The snake didn´t lie, God cheated

[HolyMoly]

God gave everyone free will then drowned them all when they weren't acting the way he wanted. What a role model!

 

[mayuboar]

god lied about the tree, and satan the prince of lies came along and told them to truth.

god called him the prince of lies but was lying himself, hypocritical.

 

[Sleeppy]

God gave everyone free will then drowned them all when they weren't acting the way he wanted. What a role model!

Because the people became so ignorant, they were self destructive. They destroyed themselves to the point that when it was time to build a boat, they couldn't. Then they were dead in the water.. Despite being warned there was water coming! This time it's Spirit and the water of Life being poured out. The people need to learn to swim. And have strength enough to gulp to Life, before they die of thirst.

 

[Sleeppy]

god lied about the tree, and satan the prince of lies came along and told them to truth.

god called him the prince of lies but was lying himself, hypocrital.

You read that backwards, friend. Show me, if not?

 

[PolyHedral]

Because the people became so ignorant...

When God is an infinitely good communicator, who's fault is that?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Because the people became so ignorant, they were self destructive. They destroyed themselves to the point that when it was time to build a boat, they couldn't. Then they were dead in the water.. Despite being warned there was water coming! This time it's Spirit and the water of Life being poured out. The people need to learn to swim. And have strength enough to gulp to Life, before they die of thirst.

^^ blaming the victims

 

[eagerlearner]

I hope I'm not adding more of the same to this thread. I am brand new to the site and just wanted to throw in my two cents.

First off, I see the problems with the thread that I see in many online communities. Someone asks a very detailed and observant question and gets a lot of resistence for it, and also some support and communication. I personally wish if people didn't have something constructive to ADD to the conversation then just stay out. (I'm sure I'll get called an idiot for this remark by those same people, wounded dogs always bark first.)

But onto the topic of did God lie about the tree of knowledge?

When I was handed my bible when I was a wee little lad, I wasn't jewish, I wasn't taught ancient hebrew/greek/arameic. It was that funny King James english mumbo-jumbo. And if I read the words as they are taught and studied by nearly a billion other Christians, I have to conclude that God lied.

God told Adam if he ate of the tree of knowledge that he would die. It's odd that Eve is the one the serpent went to in this instance as she was not even created at the time that God gave the command not to eat of the tree of knowledge.

But here is the fundamental part of the story...the serpent could only trick Eve if he could prove that something God said didn't match the reality of what he told Adam and Eve....if the serpent can't do this, then the story can not even progress at all! He pressed Eve to touch the fruit, then eat the fruit and she saw that God had lied. This is the only way the story moves along after this at all.
Now here's something that always got me. Once Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, wasn't her eyes supposed to be opened? Didn't she have 'shame' and knowledge? Why would she take the fruit to her husband after that?
And also if we are to believe that this serpent is supposed to be Satan, why didn't Satan eat of the tree of life to circumvent God's decreed destruction(second death) of Satan. There's the tree right there with everlasting life. Also why didn't the serpent tell Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of life first? So they would live forever, further complicating things for God?
That was one stupid serpent!
BUT the serpent was not a liar. Even though Satan has been called slanderer, the first liar, father of all lies, father of murder...he still did not lie here. He told Eve she would not die. And she did not. She even went to her husband with the fruit once she saw that she had not died.

So what is my conclusion? Genesis is a bed time story made up for kids. My God is not a liar and wouldn't waste time playing this childish games. He shows fear and concern because Adam and Eve had knowledge, then showed even more concern over the tree of life, 'lest they live until time indefinite.' It makes no sense. My God that loves me doesn't want me to be super smart OR live forever?

Also he's GOD, he knows EVERYTHING...he wouldn't know putting that tree there would be a bad idea?! With all his infinite power he couldn't see the serpent sneaking around and talking to Eve? What, did the serpent have a cloaking device or something? And why is God walking around asking where Adam and Eve was at and what happened? More mind games? More blames games? He's GOD, he knew what was going to happen down to every detail, so why do it? Why set it up that way?

It's a very poorly constructed story to kick the bible off. It makes no sense and doesn't represent any God I would worship. (And that's if you even get past the magical trees and talking serpent, and cherubims and flaming sword) We have stories like that today, we call them sci-fi, RPG, fantasty stories. Ever see lord of the rings? That's a good one, a lot like this story. They have a crappy story to kick that off too called the Hobbit, and even it's getting a movie.

`Eager

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Ooh, interesting details you caught, there. Good start!

 

[Desert Snake]

god lied about the tree, and satan the prince of lies came along and told them to truth.

god called him the prince of lies but was lying himself, hypocritical.

Completely wrong, have you even read Genesis?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Completely wrong, have you even read Genesis?

I imagine so, as the summation was accurate.

 

[NIX]

I hope I'm not adding more of the same to this thread. I am brand new to the site and just wanted to throw in my two cents.

First off, I see the problems with the thread that I see in many online communities. Someone asks a very detailed and observant question and gets a lot of resistence for it, and also some support and communication. I personally wish if people didn't have something constructive to ADD to the conversation then just stay out. (I'm sure I'll get called an idiot for this remark by those same people, wounded dogs always bark first.)

