The Situation in Egypt

[Bismillah]

the MB is a global organisation with branches in over 60 countries so they are no mugs,i really hope though that Egypt gets the right deal and it turns good for them.

Again you fail to understand the fundamental differences between the different MB organizations. Then again that wouldn't fit your agenda right?

 

[England my lionheart]

Simple, people use the MB as a red herring to implicitly provide support for Mubarak's current regime. It is a very dishonest play on words.

I dislike both and would not wish either on anyone,ones the frying pan and the others the fire.

Let alone all this fear mongering of the MB is very irrational and based on off shoots in places such as Gaza which have no relevance to the Egyptian MB.

No relevance,really,the MB openly support Hamas,the MB if they got to power would certainly have some relevance.

The MB is a legitimate political party and it is one of many different facets of Egyptian society rejecting Mubarak's rule.

They are,hopefully a very small facet

 

[England my lionheart]

Again you fail to understand the fundamental differences between the different MB organizations. Then again that wouldn't fit your agenda right?

What differences,what agenda

 

[Bismillah]

I dislike both and would not wish either on anyone,ones the frying pan and the others the fire.

You have yet to prove that statement.

No relevance,really,the MB openly support Hamas,the MB if they got to power would certainly have some relevance.

I don't know how much a person has to reiterate one fact over and over again. Really I am tired of it, if you are this stubborn then I am finished trying to even discuss the matter further.

They are,hopefully a very small facet

doubtful.

What differences,what agenda

The very small fact that they have renounced violence as opposed to the MB in Gaza. That and your attempts to project them as an end all be all for Egypt.

 

[Kathryn]

.

Simple, people use the MB as a red herring to implicitly provide support for Mubarak's current regime. It is a very dishonest play on words

I disagree with this VEHEMENTLY.

I don't think that many people in the west have been AWARE of just how oppressive Mubarak's regime has been. Now that we are aware of the depth of the problems in Egypt, I don't personally know of anyone who is supporting Mubarak's modus operandum OR his continuance in power.

That doesn't mean we turn our head or shrug off other unsavory possibilities. And the MB doesn't have a sterling reputation.

Correct me if I am wrong - and I hope I am. Does the MB have, as one of it's goals, the restoration of the Caliphate?

Does the MB want to install a system of government based on Sharia law in this Caliphate?

 

[LuisDantas]

I believe Abibi is implying that various Muslim Brotherhood organizations do exist, and what holds true for those of a certain country do not necessarily applies to those of other countries.

Specifically, a certain MB might conceivably be politically moderate and even repressed, while others might perhaps be involved with questionable, dangerous activities.

It makes sense, although I lack actual data. "Muslim Brotherhood" is after all a very generic name, and Muslims live in very diverse political realities worldwide.

I am not personally looking forward to the possible birth of a new Muslim state, but to the extent that the people of Egypt may desire one I see no point in artificially and forcefully attempting to stop them. It is painfully obvious that Mubarak must renounce, let them deal with it as peacefully as possible.

 

[LuisDantas]

Correct me if I am wrong - and I hope I am. Does the MB still have, as one of it's goals, the establishment of a Caliphate which reaches from Spain to roughly Indonesia?

Does the MB want to install a system of government based on Sharia law in this Caliphate?

How different is that from the desire of many Bahais and even Christians of likewise establishing theocracies of some kind?

 

[England my lionheart]

You have yet to prove that statement.

I hope that doesn't happen,the proof will be self evident

I don't know how much a person has to reiterate one fact over and over again. Really I am tired of it, if you are this stubborn then I am finished trying to even discuss the matter further.

Says a lot this answer

doubtful.

Indeed we will

The very small fact that they have renounced violence as opposed to the MB in Gaza. That and your attempts to project them as an end all be all for Egypt.

They did,at least thats something

 

[Kathryn]

How different is that from the desire of many Bahais and even Christians of likewise establishing theocracies of some kind?

No different. I personally don't like mixing religion and politics.

Are there any Christian groups with the scope of the MB pushing for a theocracy anywhere?

 

[dust1n]

Simple, people use the MB as a red herring to implicitly provide support for Mubarak's current regime. It is a very dishonest play on words.

What people?

Let alone all this fear mongering of the MB is very irrational and based on off shoots in places such as Gaza which have no relevance to the Egyptian MB.

I tend to agree, if you are referring to a portion of the news (and not just Western news). I haven't seen anyone here personally fear-monger, but then again, I haven't read all of the pages of this thread.

