The so-called global flood--evidence against

[1213]

It would not be just one layer of silt. A flood of that magnitude would leave literally a jumble of debris world wide many meters deep and destroy most of the existing surface.

I agree with that. I think the result of the flood is the oil, gas and coal fields, and all orogenic mountains.

 

[1213]

Sorry that is pure fantasy. We know how old the mountains are, we can date them.

Sorry, I don't think that is true.

Also your image in "3" shows a structure that would immediately collapse.

There is no physical reason why it would collapse, unless the balance is broken. Water can support a lot of weight, if it can't escape.

It appears that you think that sedimentary rocks are young I have a picture that shows that they are millions of years old.

I believe they are relatively young. If they would be as old as you suggest, I think they would already have been eroded away.

 

[Tamino]

Giant sloth would probably have been on higher ground. It also is bigger and requires more stuff before it is stuck in sediments. Also, when a mammal drowns, it usually floats some time before sinking. This is why it is not as easily in sediments and doesn't as easily become a fossil.

It does not make sense. Still not. You are relying on different kinds of organisms somehow drowning and sinking and being fossilized in a way that makes the appear in orderly layers later on. But that's not what physically happens - from one single year and event one would expect to see one single, mixed layer.
You're pretending that the "sink-to-the-bottom-and fossilize-speed" of an organism is mysteriously tied to its position in phylogeny. That's like employing Occam's Hair Tonic instead of Occam's Razor.
AND if humans (and Nephilim) lived on earth at the time of the flood, we'd expect human fossils and remains of human buildings in the LOWER layer of the proposed flood strata. There's none.

I don't claim all possible layers are because of the great flood. The flood event caused the ice age. And the melting of the great glaciers caused also lot of layers and finished largely the job. After those, there has happened also events that has caused layers. And it is also possible that before the flood, there was also events that caused layers. But, I believe the great flood event is the reason for example to all orogenic mountains.

Yeah, but then you have the problem, again, that while you assume that all organisms existed simultaneously since creation, the layers fo sediment only contain certain species.

Oh, and if you think that all of that stuff is physically possible I'd like to hear your solution to the Heat Problem, please!

 

[blü 2]

You still don't seem to understand that the water came in two ways. And the reason for both is the same. Bible tells that it begun when the fountains of the great deep were burst open.

This might be credible and even relevant if you can ─

(a) point to even one credible example of these caverns, and
(b) explain how bringing water up from underground can raise the world's water levels at all, let alone by 28,000 feet or more, since the spaces it previously occupied would either instantly refill with water, or with rocks, soil, and the like, thus bringing the average gain in raising to zero, near enougj.

So, there was not only the rain,

Where did the water constituting the rain come from?

And actually, the water level didn't rise, it was the dry land that sunk.

The bible says nothing of the kind.

And any such event in the last 5,000 years or so would be overwhelmingly obvious from the resulting geology ─ though as you know there's nothing of the kind.

And the reason why it could not happen today is that the water has compressed the things that sunk so that it looks like mountains have risen. Mountains have not actually risen, it is the ocean floor that has gone down, making it look like mountains are rising.

That makes no sense at all, and is supported by zero evidence. With all proper respect to you, that's ridiculous.

Bible doesn't say earth is flat.

The bible says the earth is flat. And immovably fixed. And that the sky is a hard dome to which the stars are attached such that if they come loose, they'll fall to earth. The "immovably fixed" part means that they had no concept of a heliocentric solar system, or of orbits, or of gravity,or of planets, satellites, the nature of stars, of galaxies, or of deep space generally,

I gave you a link to the parts of the bible that spell it all out. It's similar to the cosmology of Babylon at that time. Here's that >link< again. I suggest you read it in order to understand what it actually says. Fundamentalists tend to exhibit the vice of imposing their own meanings on the plain words, and I dare say this is to keep the bible "inerrant". In fact, like any ancient document, it speaks for its time, and ancient science was not our science,

Bible tells, earth means dry land, not the whole planet. And the dry land was first single continent that could perhaps be called relatively flat. However, Bible doesn't say that the original continent was flat. The idea of flat earth is just a poor interpretation of what is said in the Bible.

