The Shabbat Thread

[Harel13]

...... he is "Immanuel".

No need Deeje, I was being sarcastic. If you've heard one Jesussian proof once, you've heard it a thousand times.

 

[Deeje]

No need Deeje, I was being sarcastic. If you've heard one Jesussian proof once, you've heard it a thousand times.

Have you ever really investigated the scriptural credentials this Jesus Christ...or are you relying on those who had very solid reasons to deny him as Messiah?....not good reasons or scriptural reasons but personal reasons to build a wall of denial that has endured two millenniums.

What did the Jews who followed Jesus see that their national leaders did not? Its not like they had any real grounds to dismiss him other than the fact that he exposed them as self-righteous frauds, teaching the commands of men, not God.

Reading through Jewish history in the Bible, how can you be so sure that Jesus wasn't who he said he was, and that those religious frauds, true to form, were just doing what they had always done? Help me to understand why the Jews rejected him then and why they still do to this very day......on what scriptural grounds? You must be well schooled in this.....

 

[Harel13]

can we stick to the script please

This is sad, I'm afraid to say. You doubt the veracity of our laws and then say I don't "stick to the script"?
I'm going to just present some proof of the Oral Law, which in turn will answer some of your questions on Shabbat, and please refrain from debating this as this is the Q&A section. If you wish to debate the matter, you cans tart another thread on that subject.

Let's go back to the first two verses you quoted:
"So Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances"
"And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord"

Notice Moses wrote down the words of God but didn't write down the ordinances! Moses clearly didn't write down everything God told him.
Furthermore, of the things he did write in the Torah, many of them are vague. For example:

• "When a man taketh a wife, and marrieth her, then it cometh to pass, if she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some unseemly thing in her, that he writeth her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house" (Deut. 24:1) - this verse talks about both marriage and divorce, but doesn't actually explain how one marries or what a "bill of divorcement" is.
  
• "...Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk." (Exo. 23:19) - quite understandable in the English translation, but very confusing in Hebrew - "לא תבשל גדי בחלב אמו" - "Lo tevashel g'di bechalev imo" - what do the letters חלב mean? They could either mean "chelev", which is a type of fat, or "chalav" which means milk. Both are equally possible.
  
• "And thou shalt write them upon the door-posts of thy house, and upon thy gates" - this is what we call a "mezuzah", but it's not really defined how exactly one is supposed to write the text on the door-posts and gates. And in case you think "oh, use common sense!", right in the same chapter it says: "and the curse, if ye shall not hearken unto the commandments of the LORD your God" - we shall be cursed if we don't follow God's law. Maybe my "common sense interpretation" isn't good enough for God. I really don't know.

Remember, none of this is up for debate in this section.

Therefore:

Yes, I have read the replies of the Jewish posters here because I want to hear it straight from the horse's mouth, so that I do not misunderstand your beliefs and how you came by all the extensions added to them. That is why I mentioned "indoctrination" because no one in their right mind could practice the oral traditions of modern Judaism without cringing at the more ridiculous aspects of it. It appears as though you have to be taught to ignore common sense. (which I believe is all God wanted his people to employ in the first place.)

Explained already.

LOL...that is why we have a conscience. Our actions are not only judged by God but by our own interpretation of right and wrong. If your perceptions of right and wrong are distorted, (by being taught wrong perceptions) then our conscience will not guide us....we become enslaved to what others perceive as correct, not necessarily what God says is correct.

Do you want me to LOL back at you? Where does it say that we should interpret as we see fit? And as you can see in our modern society, "common sense" has changed. Homosexuality is okay, abortion is okay, assisted suicide is okay, polyamory is okay, etc.

There is being prepared according to God's word....and there is being brainwashed into believing things that are simply not true. If the rules are not in scripture, then there is no reason to follow them. As Isaiah said...that is following the commands of men as if it was from scripture.....Jewish tradition goes way beyond anything that is commanded in scripture.

Explained already.

I think we get the picture......"straining at gnats whilst gulping down camels" is such a good description of what Jesus observed in the religious leaders of his day. Dotting all the "i's" and crossing all the "t's" is good, but creating way more dialogue with the necessity to dot more "i's" and cross more "t's" than what was in the original manuscript, creates a whole new 'movie.'

Because wreaking havoc in the Temple makes much more sense...

You mean they didn't give you the memo?

No. And I'm sure you know what happened when we didn't get the memo.

creating rituals around equally created traditions....most of these tradition had nothing to do with any of God's stated laws.

Not true. As I've already shown that there is an Oral Tradition.

I see just fear....where there is fear, there can be no real love. The fear of displeasing God has nothing to do with morbid fear. I see in the strictness of the application of these rules...that going to the nth degree so as not to overstep by even a fraction of an inch.....to be prompted by the wrong kind of fear. That is not the kind of fear we should ever have of a loving parent surely?

