The Situation in Egypt

[Kathryn]

Through purely democratically means, in other words it's none of your business ascertaining whats best for other people.

I could care less, the fact is that the MB is committed to democracy and its goals are to be established solely on the will of the people.

Forty percent of the world's oil is transported through the Suez Canal.

Correct me if I am wrong, but re establishing the Caliphate would seem to include reclaiming all of Israel, as well as Spain, among other areas.

By your own admission, re establishing the Caliphate and establishing Sharia law in it's boundaries are two of the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood.

So - it's well within the rights of other countries to be very concerned with the future government of Egypt.

 

[Bismillah]

Forty percent of the world's oil is transported through the Suez Canal.

Source? And I see that because they posses a land that is strategically important, they should not be allowed to judge for themselves how they would like to be ruled?

Correct me if I am wrong, but re establishing the Caliphate would seem to include reclaiming all of Israel, as well as Spain, among other areas.

No, you are clearly thinking of the word "Caliphate" with a sensationalized meaning spread by Western propagandists. A Caliphate would be strictly impossible to establish in places such as Spain and Israel, by one of its most standard definitions.

They hope to create a Shariah ruled society in Egypt and by such emulation ultimately reunite the Muslim Ummah, a very very long term goal that has no business in places such as Spain, England, or the UK.

It's akin to a Pan-Arabic movement except encompassing all Muslim countries such as Indonesia and Pakistan.

So no none of your business, at all.

 

[Kathryn]

Can you please direct me to information clarifying the Muslim Brotherhood's position on Israel, as well as on trade and banking with non Muslim countries? Surely in all their publications, these two topics are addressed.

Also - a source on how the Muslim Brotherhood defines "Caliphate" would be helpful as well.

 

[Kathryn]

I would appreciate your sourced response to this thread as well, Abibi.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...three-questions-about-muslim-brotherhood.html

Thanks.

 

[Bismillah]

I'm not an expert on the MB, but I can easily cut through the "crap" as it were. I know, for example, when someone takes the idea of a Caliphate and misconstrues it as a world domination type scheme that they do not know what they are talking about.

The party obviously has no favorable view on Israel, but at worst (for Israel) and most likely scenario would be their unwillingness to enforce the continued embargo and collective punishment in Gaza.

Regardless, Egypt will not restrict the 4.5% of oil that flows through its canal because such an idiotic move would strangle the economy.

Let alone that you are starting to view the entire post-revolution government in a monolithic sense, whereas in reality there are may political parties that will have some influence on governmental consensus.

 

[Bismillah]

You are asking questions on Shariah and the Caliphate that are not directly related to the topic. To understand these questions you would have to create a thread about the Shariah system of law.

By the most basic system of Shura though any idea of the Caliphate spreading beyond Muslim lands is impossible.

 

[Bismillah]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/06/opinion/06kristof.html?_r=4

 

[Alceste]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/06/opinion/06kristof.html?_r=4

Have to log in for that. I find this MB obsession as irritating and misplaced as you do. I'm going to call it: the likeliest contenders are el Baradei if the protestors refuse to back down and the US backed Prime Minister if they buckle. The MB will continue to be a well represented minority in parliament.

 

[Kathryn]

You are asking questions on Shariah and the Caliphate that are not directly related to the topic. To understand these questions you would have to create a thread about the Shariah system of law.

By the most basic system of Shura though any idea of the Caliphate spreading beyond Muslim lands is impossible.

I did create a thread asking for more information about the Caliphate and Sharia law, and gave you the link. Hopefully, you'll respond. I am truly trying to learn more about the MB and it's goals regarding the Caliphate and the implementation of Sharia law - in ANY country in which they are active, not just Egypt.

You bring up another good point though - what's the tipping point when it comes to determining what a "Muslim land" is? What about countries in which Islam is growing? When will they be considered a Muslim land by the MB?

 

[Bismillah]

Why and what does this have to do with the organization in Egypt again? You are bearing no relevance and have shown no sources of any supposed Muslim imperialism. Frankly all this rubbish is off topic.

 

[Kathryn]

Why and what does this have to do with the organization in Egypt again? You are bearing no relevance and have shown no sources of any supposed Muslim imperialism. Frankly all this rubbish is off topic.

You truly can't connect the dots? Wow. I think you're smarter than that, frankly.