How can you cover Mt Everest 25 or so feet deep with water AND confine the flood strictly to the Eurasian land mass? The bible flatly contradicts that hypothesis. It says instead, "all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered" (Genesis 7:19-20).

 

[Heyo]

Sorry, I don't see any reason why it would be impossible.

That's because you don't know anything about science. Well, at least you know that the Earth isn't flat. That's why you deny that the Bible says so. But everything else is just as much in conflict with science as an Earth with four corners where you can see all of Earth from a high mountain.
Every single claim in your story has either ample evidence against it, or no evidence for it. You can't point to any peer reviewed paper that supports your story. And people who have tried to circumvent the protocol had to be reminded by a court. It cost the Dover school district board about one million dollar to learn that.

 

[shunyadragon]

I agree with that. I think the result of the flood is the oil, gas and coal fields, and all orogenic mountains.

That would not represent the vast amount of jumbled sediment required worldwide as evidence for a world flood.

It has overwhelmingly demonstrated to you that the oil,gas, coalfields and orogenic mountains are a product of Natural Laws and natural processes over billions of years. The scenario you present to justify the world flood is literally physically impossible.

You stoically and dishonestly ignore the physical evidence to justify your intentional ignorance of science.

I worked as a geologist in the coal fields in West Virginia. The evidence is overwhelming. The coal was deposited in discrete sequences of Beach and wind blown sandstones, shales, and coal, with clary substrate under the coal in swamps just like coal is forming today in swamps around the world. In the layers there are mud cracks, worm tracks in the sediment, standing trees, and numerous fossils like ferens grown in swamps. The coals occur in even layers in a very orderly cyclic pattern thousands of feet thick, and show absolutely no evidence of such a world flood. Some limestones are found in the layers and limestones do not form in flood conditions.

 

[Colt]

I realize that this topic has been addressed here and there in many threads. I'd like to collect all the points into one clearly labeled thread. Let's list all the arguments and evidence against the flood. They can include, for example, geological evidence, or internal problems with the Genesis account.

I'll start.

If there had been a global flood, there would be a single layer of silt extending all around the world. No such layer of silt exists.

It didn't even work! If God was really disappointed in his creative work to the point of erasing it all and starting over, it didn't work, the world is as wicked as ever!!!!

The only reason rational people would accept such an absurd
claim is because the story is found in a sacred book!

 

[Subduction Zone]

You still don't seem to understand that the water came in two ways. And the reason for both is the same. Bible tells that it begun when the fountains of the great deep were burst open. This means, under the original single continent there was vast cavity filled with water. And when the water started to came out, it was first similar to as what we can see in modern geysers. Lots of water vapor came out, causing the long rain period. And after that the cracks in the original continent started to widen and water below the earth (dry land) started flooding.

Sorry, but you cannot save nonsense with more nonsense. The atmosphere can only hold a few inches of water. One can temporarily load it a bit in tropical areas, but that is extremely unstable. In your myth the atmosphere did not have rain at all. That would make it even drier than it is today and if all of the water fell out of the atmosphere today. So no water from the atmosphere. You would have to go to space. And that is how you cook Noah. Have you ever watched a rocket take off. It has to burn an incredible amount of fuel to get a relatively low rate up to orbital speed. Well, when things come out of orbit they have that same energy. That is why most meteors, bits of rock and even metals, burn up before they hit the ground. You would have water with more than enough energy to "burn" if it could raining down, Large chunks of ice might make it through the atmosphere, but they would explode on impact. All of that energy, and you need about five miles of water, would cook everything on the face of the Earth. It would burn it to an ash.

The "waters of the deep" would also kill Noah and company with heat, but not as badly. Again, groundwater near the surface is insufficient to do the job nor is there a way to get it out of the Earth. If somehow you had super heated water, as you go down both pressure and temperature increase, and that was released somehow it would come out as live steam. This would not be quite as hot as space water, but still more than enough to kill Noah and family.

So, there was not only the rain, but also the flooding water from below the dry land. And probably the water from below was the greater source for the flood water. And the reason for this is that the original continent was broken and begun to sunk. In post #19, there is images that show the principle of how it happened.

Oops, see above. But now you are killing Noah and family another way. Even lying creationist sources admit that the rapid movement of continents and the molten magma involved would again kill Noah and family with heat.

