The Situation in Egypt

[Alceste]

Lets get one thing straight it was a military a coup, a bloodless one, the Army is running Egypt now Field Marshal Mohammed Hussein Tantawi is in charge thats a fact.that means in short Martial law .

Lets wait and see if they fulfill their promises and the Army are not neutral Spinks they are ingrained into the establishment in Egypt, In the long run the will do whats best for the Army. If they were neutral they wouldn't be in charge.




Egyptian army calls the shots as nation embarks on democratic transition


Egyptian army calls the shots as nation embarks on democratic transition | World news | The Guardian

In fairness, while there is a distinct possibility of martial law if the streets do not clear and the protesters (those who have jobs) do not return to work, the army has explicitly pledged to lift the state of emergency (AKA martial law) that has been in place for 30 years in Egypt. Whether they will actually do it or not is anybody's guess, but I think they'd have to be crazy not to.

 

[Alceste]

This is one of those rare occasions when you an i agree.



Mubarak has been jettisoned by the guys who wield power.

Tomorrow is the start of the week in Egypt and the Army is expecting everyone to go home.

Fingers crossed here.

Hopefully they will at least wait until Monday to be stern. There is a lot of pent-up tension and newly discovered jubilation that needs to be released before people begin to straggle home voluntarily.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Lets get one thing straight it was a military a coup, a bloodless one, the Army is running Egypt now Field Marshal Mohammed Hussein Tantawi is in charge thats a fact.that means in short Martial law .

Lets wait and see if they fulfill their promises and the Army are not neutral Spinks they are ingrained into the establishment in Egypt, In the long run the will do whats best for the Army. If they were neutral they wouldn't be in charge.

Egyptian army calls the shots as nation embarks on democratic transition

Egyptian army calls the shots as nation embarks on democratic transition | World news | The Guardian

What happened was exactly what everyone expected would happen if the protesters got what they wanted. Mubarak steps down, hands power over to the military for the short-term, power is taken away from the current government and free elections are promised with oversight by the Courts. The word "coup" does not appear in your article.

I'm not saying it was definitely not a coup. But you and others seem to assume it was, without evidence. Just as people assumed the MB was the main part of the protests or would seize power, without evidence. Just assumptions. All the evidence so far is consistent with Mubarak **ceding** power to the military council in order to satisfy the demands of the Egyptian people. The council says they are acting as an interim until a "legitimate" government can be established by elections with Court oversight. This was always the envisioned path towards democracy, this was always the demand of the protesters, Sahar said so herself days ago. The protesters demanded this and fought for this and won this outcome. The Army did not demand, and there is no evidence the Army forced, this outcome. So it's ridiculous to simply call it a "military coup" just like any other screwed-up country, when a democratic revolution by the people is the simple explanation staring us right in the face.

 

[maro]

Speaking about foreign forces to pressure...blablabla...is very insulting to the Egyptians and their revolution.

I agree

I think the outsiders should stop worrying about us because we are adults now...I think they should mind their own business and let us worry about our revolution and its outcome...Be it a military coup ,the MB ,another dictator or even the devil.

 

[kai]

What happened was exactly what everyone expected would happen if the protesters got what they wanted. Mubarak steps down, hands power over to the military for the short-term, power is taken away from the current government and free elections are promised with oversight by the Courts. The word "coup" does not appear in your article.

I'm not saying it was definitely not a coup. But you and others seem to assume it was, without evidence. Just as people assumed the MB was the main part of the protests or would seize power, without evidence. Just assumptions. All the evidence so far is consistent with Mubarak **ceding** power to the military council in order to satisfy the demands of the Egyptian people. The council says they are acting as an interim until a "legitimate" government can be established by elections with Court oversight. This was always the envisioned path towards democracy, this was always the demand of the protesters, Sahar said so herself days ago. The protesters demanded this and fought for this and won this outcome. The Army did not demand, and there is no evidence the Army forced, this outcome. So it's ridiculous to simply call it a "military coup" just like any other screwed-up country, when a democratic revolution by the people is the simple explanation staring us right in the face.

