefutable since they don't really say anything but rather imply something is what it is because it is (which goes to Fleck's 1st point).

After pointing out that the belief that natural selection created the human mind "naturally," according to the laws of natural selection, is merely a tautology, Popper thrusts the knife in by noting that even the tautological belief that natural selection is the process through which the human mind arose must itself be an "illusion" according to the very laws of natural selection since according to the dictates and facts of natural selection, what Popper calls "epiphenomenalism" is impossible.

Popper's "epiphenomenalism" is the concept that human thinking, if it actually comes solely from physical/biological processes, cannot transcend those processes without breaking the laws of physics. This implies, as Popper, and all NeoDarwinists (to include Harari) are aware, that the scientific acumen of homo sapiens during the twentieth-century factually, logically, put to rest any hope in the NeoDarwinian belief that the human mind is an epiphenomenon (natural product arising from) the physical/biological world.



John
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
Since Professor Yuval Harari uses the phrase "intelligent design" throughout his discussions of evolution, I'll use our slight detour as the launching pad into the primary idea I wanted to pursue in this thread:

The implication has been that, no matter what their efforts and achievements, Sapiens are incapable of breaking free of their biologically determined limits. . . But as the twenty-first century unfolds, this is no longer true: Homo sapiens is transcending those limits. It is now beginning to break the laws of natural selection, replacing them with the laws of intelligent design.​
Professor Yuval Noah Harari, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind, p. 397.​

That's a pretty powerful claim which parallels Richard Dawkins' own similarly powerful claim:

We are built as gene machines and cultured as meme machines, but we have the power to turn against our creators. We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators.​

Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene, p. 200-201.​
Yes, we are going to replace natural selection in multiple ways. 1. by editing our genes, 2. by replacing our biology with technology and 3. (what we have done already for some millennia now) by modifying our behaviour through culture and education.
We also change our environment, which has an indirect influence on the selection.
But you can't deduce from the future to the past.

This idea that "we" (modern homo-sapiens) transcend genes and memes segues into the heart and soul of Sir Karl Popper's most brilliant proof of the non-factuality of NeoDarwinism and scientific-materialism:

It is clear that this epiphenomenalist view is unsatisfactory. It admits the existence of a world 2 [human consciousness], but denies it any biological function. It therefore cannot explain, in Darwinian terms, the evolution of world 2 [consciousness]. And it is forced to deny what is plainly a most important fact – the tremendous impact of this evolution . . . upon world 1 [the physical world].’​
Karl Popper, The Mind Body Problem, from David Miller’s Popper Selections, p. 274 (brackets mine).​

Popper notes that the NeoDarwinian worldview is founded on the idea that evolution occurs without any intelligent design-oriented guidance from a thoughtful (sentient or sapient) designer. He terms this physical/biological world of random activities "world 1." His "world 2" is the world of conscious-cognition and activity as it exist in the realm of homo sapiens' conscious thought, such that when Professor Harari claims that now, in the twenty-first century, we can be sure that homo sapiens thinking has broken free of the laws of natural selection, he, Harari, is pointing out that homo sapiens are now able to design and create products of the physical/biological world which not only transcend the design characteristics come from that physical/biological world (Popper's world 1), but, most importantly, homo sapiens out do natural selection by means of thoughts (Popper's world 2), which don't function by the random dictates of Darwinian natural selection.
That is, again, deducing from the future to the past. Logic doesn't work that way around. A cause has always to be prior to the effect.

Popper explains this decisive point in a footnote to his discussion with John Eccles in the dialogue section of their joint book The Self and Its Brain, p. 544 (brackets mine):

One of my main points about the body-mind problem is this. Even though World 2 [states of consciousness] may have emerged from World 1 [the physical world], it must have become to a considerable extent independent of World 1, for in a critical discussion it must orientate itself on World 3 [objective content of thought] standards – say on logic – rather than on World 1. If it were only an epiphenomenon of World 1, then our beliefs would all be illusions and on equal terms with other illusions; and this would hold for all “isms”, including epiphenomenalism and the theory of natural selection. It thus turns out that materialism reinforced by the theory of natural selection is a metaphysical theory which cannot be refuted; but it also cannot be rationally upheld because, from its own point of view, all such metaphysical views are epiphenomenal illusions and thus equivalent.​
Arguing with logic against facts is a recipe for defeat. The only positive that can come out of it is that you'll learn what was wrong in your logic. Evolution is a fact.
As noted earlier in the thread, Popper is a card-carrying member of the very thought-collective he fatally deconstructs in his statement above. So, following Ludwik Fleck's 5 points, Popper uses language that may be difficult to parse (see Fleck's point 4) when he literally proves, logically, the utter and complete failings of his own preferred worldview. When he says that natural selection is a theory which can't be refuted, his correct logic is that that is because it's a tautology, which, tautologies, are irrefutable since they don't really say anything but rather imply something is what it is because it is (which goes to Fleck's 1st point).