And actually, the water level didn't rise, it was the dry land that sunk. And the reason why it could not happen today is that the water has compressed the things that sunk so that it looks like mountains have risen. Mountains have not actually risen, it is the ocean floor that has gone down, making it look like mountains are rising.

No, the mountains are very very old. We can date them. If you want to know how we can go over that. You do not get to make this excuse without owning up to how you have already killed Noah and family with three different sources of heat.

By the way, your excuses will only make even more heat. You will have killed Noah and family five different ways.

Bible doesn't say earth is flat. Bible tells, earth means dry land, not the whole planet. And the dry land was first single continent that could perhaps be called relatively flat. However, Bible doesn't say that the original continent was flat. The idea of flat earth is just a poor interpretation of what is said in the Bible.

Actually it does. But you do not understand the sciences or math. If you want to interpret the Bible literally for the myths of Genesis then you need to be consistent.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sorry, I don't see any reason why it would be impossible.

That is because you keep yourself ignorant. That also means that you do not see how you claim that God is a liar in the process, even though everyone else does.

Let me ask you a question. Let's say that I killed someone. But I am also a master of manipulating evidence. I get DNA from a someone I know by various means. I put some underneath the fingernails of the victim. I put some around the scene. While the man that I know is sleeping I manage to get his fingerprints on the murder weapon. I plant piece after piece of false evidence indicating that he was the guilty party.

I then go to the police and "turn him in". Did I lie anywhere in the process? Was planting false evidence a lie?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sorry, I don't think that is true.

It does not matter what you think. You use the ostrich defense. Why do you call your God a liar? You do that even if you do not understnad how you do tht.

There is no physical reason why it would collapse, unless the balance is broken. Water can support a lot of weight, if it can't escape.

Really? And now you are an engineer. You are now ignoring the law of gravity. The force of gravity varies each day as the Earth rotates. That is why we have tides. You cannot have "balance" in structures that large. And why was the water there in the first place? Why do you keep claiming that God is incompetent. You have him as being incredibly incompetent and yet the most successful liar of al times. You are not being consistent in your reasoning.

I believe they are relatively young. If they would be as old as you suggest, I think they would already have been eroded away.

Really? So now you are an expert in rates of erosion. Okay. show me the math.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

It does not make sense. Still not. You are relying on different kinds of organisms somehow drowning and sinking and being fossilized in a way that makes the appear in orderly layers later on. But that's not what physically happens

It's a standard response from a very old playbook.

- from one single year and event one would expect to see one single, mixed layer.

Agreed.

You're pretending that the "sink-to-the-bottom-and fossilize-speed" of an organism is mysteriously tied to its position in phylogeny. That's like employing Occam's Hair Tonic instead of Occam's Razor.

If this were an actual property of organisms, taxonomists would be using it to sort taxa. But they don't, because it is nonsense.

AND if humans (and Nephilim) lived on earth at the time of the flood, we'd expect human fossils and remains of human buildings in the LOWER layer of the proposed flood strata. There's none.

I thought this was an excellent point regarding human structures and, I would add by extension, human cultural artifacts. Any so called flood layer would have associated human structures and artifacts at the base and the exact same structures and artifacts reproduced above on the surface. And repopulated with new populations startlingly the same as the prior drowned populations down to customs, culture and language as well as morphology.

Yeah, but then you have the problem, again, that while you assume that all organisms existed simultaneously since creation, the layers fo sediment only contain certain species.

It is very good evidence for the age of the earth and evolution, but not for a global flood.

Oh, and if you think that all of that stuff is physically possible I'd like to hear your solution to the Heat Problem, please!

I've seen some attempts but they are very similar in reason, structure and silliness to what I've seen here so far brought to defend the global flood.

 

[Tomef]

I realize that this topic has been addressed here and there in many threads. I'd like to collect all the points into one clearly labeled thread. Let's list all the arguments and evidence against the flood. They can include, for example, geological evidence, or internal problems with the Genesis account.

I'll start.

If there had been a global flood, there would be a single layer of silt extending all around the world. No such layer of silt exists.

There would be random shopping trolleys here and there in the Himalaya. I didn’t see one, last time I was there.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

KJV: Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Some translations say "springs" instead of "fountains".