But I'll spell it out for you. The Muslim Brotherhood is very active in Egypt - heck, it BEGAN in Egypt, and has been outlawed there for many years. It is the world's largest Islamic political organization and the largest opposition group in Egypt.

So I want to more fully understand the goals and objectives of the Muslim Brotherhood - not only for Egypt, but for Muslims throughout the world. And I want to know how these goals correlate with other societies and governments.

Is that really so off topic? I don't think so.

 

[Bismillah]

But I'll spell it out for you.

Go ahead.

The Muslim Brotherhood is very active in Egypt - heck, it BEGAN in Egypt, and has been outlawed there for many years. It is the world's largest Islamic political organization and the largest opposition group in Egypt.

ok

So I want to more fully understand the goals and objectives of the Muslim Brotherhood - not only for Egypt, but for Muslims throughout the world. And I want to know how these goals correlate with other societies and governments.

I think it is off topic when people begin to spout off complete nonsense of the Caliphate in Spain, in fact if I didn't know any better I'd say someone has been watching a pinch of Beck.

Weigel : Glenn Beck and Mitt Romney on the Caliphate

If someone cannot understand the most basic tenants of this organization, can't realize that post-revolution Egypt will NOT be a monolithic MB ruled Caliphate, and other such nonsense then really discussion is pointless.

 

[Kathryn]

How bout you give me a source which spells out the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood when it comes to the Caliphate and Sharia law, like I've been begging for. That should clarify things.

And no, I haven't been watching Beck. I got that terminology from Wikipedia.

 

[Kathryn]

Beliefs


In the group's belief, the Quran and Sunnah constitute a perfect way of life and social and political organization that God has set out for man. Islamic governments must be based on this system and eventually unified in a Caliphate. The Muslim Brotherhood's goal, as stated by Brotherhood founder Hassan al-Banna was to reclaim Islam’s manifest destiny, an empire, stretching from Spain to Indonesia.[2

Muslim Brotherhood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I didn't CLAIM that this is a good definition - I ASKED for a definition and for clarification.

Why don't you help me understand rather than trying to demonize me for asking sincere questions and trying to understand?

 

[Bismillah]

My god Kathryn, this subject you are asking for is not NEW. I have posted the links more than three times in the thread. Seriously this stuff is common knowledge first page of "egyptian MB" will give you the results you are looking for.

Secondly this idea of applying Banna's standard as that of today's MB is unrealistic. This again I have pointed out multiple times.

These threads always relapse into waves of the old questions again being raised, do some basic research.

 

[Kathryn]

And yet we're accused of being suspicious, paranoid, etc. If it's so easy to clarify the benign goals of the Muslim Brotherhood, why can't I get anyone to provide "Muslim approved" information sources on the specific issues of the definition of the Caliphate, the definition of "Muslim lands," and how Sharia law will be implemented in Muslim dominated countries?

What is the Muslim Brotherhood's goal regarding Israel?
Islamic Movement in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Egypt is a major player in the Middle East and has been one of the very few countries which support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. If the Muslim Brotherhood gains more power in Egypt due to the current crisis (which is a distinct possibility, wouldn't you agree?), how will Israel be impacted?

Do you honestly think that these are not legitimate questions?

 

[Kathryn]

OK, Abibi, I will go back through the thread and see if I can find the links you say you've posted three times.

I know this subject isn't NEW. But it's being revisited worldwide due to the current and continually evolving situation in Egypt.

Actually these conflicts are very old - and very tiring and sad.

Are you talking about this link?
http://www.ikhwanweb.com/

I've been on this site numerous times - it's very difficult to navigate. For instance, I can't find a simple explanation on this site regarding Israel, the Caliphate, etc. All I can find with the search engine is link after link after link of news releases.

I want concise answers and they are very difficult to determine.

 

[Bismillah]

Again I don't understand where people choose to project this information so I will repost my thoughts on the MB.

"Primary goals

• reinstatement of the caliphate and reunite the "dar el Islam".
• Strengthening the internal structure
• Administrative discipline
• Recruitment and settlement of the Dawa'a
• Energizing the organisations work
• Energizing political work fronts (e.g. in civil political organisations)

Secondary goals

• Finance and Investment
• Foreign relations
• Reviving Woman's activity
• Political awareness to the members of the Group
• Securing the group (To find out if they are being monitored, and if, how they can get rid of them)
• Dawa'ah (the lecture/speech of religion)
• Media (influencing of and infiltration in the media)
• Taking advantage of human potentials (e.g. infiltration in education, civil organizations)

It's an Islamic party plain and simple. I would hardly be surprised if their relations with Israel disintegrate nor that that they would continue to imprison Gaza (even at their own economic expense) but there is simply no such indication that they would take that turn in Egypt.