This answers the verses from Psalms, how exactly?
And I'm afraid that NT quotes don't mean much to me in terms of how to worship God.

Just out of curiosity, if a Jew joins the military and his nation goes to war and there are Jews on the opposing side, will a Jew feel a certain betrayal because he may have killed his brother over a political issue?

"If"? This actually happened over history. Yes, I believe Jews felt bad about the situation. I think there are even some descriptions written by Jews about such experiences. My grandfather's grandfather (who was murdered in the Holocaust, but that's not the point of the story) was a POW guard in the Austrian army during WWI and some of the prisoners were Russian Jews and he did the best he could to help them out in. And there were opposite situations in which Jews killed other Jews during battle. There are also some Jewish jokes on the subject, but not the point.

How far does your fear of displeasing God actually go?

What does this have to do with the previous question?

No it doesn't.

This is directed at what in what I said?

Doesn't the Creator of all of us have the ability to read our hearts?

I'm just going over to my neighbor now to murder him. But I feel bad about it. Does that mean I'm clear in the eyes of God?

Or perhaps Jesus was exactly who he claimed to be but the Jewish leaders of his day were more occupied with their traditions than actually listening to him? Didn't they just emulate their forefathers in ignoring the prophets that God sent to correct them? (Matthew ch 23) Were they acting out of character?
They were serial covenant breakers and yet so many never question the old ways and the new interpretations of the old ways....they just slavishly accept that they must do these things because they are told they must. But again I have to ask...who said?

The new covenant was not going to be like the old one......so what if that was the one Jesus instituted and you guys are standing behind a wall of denial? Maybe God is waiting for you to come to your senses and see that common sense was all He required in the keeping of his commands......how many hoops do you really need to jump through to please such a loving Father?

Let's not turn this thread into another Jesus v Pharisees thread.

 

[Harel13]

Have you ever really investigated the scriptural credentials this Jesus Christ...or are you relying on those who had very solid reasons to deny him as Messiah?....not good reasons or scriptural reasons but personal reasons to build a wall of denial that has endured two millenniums.

What did the Jews who followed Jesus see that their national leaders did not? Its not like they had any real grounds to dismiss him other than the fact that he exposed them as self-righteous frauds, teaching the commands of men, not God.

Seriously, let's not start another Jesus is truth and rabbis are liars thread, not here. Thank you.

 

[Harel13]

Have you ever really investigated the scriptural credentials this Jesus Christ...or are you relying on those who had very solid reasons to deny him as Messiah?

Do you mean have I done so "objectively"? No. Yes, I rely on our sages' reasoning. But I've also looked at their reasoning and read up on the different reasons.
Have you ever investigated those reasons against? I assume not, because you've clearly never investigated the Jewish Oral Tradition...

What did the Jews who followed Jesus see that their national leaders did not?

You're welcome to start a thread on how cults work.

Reading through Jewish history in the Bible, how can you be so sure that Jesus wasn't who he said he was, and that those religious frauds, true to form, were just doing what they had always done? Help me to understand why the Jews rejected him then and why they still do to this very day......on what scriptural grounds? You must be well schooled in this.....

Have you never checked this out? If so, I'm quite surprised. Welcome to start a thread on the subject of why Jews reject Jesus.

 

[pearl]

Remember, none of this is up for debate in this section.

Apparently, debating is ok if one disguises it in the form of a question!

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Didn't want to drag things out on this thread.

Sorry, it is just such an interesting subject. I would really like to see some proof.

 

[Harel13]

Sorry, it is just such an interesting subject. I would really like to see some proof.

I agree. Which is why I set up the other thread. So far, not much luck on how the calculations were made.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I agree. Which is why I set up the other thread. So far, not much luck on how the calculations were made.

Thank you. I cannot reply in the Jewish DIR because I do not identify as Jewish. I will not bother you again. I just think something like this would have been published somewhere so people could find it. Oh, I do have one last question. We are around the year 5780 in the Jewish calendar. Is that supposed to be dated from the creation activities described in Genesis. The Jewish belief is that it has been 5780 years since the earth was created? There must have been some calculations used to determine that period of time. P;ease share your wisdom on this. You have been a great help to me and I thank you very much.

 

[Harel13]

I will not bother you again.

It's no bother.

I just think something like this would have been published somewhere so people could find it.

You are free to start another thread and I may post there. I just wanted another Jewish opinion on the calendar issue.

The Jewish belief is that it has been 5780 years since the earth was created?

Since Adam was created.

 

[Deeje]

Do you mean have I done so "objectively"? No.

So you’ve never investigated the possibility that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah? I’m surprised given the history of Jewish leadership down through Biblical history. With that track record....how can you trust them?