The Bible says no more on these "fountains". We don't know anything about them more than what is written. How many? Distribution? Flow rate and volume? How they were supplied with water? What contribution to the total volume they provided?

Nothing more is said and everything beyond the biblical mention is wishful speculation with the baseless intent of biasing the global flood as the answer.

 

[Anne1]

This might be credible and even relevant if you can ─

Noah and the ark is an allegory. There was no ark. There was no flood. This is believed by the majority of Christians. I am baffled as to what people you think you are addressing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Noah and the ark is an allegory. There was no ark. There was no flood. This is believed by the majority of Christians. I am baffled as to what people you think you are addressing.

In the US there are a fairly high percentage of Christians that make the error of reading Genesis literally. They even try to teach it in public schools as "fact" at times.

 

[Sargonski]

Noah and the ark is an allegory. There was no ark. There was no flood. This is believed by the majority of Christians. I am baffled as to what people you think you are addressing.

In the US there are a fairly high percentage of Christians that make the error of reading Genesis literally. They even try to teach it in public schools as "fact" at times.

I sense some "unbelief" about certain events .. recorded in in the collecive memory of mankind .. and yes allusion and allegory are used at times to tell this story ... about how there was some bad arse flooding giong on .. in various places in the world .. a recurring theme through history .. as cities all over the world submerged to the depths as Sea level rose come 400 feet over ~ 5000 years ..

So .. there was a Flood ..there were many ... one in particular I can think of in the subject zone .. folks living in that Near East Region would think the whole damn world flooded .. which was only a small part of the world but how would some dude living in or around the black sea in 5000 BC know that. its the Whole Damn World .. this even etched into the memory .. and like any Fish Story gets bigger with time .. and as was common back then .. and still happens today .. a natural disaster is blamed on displeasing the Gods .. who was that Pastor saying Katrina was because of the Gays ! .. God teaching humanity a lesson. ands in the case of the land damn bursting .. that was a lesson of greatest proportion.. something Disney can not compete with.. .. and we are told in scripture .. why this Storm God decided to do it.

In the Enuma Elish -- and/or Atra Hasis Text -- we are told it was because these humans .. who the Gods actually created for use as workers .. an Alien - Hominid hybrid of sorts .. just like the Bible say "Like US .. in OUR image" .. anyway .. these creatures get too noisy and Enlil decides to send a great Flood .. his Brother Enki however saves the Day .. manages to tell a human to build a boat.. same as the Noah story..

Now in the Bible -- exact same thing --- just the reason is slightly different .. God is upset at the humans .. regrets his mistake of creating them .. wasn't able to predict the outcome would be so horrible .. but .. you can't get it right all the time .. not even in Heaven.

But Look . and Believe .. what a terrible Mistake this God made .. its right there in scripture .. no allegory required .. God fked up .. royally ..and now wants to have a tantrum and take a sledgehammer his creation sitting on the work bench ..

3When humankind[a] began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born[b] to them,[c] 2 the sons of God[d] saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful. Thus they took wives for themselves from any they chose.

so after these hybrids began to multiply .. the "Sons of God" -- that Enlil fellow mentioned earlier had 70 .. Enki had a bunch too .. and these "sons of God" would marry these women ... .. the offspring were called Nephilim .. these were the hero's of old .. the Greek hero's you have heard of .. this is the grain of truth .. Believe.

4 The Nephilim[l] were on the earth in those days (and also after this)[m] when the sons of God would sleep with[n] the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children.[o] They were the mighty heroes[p] of old, the famous men.[q]

5 But the Lord saw[r] that the wickedness of humankind had become great on the earth. Every inclination[s] of the thoughts[t] of their minds[u] was only evil[v] all the time.[w] 6 The Lord regretted[x] that he had made humankind on the earth, and he was highly offended.[y] 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe humankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—everything from humankind to animals,[z] including creatures that move on the ground and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them.”

So the reason this time -- God is "Highly offended" by his creation .. these humans a completely worthless bunch .. good for nothing on steroids .. their minds only to evil ALL of the Time.

If you were not feeling good about yourself at this point .. well .. what can I say .. God then goes on at how he regrets this ridiculously horrible mistake .. and want to wipe that mistake off the map .. and that is the reason why She sent the Flood .. is 5000 BC so is a Feminine Serpent that sent the flood.