After pointing out that the belief that natural selection created the human mind "naturally," according to the laws of natural selection, is merely a tautology, Popper thrusts the knife in by noting that even the tautological belief that natural selection is the process through which the human mind arose must itself be an "illusion" according to the very laws of natural selection since according to the dictates and facts of natural selection, what Popper calls "epiphenomenalism" is impossible.

Popper's "epiphenomenalism" is the concept that human thinking, if it actually comes solely from physical/biological processes, cannot transcend those processes without breaking the laws of physics. This implies, as Popper, and all NeoDarwinists (to include Harari) are aware, that the scientific acumen of homo sapiens during the twentieth-century factually, logically, put to rest any hope in the NeoDarwinian belief that the human mind is an epiphenomenon (natural product arising from) the physical/biological world.
This is, again, arguing against the facts. What popper is doing is like writing a theoretical pamphlet on why heavier-than-air flight is impossible - while sitting in a Jumbo Jet.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Yes, we are going to replace natural selection in multiple ways. 1. by editing our genes, 2. by replacing our biology with technology and 3. (what we have done already for some millennia now) by modifying our behaviour through culture and education.
We also change our environment, which has an indirect influence on the selection.
But you can't deduce from the future to the past.

Touche. Nice, concise, and accurate summary.

Nevertheless, the idea that you can deduce from the future to the past has been the under-girding of Judeo/Christian thought from the beginning. The entire apparatus of Judeo/Christian theology both posits, and has posited for thousands of years, the idea that: "People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion" (Einstein). "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58).

The idea isn't merely to point out that Judeo/Christian thought often makes points in a mythological sense (Jesus existed before Abraham even though chronologically that seems impossible) that seem prescient if they in fact predicted modern scientific concepts a long time ago. The fact is that not only is every single blind-spot in modern science made transparently clear in Judeo/Christian thought (properly exegeted from scripture and transformed from mythological conceptualization) but as many eminent historians of science point out, there appears to be presuppositions in Judeo/Christian thought without which modern science, say quantum physics, and such, are unthinkable. "How does quantum mechanics today differ from what Bishop George Berkeley told us two centuries ago, "Esse est percipi", to be is to be perceived" (John Wheeler, At Home in the Universe, p. 120).

As Karl Popper and other's note, Bishop Berkely stated the basics of quantum physics hundreds of years ago, but in a theological context, such that theological concepts propounded by men like him and Kant are, and Popper says this, the very impetus for the development of quantum physics. When materialistic scientists set out to prove, through experimentation, that Berkeley and Kant's belief that things don't exist when they're not being perceived, simply can't be true, they instead came to realize how true and prescient Berkeley and Kant's theological speculation turns out to be:

Let me put it this way. We know for a fact that long before Kant started to philosophize he was dedicated, simply as a Christian, to the belief that the empirical world of time and space and material objects, within which everything is evanescent and everything perishes, is something that exists only for us mortals in our present life; that "outside" this world there is another, so to say infinitely more "important', realm of existence which is timeless and spaceless, and in which the beings are not material objects. Now it is as if he then said to himself: "How can these things be so? What can be the nature of time and space and material objects if they obtain only in the world of human beings? Could it be, given that they characterize only the world of experience and nothing else, that they are characteristics, or preconditions, of experience, and nothing else?" In other words, Kant's philosophy is a fully worked out analysis of what needs to be the case for what he believed already to be true.​
Bryan Magee, Confessions of a Philosopher, p. 249, 250.​

Every single blind-spot in materialism and atheism is hiding truths and facts from the Neo-Darwinist and atheists, truths, facts, and scientific-realities that Jews and Christians have known, and been teaching, literally, for thousands of years. Take the intro Richard Dawkins gives to Jeff Hawkins' recent book:

It is the glory of the human cerebral cortex that it -----unique among all animals and unprecedented in all geological time ---has the power to defy the dictates of the selfish genes. We can enjoy sex without procreation. We can devote our lives to philosophy, mathematics, poetry, astrophysics, music, geology, or the warmth of human love, in defiance of the old [reptile] brain's genetic urging that these are a waste of time ---time that "should" be spent fighting rivals and pursuing multiple sexual partners: "As I see it, we have a profound choice to make. It is a choice between favoring the old brain or favoring the new brain. More specifically, do we want our future to be driven by the processes that got us here, namely, natural selection, competition, and the drive of the selfish genes? Or, do we want our future to be driven by intelligence and its desire to understand the world?"​
Richard Dawkins, introducing Jeff Hawkins, One Thousand Brains: A New Theory of Intelligence (bracket mine, based on earlier comment in intro. Last quotation is Dawkins quoting Hawkins).
Anyone who's been to Sunday School once or twice in their lifetime is aware that what Richard Dawkins and Jeff Hawkins are hocking above, as though it's new and profound, has been taught in churches and synagogues for thousands of years (put off the flesh and focus on moral truth, love for God and one's fellow man), thus proving the power of Ludwik Fleck's insight concerning how thought-collectives deal (or don't) with concepts their worldview can't digest:

(1) A contradiction to the system appears unthinkable. (2) What does not fit into the system remains unseen; (3) alternatively, if it is noticed, either it is kept secret, or (4) laborious efforts are made to explain an exception in terms that do not contradict the system. (5) Despite the legitimate claims of contradictory views, one tends to see, describe, or even illustrate those circumstances which corroborate current views and thereby give them substance.​
Ludwik Fleck, Genesis and Development of a Scientific Fact (p. 27). Kindle Edition.​

It's unthinkable to the Neo-Darwinist that human thought transcends the material arrow of time. It's unthinkable that the human mind is an immaterial soul with an existence as real, more real, than any material thing. And yet the fact that Jews and Christians have believed and taught these concepts is the very impetus for their existence in modern science in concepts like those found in the most modern scientific thought that's ever existed, quantum physics.

When Aspect and his team performed the experiment and tallied the results they discovered that the angles of polarization were indeed correlated in a way that indicated the photons were instantaneously connected with one another, and this was a mind-boggling finding. It meant that some of our most cherished and accepted notions about reality are in error. . . However, what was all the more astounding was that the Aspect experiment - an experiment which most assuredly changed our understanding of reality as much as the revelations of Copernicus or Darwin - went almost completely unnoticed by the mass media.​
Michael Talbot, Mysticism and the New Physics, p. 143.​

Alain Aspect used sound science to show that communication can occur at speeds faster than the speed of light. As Talbot notes, the mass media yawned. For good reason. Faster than light communication implies space, time, and the traversing of both, are not what they appear. The fact that scientific-materialists barely blinked when the Aspect experiment destroyed the commonsense view of the passage through, and of, time and space, justifies Ludwik Fleck's first four points.



John
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
Nevertheless, the idea that you can deduce from the future to the past has been the under-girding of Judeo/Christian thought from the beginning. The entire apparatus of Judeo/Christian theology both posits, and has posited for thousands of years, the idea that: "People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion" (Einstein quoted in Michio Kaku's, Hyperspace, p. 234). "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58).
Only if you believe in the B-hypothesis of time. If it is true, the universe is deterministic, which precludes free will (and divine intervention). It's the clockwork universe many deists believed in.
I don't believe in free will or divine intervention, so I wouldn't care, but I think that the evidence for true randomness of quantum events points to an open future.
Every single blind-spot in materialism and atheism is hiding truths and facts from the Neo-Darwinist and atheists, truths, facts, and scientific-realities that Jews and Christians have known, and been teaching, literally, for thousands of years. Take the intro Richard Dawkins gives to Jeff Hawkins' recent book where Hawkins attempts to explain human consciousness:

It is the glory of the human cerebral cortex that it -----unique among all animals and unprecedented in all geological time ---has the power to defy the dictates of the selfish genes. We can enjoy sex without procreation. We can devote our lives to philosophy, mathematics, poetry, astrophysics, music, geology, or the warmth of human love, in defiance of the old [reptile] brain's genetic urging that these are a waste of time ---time that "should" be spent fighting rivals and pursuing multiple sexual partners: "As I see it, we have a profound choice to make. It is a choice between favoring the old brain or favoring the new brain. More specifically, do we want our future to be driven by the processes that got us here, namely, natural selection, competition, and the drive of the selfish genes? Or, do we want our future to be driven by intelligence and its desire to understand the world?"​
Richard Dawkins, introducing Jeff Hawkins, One Thousand Brains: A New Theory of Intelligence (bracket mine, based on earlier comment in intro. Last quotation is Dawkins quoting Hawkins).
Anyone who's been to Sunday School once or twice in their lifetime is aware that what Richard Dawkins and Jeff Hawkins are hocking above, as though it's new and profound, has been taught in churches and synagogues for thousands of years (put off the flesh and focus on moral truth, love for God and one's fellow man),
Especially the "We can enjoy sex without procreation" part. (I guess - never went to Sunday school, it's not a thing over here.)
You can see from that little part already that Dawkins and Hawkins are not talking about the same as priests and rabbis have. The former talk about "can", being enabled by modern science, while the later talk about "must" - because the body is evil.
And the former, of course, emphasize the processes that brought us to this point, evolution and science.
It's unthinkable to the Neo-Darwinist that human thought transcends the material arrow of time. It's unthinkable that the human mind is an immaterial soul with an existence as real, more real, than any material thing. And yet the fact that Jews and Christians have believed and taught these concepts is the very impetus for their existence in modern science in concepts like those found in the most modern scientific thought that's ever existed, quantum physics.
And yet, there aren't only religious people in quantum science. One just has to be willing to leave the traditional notion of continuous reality, time, locality and causality behind, and to "shut up and calculate".
When Aspect and his team performed the experiment and tallied the results they discovered that the angles of polarization were indeed correlated in a way that indicated the photons were instantaneously connected with one another, and this was a mind-boggling finding. It meant that some of our most cherished and accepted notions about reality are in error. . . However, what was all the more astounding was that the Aspect experiment - an experiment which most assuredly changed our understanding of reality as much as the revelations of Copernicus or Darwin - went almost completely unnoticed by the mass media.​
Michael Talbot, Mysticism and the New Physics, p. 143.​

Alain Aspect used sound science to show that communication can occur at speeds faster than the speed of light.
Nope.
You can't communicate via entanglement. What Aspect showed was that either causality or locality must be false on a quantum level. (Though there are still some gaps in the theory that allow for global hidden variables.)
And even the seeming paradoxa disappear when the experiments are viewed under the de Broglie/Bohm pilot wave interpretation. (Though that interpretation isn't useful for all other phenomena.)
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Arguing with logic against facts is a recipe for defeat. The only positive that can come out of it is that you'll learn what was wrong in your logic. Evolution is a fact.

We agree on so many fundamental levels. Yes, evolution is a fact. And yes arguing against facts is a recipe for falsehood. Which is why I quoted Popper. He points out an undeniable fact that's hard to fit into traditional asymmetrical theories of time and evolution. In a materialistic evolutionary process that's based on the asymmetry between the past and the future, the existence of the human mind, and all its abilities and proven potentialities, must evolve as a product of the biology, the genes, of the human body. That's a fact Jack. :)

But as Popper shows in his three worlds argument, that would make it factually impossible for the human mind to do things we know it does. To paraphrase something you said earlier, what the human mind undeniably does, is like a person getting out of a supersonic jet he thinks is going too slow and pushing on the wing to speed things up. What it took biological evolution billions of years to do, the human mind is now doing in time that doesn't even register as a twinkling of an eye in cosmic or evolutionary time. Evolution is the jetliner. And human mind is supposed to be the passenger. It really is as though the human mind got out of the supersonic jet ---evolution---- and with one mighty heave, quadrupled the speed of the jetliner.o_O

Knowing this is all factual, Popper stated unequivocally that though he's a member in good standing of the materialist scientists of the world, he feels he can't, with a straight face, continue to go to the meetings, and glad-hand the true-believers, knowing he's become a heretic in his own mind since he knows the thought-collective he loves is thoroughly ensconced in all five of Ludwik Fleck's points concerning the power to pull a veil over one's worldview in order to live safely and soundly within a lie.



John
 
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