There has been a democratic revolution by the people of that there is no doubt and that the military are in charge now,of that there is no doubt.

The current constitution has been broken by the vice President not succeeding to power so what we have is a coup even if its a coup by any other name,The military have taken over control of the country the regime that may have shed its figurehead but not its essence.

I havnt compared it to anything or any other country and i am not taking anything away from the protesters just stating the situation as it is.whats wrong with that?

 

[kai]

I agree

I think the outsiders should stop worrying about us because we are adults now...I think they should mind their own business and let us worry about our revolution and its outcome...Be it a military coup ,the MB ,another dictator or even the devil.

This is an open forum not the Islam DIR, if you dont want to see outsiders commenting on Egypt then i respectfully suggest maybe it would be easier for you if you didnt read it.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

There has been a democratic revolution by the people of that there is no doubt and that the military are in charge now,of that there is no doubt.

The current constitution has been broken by the vice President not succeeding to power so what we have is a coup even if its a coup by any other name,The military have taken over control of the country the regime that may have shed its figurehead but not its essence.

I havnt compared it to anything or any other country and i am not taking anything away from the protesters just stating the situation as it is.whats wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with that I just think you haven't quite stated what the situation is accurately. I would make two important qualifications to what your assessment of the situation:

(1) All indications so far are that the military did not act to "take" or "seize" power; rather, power was handed off to them in order to satisfy the people's demands. Is there any evidence that Mubarak's body guards turned on him? Is he being held against his will under house arrest by the Army? Did the Generals force Sulemein to make his announcement on TV at gunpoint? I haven't seen any evidence of this kind of thing. What I have seen is that Mubarak and Sulemein abandoned power and declared, as per the protesters' wishes, that the Army would have provisional power, which the Army never wanted. That's a slightly different course of events than the Army "taking" or "seizing" power in a coup; there's no evidence we had a few rogue generals take the initiative, disobey orders, arrest the President and declare themselves leaders.

(2) Officially you are right that the Army is "in control". But in a practical sense it is ultimately the people who are in control. What happened last night was a declaration, it was just words. Words will not change the fact that there are still millions of Egyptians and they still have the ability to fill the streets and bring the nation to a standstill. Does the Army have control over this? What changed to give them more control? The people threw out Mubarak. And the people will throw out the current generals of the Army if they do not make good on promises to fulfill protesters' demands. Yes the Army has tanks and guns but they have had those things for 18 days. Yes the Army is on the side of Mubarak but they couldn't keep their leader in power could they? If the generals order attacks on the protesters the enlisted soldiers will disobey orders as they have promised to do. So it's ultimately the people who are controlling the country's economy, the country's government, by their enormous veto power of protest.

 

[Alceste]

Spinkles, I have a particular sequence of events in mind: 1) the military met without Mubarak or Suleiman 2) They told the media Mubarak would resign in a televised speech 3) Mubarak gave a rambling narcissistic speech promising to hang on until September (or until he was dead and buried), causing dangerous levels of frustration and disappointment on the streets, 4) The military met again, without Mubarak or Suleiman. 5) Mubarak was flown out of Cairo in a military helicopter without making another public statement. 6) Suleiman announced Mubarak's "resignation" for him.

Those are the facts. Despite the media insisting on calling it a "resignation" or "stepping down", or "ceding power to the military", there is no evidence that Mubarak participated in the decision-making process or cooperated willingly with the transfer of power. There is much evidence to the contrary. That's why I call it a coup.

However, the simple fact that the military has siezed power from an unwilling dictator does not mean they are not siding with and responding to the demands of the revolutionaries. Nor does it mean it was the wrong thing to do. When your orders are wrong (eg. "help state security harass and torture citizens in an effort to suppress the protests"), disobeying them is right.