The MB is a legitimate political party and it is one of many different facets of Egyptian society rejecting Mubarak's rule.

No argument there. I would just much rather be getting some kind of information about who people wanting to rule them after Mubarak is out. I've been trying to written info about al-Hizb al-distouri or Hizb al-Ghad, but there is basically no information available in English regarding these parties.

 

[dust1n]

Thats true,about 20% ish,they are though the best equipped organisationally,the MB is a global organisation with branches in over 60 countries so they are no mugs,i really hope though that Egypt gets the right deal and it turns good for them.

That will be up to how much pressure and active participation Egyptians continue to put on and in there government.

 

[dust1n]

No different. I personally don't like mixing religion and politics.

Are there any Christian groups with the scope of the MB pushing for a theocracy anywhere?

Um.. yes?

The Lord's Resistance Army (also Lord's Resistance Movement or Lakwena Part Two) is a sectarian religious and military group based in northern Uganda.


The group was formed in 1987 and is engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government in what is now one of Africa's longest-running conflicts. It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the "spokesperson" of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Holy Spirit, which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.[3]


The group is based on apocalyptic Christianity[4][5][6][7][8][9][10], but also is influenced[11] by a blend of Mysticism[12] and traditional religion,[13] and claims to be establishing a theocratic state based on the Ten Commandments and Acholi tradition.[3][14][15]
The LRA is accused

of widespread human rights violations, including murder, abduction, mutilation, sexual enslavement of women and children and forcing children to participate in hostilities.[16]


The LRA operates mainly in northern Uganda and also in parts of Sudan, Central African Republic and DR Congo.[17][18] The LRA is currently proscribed as a terrorist organization by the United States.[19][20]

Lord's Resistance Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[England my lionheart]

I believe Abibi is implying that various Muslim Brotherhood organizations do exist, and what holds true for those of a certain country do not necessarily applies to those of other countries.

They do though,its called Shariah

Specifically, a certain MB might conceivably be politically moderate and even repressed, while others might perhaps be involved with questionable, dangerous activities.

There are moderates in the Egyptian MB,there are also the other kind

It makes sense, although I lack actual data. "Muslim Brotherhood" is after all a very generic name, and Muslims live in very diverse political realities worldwide.

Thet do,like Yemen and Sudan

I am not personally looking forward to the possible birth of a new Muslim state, but to the extent that the people of Egypt may desire one I see no point in artificially and forcefully attempting to stop them. It is painfully obvious that Mubarak must renounce, let them deal with it as peacefully as possible.

I agree,at the end of the day its their choice as it should be

 

[Kathryn]

Um.. yes?

The Lord's Resistance Army (also Lord's Resistance Movement or Lakwena Part Two) is a sectarian religious and military group based in northern Uganda.


The group was formed in 1987 and is engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government in what is now one of Africa's longest-running conflicts. It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the "spokesperson" of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Holy Spirit, which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.[3]


The group is based on apocalyptic Christianity[4][5][6][7][8][9][10], but also is influenced[11] by a blend of Mysticism[12] and traditional religion,[13] and claims to be establishing a theocratic state based on the Ten Commandments and Acholi tradition.[3][14][15]
The LRA is accused

of widespread human rights violations, including murder, abduction, mutilation, sexual enslavement of women and children and forcing children to participate in hostilities.[16]


The LRA operates mainly in northern Uganda and also in parts of Sudan, Central African Republic and DR Congo.[17][18] The LRA is currently proscribed as a terrorist organization by the United States.[19][20]

Lord's Resistance Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for the information. I'm opposed to them too, then.

Like I said, I don't care much for theocracies - of any sort.

 

[England my lionheart]

That will be up to how much pressure and active participation Egyptians continue to put on and in there government.

I think theres a few more days of bargaining to be done yet

 

[Kathryn]

To be fair though, Dust1n - the Lord's Resistance Army doesn't have anywhere NEAR the scope or influence of the Muslim Brotherhood. I did ask for examples of groups who claim to be Christian based and who are as widespread and powerful as the Muslim Brotherhood.