Again what I see it as projecting the boogeyman to justify Mubarak's unjust and tyrannical regime, like Caladan has shown us already.

The Egyptian Brotherhood renounced violence years ago, but its relative moderation has made it the target of extreme vilification by more radical Islamists. Al Qaeda’s leaders, Osama bin Laden and Ayman Zawahiri, started their political lives affiliated with the Brotherhood but both have denounced it for decades as too soft and a cat’s paw of Mubarak and America.

Muslim Brotherhood Could Win in Egypt Protests, And Why Obama Shouldn't Worry - The Daily Beast

However, considering its actions in the Egyptian parliament since 2005, it appears that those skeptics misjudged the movement's scope. In an article for the Middle East Report Samer Shehata from Georgetown University and Joshua Stacher from the British University in Egypt claim that, in fact, it was the Muslim Brotherhood that revived a parliament that till then had "a reputation for being a rubber stamp for the regime" .[40] First of all, according to their observations, the movement did not simply "focus on banning books and legislating the length of skirts" .[41] Instead, the movement's involvement shows attempts to reform the political system. Unlike other MPs, those associated with the Brotherhood took their parliamentary duties very seriously as an "unmatched record of attendance" [40] already shows. Moreover, they also took their role as members of the opposition to the ruling NDP quite seriously. A significant example is the creation of a considerable opposition to the extension of the emergency law when MPs associated with the Brotherhood "formed a coalition with other opposition legislators and with sympathetic members of the NDP, to protest the extension" .[38] The overall involvement leads Shehata and Stacher to the conclusion that the Brotherhood has convincingly attempted to transform "the Egyptian parliament into a real legislative body, as well as an institution that represents citizens and a mechanism that keeps government accountable".[40]

So it doesn't make sense to me trying to relate the ideology of the MB sixty years ago in a situation entirely out of place with today.

 

[Bismillah]

And yet we're accused of being suspicious, paranoid, etc. If it's so easy to clarify the benign goals of the Muslim Brotherhood, why can't I get anyone to provide "Muslim approved" information sources on the specific issues of the definition of the Caliphate, the definition of "Muslim lands," and how Sharia law will be implemented in Muslim dominated countries?

What is the Muslim Brotherhood's goal regarding Israel?
Islamic Movement in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Egypt is a major player in the Middle East and has been one of the very few countries which support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. If the Muslim Brotherhood gains more power in Egypt due to the current crisis (which is a distinct possibility, wouldn't you agree?), how will Israel be impacted?

How would Israel be impacted? Their illegal blockade and inhumane treatment of Gaza would be hindered. The treaty dissolved. Israeli diplomats pulled and the legitamicy of the country be cast into doubt. Worst case scenario (for Israel).

I don't see anything that entails war, the US will lose a puppet and Israel will see more pressure on its illegal activities. End of story.

 

[Kathryn]

How would Israel be impacted? Their illegal blockade and inhumane treatment of Gaza would be hindered. The treaty dissolved. Israeli diplomats pulled and the legitamicy of the country be cast into doubt. Worst case scenario (for Israel).

I don't see anything that entails war, the US will lose a puppet and Israel will see more pressure on its illegal activities. End of story.

This is from the English version Muslim Brotherhood website:

The Zionist entity (Israel) has usurped the land of Palestine, the land of Arabs and Muslims. No proud people can accept to stay put when their land is occupied and their sacred places are assaulted. Resisting occupation is required by Islam and sanctioned by international law, agreements and customs. As to the Camp David Accord and the peace treaty that were concluded by Egypt with the Zionist entity (Israel) in the late 1970s, they are presumed to be thoroughly reviewed periodically by international lawyers, strategists and national security experts, taking into account the local, regional and international dimensions of the question. The outcome of their review should be submitted to the democratic institutions of the Sate for decision.

As to the reported statement describing the holocaust as a myth, it was not intended as a denial of the event but only a rejection of exaggerations put forward by Jews. This does not mean that we are not against the holocaust. Anyway, that event should not have led to the loss of the rights of the Palestinian people, the occupation of their land and the violation and assault of their sacred places and sanctities.



Interesting. I'll continue to try to wade through the site and see what other information I can dig out.