We will gain some insight into the intentions of the military when the interim government is established. Meaningful influence by secular, civilian opposition figures (such as el Baradei) will be a clear sign Egypt is heading in a democratic direction.

 

[croak]

This is an open forum not the Islam DIR, if you dont want to see outsiders commenting on Egypt then i respectfully suggest maybe it would be easier for you if you didnt read it.

I didn't get that impression from her. Just a mere statement of opinion. I could be wrong, though.

 

[Sahar]

This is an open forum not the Islam DIR, if you dont want to see outsiders commenting on Egypt then i respectfully suggest maybe it would be easier for you if you didnt read it.

And it would be easier for you if you comprehended what she said.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Spinkles, I have a particular sequence of events in mind: 1) the military met without Mubarak or Suleiman 2) They told the media Mubarak would resign in a televised speech 3) Mubarak gave a rambling narcissistic speech promising to hang on until September (or until he was dead and buried), causing dangerous levels of frustration and disappointment on the streets, 4) The military met again, without Mubarak or Suleiman. 5) Mubarak was flown out of Cairo in a military helicopter without making another public statement. 6) Suleiman announced Mubarak's "resignation" for him.

Those are the facts.

Oh I see then, I wasn't aware of these facts. They didn't appear in the Al-Jazeera article or the Gaurdian article on the situation. Could you provide any sources? Thanks.

 

[Genuine Realist]

I've witnessed police brutality, yes, and I've not seen a glimmer of shame.

Really. I am curious about the details.

The police officers I know attended the same schools, went to the same churches, and absorbed the same culture. There are of course good and bad among them, like all, perhaps more of the good, because the work does require a certain commitment.

So I am naturally interested in an experience that would lead to the expression of such a strong dichotomy between military and police (particularly since the personnel have significant overlap).

For I am candidly somewhat skeptical.

 

[maro]

This is an open forum not the Islam DIR, if you dont want to see outsiders commenting on Egypt then i respectfully suggest maybe it would be easier for you if you didnt read it.

of course i have no problem seeing outsiders commenting on Egypt...i just have a problem with outsiders thinking that the egyptians are minors who can't manage without their guardianship or probably without their approval

 

[maro]

And ah...Egypt is not a territory anymore...she belongs to the egyptians now....and wether we cheer over a military coup or not...elect the MB or not....it's our own business
and regarding the MB's attitude towards the bahais ,israel...etc . , it's our own agenda....of course *outsiders* are welcomed to comment and ask questions as it's an open forum...but not with the tone that gives the impression that we need to prove anything to anyone , or that we need to prove that the Mb are *ok * to anyone...may be i am mistaken and i got the wrong impression...but i jus wanted to make this clear enough

 

[Genuine Realist]

I think the anxiety of outsiders is not about the competence of the Egyptian people, who are quite sophisticated, but simply concern that the 'revolution' may be seized or subverted by Fascists or a strong man who does not reflect the popular will. This can happen in any unsettled situation and is certainly not unique to Egypt. The most significant occurrence in Western history is the Russian Revolution, which was effectively stolen by Lenin and the Bolsheviks.

I live in Silicon Valley, Ca, where the technology has brought a huge population from all over the world. There is a significant number of Iranians, and I have more than a few friends among them. Without exception, they despised the Shah. However, without exception, they believe that Iran was better off under the Shah than under the theocracy that followed. Without exception, the US President they despise is Jimmy Carter, who allowed the Revolution (which as in Egypt involved all elements of society) to be coopted by Khomeini.

I doubt that will happen in Egypt - everyone is on guard. But it does explain why outsides are anxious.

 

[maro]

I think the anxiety of outsiders is not about the competence of the Egyptian people, who are quite sophisticated, but simply concern that the 'revolution' may be seized or subverted by Fascists or a strong man who does not reflect the popular will.