From the source you gave me:
The LRA's ideology is disputed amongst academics.[23][25] While most academics and media outlets regard LRA as primarily a Christian militia,[4][5][6][7][8][9][10] the LRA reportedly evokes Acholi nationalism on occasion,[26] but the sincerity of this behavior is considered dubious by some observers.[27][28] During its brief alliance with the Muslim country of Sudan it also claimed to be Islamic as well, an apparent contradiction.[29]


Also - their numbers are tiny compared to the Muslim Brotherhood. They are very poorly organized as well, and poorly funded. Hardly any real comparison to the power of the Muslim Brotherhood globally, or even regionally.
Lord's Resistance Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dust1n]

I think theres a few more days of bargaining to be done yet

Aye.. keeping the heat under a politician's feet is a timeless task.

 

[dust1n]

To be fair though, Dust1n - the Lord's Resistance Army doesn't have anywhere NEAR the scope or influence of the Muslim Brotherhood. I did ask for examples of groups who claim to be Christian based and who are as widespread and powerful as the Muslim Brotherhood.

From the source you gave me:
The LRA's ideology is disputed amongst academics.[23][25] While most academics and media outlets regard LRA as primarily a Christian militia,[4][5][6][7][8][9][10] the LRA reportedly evokes Acholi nationalism on occasion,[26] but the sincerity of this behavior is considered dubious by some observers.[27][28] During its brief alliance with the Muslim country of Sudan it also claimed to be Islamic as well, an apparent contradiction.[29]

Or sorry. Most Christians don't use their Christian identity as a uniting force, especially in America. Nationalism seemed to replaced that long, long ago. There is no real cultural identities based off countries in Africa/Middle East and what not. The countries are fairly young and generally switched around. Members in communities do not have the same interests as other members. Islam has traditionally been the cultural identities when it comes to fighting/reforming government, colonial powers, each other.. etc.

 

[Bismillah]

I don't think that many people in the west have been AWARE of just how oppressive Mubarak's regime has been. Now that we are aware of the depth of the problems in Egypt, I don't personally know of anyone who is supporting Mubarak's modus operandum OR his continuance in power.

No I don't understand what is so hard about this simple little concept. Egyptians, all Egyptians, have united to reject the government. They understand the risks and they understand the benefits and they are unified in their rejection of the government. This includes Muslims and Copts, liberals and conservatives, rich and poor. And for people to instead focus and to ridiculously spread propaganda against a legitimate political party is a slap in the face of these protesters. Because it implictily casts doubts on the revolution aspirations and does strengthen the claims of the Egyptian government.

That doesn't mean we turn our head or shrug off other unsavory possibilities. And the MB doesn't have a sterling reputation.

Actually it has a very good reputation in Egypt.

Correct me if I am wrong - and I hope I am. Does the MB have, as one of it's goals, the restoration of the Caliphate?

Sure does.

Does the MB want to install a system of government based on Sharia law in this Caliphate?

Through purely democratically means, in other words it's none of your business ascertaining whats best for other people.

No different. I personally don't like mixing religion and politics.

Are there any Christian groups with the scope of the MB pushing for a theocracy anywhere?

I could care less, the fact is that the MB is committed to democracy and its goals are to be established solely on the will of the people.

 

[Bismillah]

I hope that doesn't happen,the proof will be self evident

You're looking for self-fulfilling prophecies now? That is cute.

Says a lot this answer

No it says nothing. And if you want any legitamicy you might want to support your fear mongering smear campaign with actual evidence of any relevancy between the branches of MB in Gaza and Egypt

They did,at least thats something

England it is not just "something". It is a an utter demolition of your weakly parsed argument.

What people?

The majority of this thread has been in relevance to the MB and a back and forth over hyped of rhetoric of said party.

I tend to agree, if you are referring to a portion of the news (and not just Western news). I haven't seen anyone here personally fear-monger, but then again, I haven't read all of the pages of this thread.

I'm not sure how long you have been reading this thread dust1n, but through out the entire process there have been countless references to the boogeymen in Gaza as a potential outcome in Egypt and an even more idiotic reference to Iran as the outcome of Egypt.

People should understand what they are taking about before they cast into doubt the legitimacy of these protests.

No argument there. I would just much rather be getting some kind of information about who people wanting to rule them after Mubarak is out. I've been trying to written info about al-Hizb al-distouri or Hizb al-Ghad, but there is basically no information available in English regarding these parties.

I posted an article prior about the different parties but as I see it, the MB will be a faction to be rivaled. They are the only opposition party to thrive in Egypt even with bogus elections and I don't see people like El Baradei to have any significant following in the long term if these protests are successful. Simply because the man is an outsider with little to no relevance with the Egyptian populous, certainly not if people like Ayman Nour are having trouble gaining political relevance.