But onto the topic of did God lie about the tree of knowledge?

When I was handed my bible when I was a wee little lad, I wasn't jewish, I wasn't taught ancient hebrew/greek/arameic. It was that funny King James english mumbo-jumbo. And if I read the words as they are taught and studied by nearly a billion other Christians, I have to conclude that God lied.

God told Adam if he ate of the tree of knowledge that he would die. It's odd that Eve is the one the serpent went to in this instance as she was not even created at the time that God gave the command not to eat of the tree of knowledge.

But here is the fundamental part of the story...the serpent could only trick Eve if he could prove that something God said didn't match the reality of what he told Adam and Eve....if the serpent can't do this, then the story can not even progress at all! He pressed Eve to touch the fruit, then eat the fruit and she saw that God had lied. This is the only way the story moves along after this at all.
Now here's something that always got me. Once Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, wasn't her eyes supposed to be opened? Didn't she have 'shame' and knowledge? Why would she take the fruit to her husband after that?
And also if we are to believe that this serpent is supposed to be Satan, why didn't Satan eat of the tree of life to circumvent God's decreed destruction(second death) of Satan. There's the tree right there with everlasting life. Also why didn't the serpent tell Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of life first? So they would live forever, further complicating things for God?
That was one stupid serpent!
BUT the serpent was not a liar. Even though Satan has been called slanderer, the first liar, father of all lies, father of murder...he still did not lie here. He told Eve she would not die. And she did not. She even went to her husband with the fruit once she saw that she had not died.

So what is my conclusion? Genesis is a bed time story made up for kids. My God is not a liar and wouldn't waste time playing this childish games. He shows fear and concern because Adam and Eve had knowledge, then showed even more concern over the tree of life, 'lest they live until time indefinite.' It makes no sense. My God that loves me doesn't want me to be super smart OR live forever?

Also he's GOD, he knows EVERYTHING...he wouldn't know putting that tree there would be a bad idea?! With all his infinite power he couldn't see the serpent sneaking around and talking to Eve? What, did the serpent have a cloaking device or something? And why is God walking around asking where Adam and Eve was at and what happened? More mind games? More blames games? He's GOD, he knew what was going to happen down to every detail, so why do it? Why set it up that way?

It's a very poorly constructed story to kick the bible off. It makes no sense and doesn't represent any God I would worship. (And that's if you even get past the magical trees and talking serpent, and cherubims and flaming sword) We have stories like that today, we call them sci-fi, RPG, fantasty stories. Ever see lord of the rings? That's a good one, a lot like this story. They have a crappy story to kick that off too called the Hobbit, and even it's getting a movie.

`Eager

Excellent observations and very well communicated. Liked your concluding paragraph as well. Frubals! and Welcome to the forum.

 

[Desert Snake]

I imagine so, as the summation was accurate.

First off there was no "lying" about the tree, simply an order to not eat of the fruit, secondly, it is an assumption that it was Satan who came along in the guise of the snake.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

First off there was no "lying" about the tree, simply an order to not eat of the fruit, secondly, it is an assumption that it was Satan who came along in the guise of the snake.

We've already discussed how it was a lie about the tree. The original Hebrew has even been noted. I personally don't see Satan as being present, but we do have to discuss what others think, in abstract.

As an aside I am rather sure somewhere in here I noted that I think the snake ate of the Tree first, and that's why he knew, and why he could talk.

 

[Desert Snake]

We've already discussed how it was a lie about the tree. The original Hebrew has even been noted.

Huh? Where?......

I personally don't see Satan as being present, but we do have to discuss what others think, in abstract.

So you disagree with the statement made yet you consider the summation to be correct.........."abstract" is great but this is a major divergence here...

As an aside I am rather sure somewhere in here I noted that I think the snake ate of the Tree first, and that's why he knew, and why he could talk.

................

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Huh? Where?......

Well, I've gone back as far as page 2 and I may have missed it, but in the course of things I have definitely quoted the actual Hebrew of Genesis, wherein God specifically says 'In the day you eat of it", and, also quoted Eve somewhat later quoting God back to the serpent.

Since there are many threads on the subject and many quotes from me, I'll just requote it here for brevity:
Gen2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'
That's God speaking, and
Gen3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'

Read as it was told for generations and as it was then written out, it is obvious this is a warning against an object identical to a poison; touching it or eating it means death, in the more or less instantaneous sense.

There is no apologetic mention of 'spiritual death' or any such nonsense, nor any valid indicator in the tense of the Hebrew wording.

Adam and Eve lived to be almost a thousand and had full lives after this. Therefore, it's a lie.

So you disagree with the statement made yet you consider the summation to be correct.........."abstract" is great but this is a major divergence here...

I'm not sure what your objection is, here.
I understand pretty clearly that this myth does not in any way describe a real, historical event. However I am forced to discuss it in a manner in which the story must be analyzed as if it were a coherent sequence, in imitation of reality. Therefore I can find fault with it or consider alternative explanations. Mine fits pretty well, all told.

Why do you even have a talking snake who is talking about the Tree?
Answer: he ate of it himself and his eyes were opened.

Either that or FYIM, which I really don't put much truck in.