Yes, I rely on our sages' reasoning. But I've also looked at their reasoning and read up on the different reasons.
Have you ever investigated those reasons against? I assume not, because you've clearly never investigated the Jewish Oral Tradition...

I have investigated the Biblical history of the Jewish nation, right from father Abraham’s bringing forth the seed of the promise and hs willingness to offer up this precious son.....to their their release from slavery in Egypt, and up to their rejection of Jesus as the Christ.....it’s not a very inspiring story because it’s ‘warts and all’.....sadly, more warts than any good conduct. I have no interest in invented oral traditions.....They tell their own story to me.

You're welcome to start a thread on how cults work.

On what grounds did the religious leaders reject Jesus? Was it because he did not fulfil the messianic prophesies.....or because he did not fit the leadership’s interpretation of them? Their history does not fill one with confidence.....and if they misled their nation, what does that mean for Jews today?

Have you never checked this out? If so, I'm quite surprised. Welcome to start a thread on the subject of why Jews reject Jesus.

Perhaps I will. We need to examine this issue because it is important for Jews as well as Gentiles to see if Jesus did fulfil the prophesies written or whether the Jews are correct.....that he was a false Messiah.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

It's no bother.

You are free to start another thread and I may post there. I just wanted another Jewish opinion on the calendar issue.

Since Adam was created.

Thank you once again. 5780years since Adam. There must have been a great deal of research to come up with the date of Adam's creation. I am truly amazed and wish some of the supporting research was available.

 

[Harel13]

So you’ve never investigated the possibility that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah? I’m surprised given the history of Jewish leadership down through Biblical history. With that track record....how can you trust them?



I have investigated the Biblical history of the Jewish nation, right from father Abraham’s bringing forth the seed of the promise and hs willingness to offer up this precious son.....to their their release from slavery in Egypt, and up to their rejection of Jesus as the Christ.....it’s not a very inspiring story because it’s ‘warts and all’.....sadly, more warts than any good conduct. I have no interest in invented oral traditions.....They tell their own story to me.



On what grounds did the religious leaders reject Jesus? Was it because he did not fulfil the messianic prophesies.....or because he did not fit the leadership’s interpretation of them? Their history does not fill one with confidence.....and if they misled their nation, what does that mean for Jews today?



Perhaps I will. We need to examine this issue because it is important for Jews as well as Gentiles to see if Jesus did fulfil the prophesies written or whether the Jews are correct.....that he was a false Messiah.

Welcome to take all of this to another thread. If you have more Shabbat-related questions, feel free to ask them here.

 

[Harel13]

Thank you once again. 5780years since Adam. There must have been a great deal of research to come up with the date of Adam's creation. I am truly amazed and wish some of the supporting research was available.

I'm pretty sure google will easily pull up the calculations. They're not too complicated: You take the lifetimes of Genesis together with the year every next generation was born and you add that together. Than you take the forefathers' years, that'll bring you down to the Exodus. From there it's a little more tricky because the calculations rely on how many years were the Israelites in Egypt which is not completely clear from the text. There should be the correct calculation somewhere. From then on you have the rest of the calculations of the Bible until more modern history (the last few centuries of the BCE) and from then on you add the CE years.

 

[Tumah]

That's cool.....and a good thing too. No sense in the "pagans" being stoned to death as well....
But then again they know that there is something wrong with this picture,
and want nothing to do with a "God" that threatens with fire and brimstone.

See, so everyone's a winner.

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

See, so everyone's a winner.

No, the innocent don't escape the fire and brimstone either.

 

[Tumah]

So, would the first day of unleavened bread follow the same rules as a sabbath? Such as no work and no travel?

The first (and second in the diaspora) and last (and the day after the last) follow the same rules as on the Sabbath with the exception of the Sabbath-prohibited activities that are needed for food, which are permitted on the Pilgrimages (see Ex. 12:16).

 

[Tumah]

This was helpful in my understanding of an incident related to me, as follows.
An Orthodox woman's small child refused to or couldn't walk for what ever reason. She pushed her with her foot along the sidewalk until within the 'distance' to carry her and then picked her up. The eiruv is quite more complex.
What Is An Eruv? | My Jewish Learning

Creating an eruv is complex. Using the eruv isn't complex at all. I assume that in your story, the lady had walked outside the eruv with her child. A somewhat nicer method would have been to carry the child for about 6 feet and the put the child down, then pick the child up again and carry another 6 feet until reaching the eruv.

 

[Tumah]

No, the innocent don't escape the fire and brimstone either.

Is that true?

 

[WhyIsThatSo]

Is that true?

" Now kill every little boy, and kill every woman who has slept with a man. But keep for yourselves every little girl
who is a virgin" ( Numbers 31:17-18 )

how nice