Then let the popular will worry about that , GR

what you say is quite convincing...but unfortunately ,not to the egyptians...as it's well known here that the outsiders ' concerns are unfortunately not sincere..they still consider egypt a territory which serves their agenda ,not hers....but this has changed and the change is irreversible ,god willing

of course i am not generalizing...but this is the case for the official policies...and unfortuantely for some of the members on this forums whose posts have been so insensitive from the beginning of the thread as Sahar said

 

[Alceste]

Oh I see then, I wasn't aware of these facts. They didn't appear in the Al-Jazeera article or the Gaurdian article on the situation. Could you provide any sources? Thanks.

You must have missed it. I also got my information mainly from Al Jazeera and the Guardian*. There are hundreds of articles on Egypt in both those papers. Is there a specific factual claim you want me to back up, or do you want a source for every factual claim in my post?

Backing up every claim will be a time consuming, to be honest. Each fact comes from a different batch of articles that emerged over the last ten days or so. How about you find me one single article from anywhere that shows clear evidence that Mubarak has willingly resigned, or that any of my claims are false. If you can do that, I'll be happy to dig out sources for everything I said and we will see which seems more credible.

(*The bit about the military helicopter came from CBC Radio One, so I can't help you there.)

 

[Alceste]

Really. I am curious about the details.

The police officers I know attended the same schools, went to the same churches, and absorbed the same culture. There are of course good and bad among them, like all, perhaps more of the good, because the work does require a certain commitment.

So I am naturally interested in an experience that would lead to the expression of such a strong dichotomy between military and police (particularly since the personnel have significant overlap).

For I am candidly somewhat skeptical.

Then google police brutality. It's not rocket science.

 

[KnightOwl]

Then let the popular will worry about that , GR

what you say is quite convincing...but unfortunately ,not to the egyptians...as it's well known here that the outsiders ' concerns are unfortunately not sincere..they still consider egypt a territory which serves their agenda ,not hers....but this has changed and the change is irreversible ,god willing

of course i am not generalizing...but this is the case for the official policies...and unfortuantely for some of the members on this forums whose posts have been so insensitive from the beginning of the thread as Sahar said

In reading your posts and some similar ones from your fellow Muslims I'd like to respectfully submit that there isn't as big a gap between your wishes and ours, but rather a cultural divide. The way we phrase things in the west and the way things are phrased in the Middle Eastern and Arab world are slightly different and what you see as arrogant or insensitive is just us talking to you as though you were one of us with no such offense meant. I'm not sure where that divide takes place, but I'm guessing part of it has to do with a heightened importance on individuality in the west. Hopefully you will see this for what it is and exercise patience in trying to gain an understanding just as I hope most of us would do.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

You must have missed it. I also got my information mainly from Al Jazeera and the Guardian*. There are hundreds of articles on Egypt in both those papers. Is there a specific factual claim you want me to back up, or do you want a source for every factual claim in my post?

Backing up every claim will be a time consuming, to be honest. Each fact comes from a different batch of articles that emerged over the last ten days or so. How about you find me one single article from anywhere that shows clear evidence that Mubarak has willingly resigned, or that any of my claims are false. If you can do that, I'll be happy to dig out sources for everything I said and we will see which seems more credible.

(*The bit about the military helicopter came from CBC Radio One, so I can't help you there.)

Al-Jazeera has repeatedly referred to Mubarak "stepping down" and "handing power to the military", and when Al-Jazeera uses a word like "ousted" they say he was ousted by the 18-day uprising of protesters, not ousted by the military. See article here and first paragraphs here. The Guardian article said Mubarak resigned and did not say the military seized power. No mention of the important facts you cited, namely # 1-2 and # 4-5, i.e. no mention of the Army meeting independently of Mubarak and announcing he would resign before Mubarak announced he would not resign, no mention of him being kidnapped out of Cairo in a military helicopter (although how else would he travel, coup or no coup?) Sure Mubarak didn't make the public statement of his resignation, maybe it was a coup but OTOH lots of important figures, when they are defeated, have their underlings admit defeat on their behalf, because they can't bear to do it themselves.