So .. now .. there was perhaps no Ark containing 2 of every creature .. but there was some folks with boats that managed to survive .. but very few so and one went this way the other that so the one didn't know that the other existed and they thought they the only ones that made it .. and one family in particular that made it was helped by the kind God Enki .. taught us how to build the boat .. and gave other wisdom .. to mankind .. .. had a big hand in the creation of the "Adamu" .. in his Laboratory called the E. DIN

The text describes the implantation of 14 of the Annunaki females (these sky people call themselves annunaki) 7 female and 7 male.

Now .. while you may not have Faith boys and girls .. this is what the folks roaming the earth 5000 years ago believed .. and ancient alien theorists suggest that the beliefs of these people were right non the money.

And now you know "The Rest of the Story"

 

[Subduction Zone]

I sense some "unbelief" about certain events .. recorded in in the collecive memory of mankind .. and yes allusion and allegory are used at times to tell this story ... about how there was some bad arse flooding giong on .. in various places in the world .. a recurring theme through history .. as cities all over the world submerged to the depths as Sea level rose come 400 feet over ~ 5000 years ..

So .. there was a Flood ..there were many ... one in particular I can think of in the subject zone .. folks living in that Near East Region would think the whole damn world flooded .. which was only a small part of the world but how would some dude living in or around the black sea in 5000 BC know that. its the Whole Damn World .. this even etched into the memory .. and like any Fish Story gets bigger with time .. and as was common back then .. and still happens today .. a natural disaster is blamed on displeasing the Gods .. who was that Pastor saying Katrina was because of the Gays ! .. God teaching humanity a lesson. ands in the case of the land damn bursting .. that was a lesson of greatest proportion.. something Disney can not compete with.. .. and we are told in scripture .. why this Storm God decided to do it.

In the Enuma Elish -- and/or Atra Hasis Text -- we are told it was because these humans .. who the Gods actually created for use as workers .. an Alien - Hominid hybrid of sorts .. just like the Bible say "Like US .. in OUR image" .. anyway .. these creatures get too noisy and Enlil decides to send a great Flood .. his Brother Enki however saves the Day .. manages to tell a human to build a boat.. same as the Noah story..

Now in the Bible -- exact same thing --- just the reason is slightly different .. God is upset at the humans .. regrets his mistake of creating them .. wasn't able to predict the outcome would be so horrible .. but .. you can't get it right all the time .. not even in Heaven.

But Look . and Believe .. what a terrible Mistake this God made .. its right there in scripture .. no allegory required .. God fked up .. royally ..and now wants to have a tantrum and take a sledgehammer his creation sitting on the work bench ..




so after these hybrids began to multiply .. the "Sons of God" -- that Enlil fellow mentioned earlier had 70 .. Enki had a bunch too .. and these "sons of God" would marry these women ... .. the offspring were called Nephilim .. these were the hero's of old .. the Greek hero's you have heard of .. this is the grain of truth .. Believe.


So the reason this time -- God is "Highly offended" by his creation .. these humans a completely worthless bunch .. good for nothing on steroids .. their minds only to evil ALL of the Time.

If you were not feeling good about yourself at this point .. well .. what can I say .. God then goes on at how he regrets this ridiculously horrible mistake .. and want to wipe that mistake off the map .. and that is the reason why She sent the Flood .. is 5000 BC so is a Feminine Serpent that sent the flood.

So .. now .. there was perhaps no Ark containing 2 of every creature .. but there was some folks with boats that managed to survive .. but very few so and one went this way the other that so the one didn't know that the other existed and they thought they the only ones that made it .. and one family in particular that made it was helped by the kind God Enki .. taught us how to build the boat .. and gave other wisdom .. to mankind .. .. had a big hand in the creation of the "Adamu" .. in his Laboratory called the E. DIN

View attachment 90727View attachment 90728View attachment 90729


The text describes the implantation of 14 of the Annunaki females (these sky people call themselves annunaki) 7 female and 7 male.

Now .. while you may not have Faith boys and girls .. this is what the folks roaming the earth 5000 years ago believed .. and ancient alien theorists suggest that the beliefs of these people were right non the money.

And now you know "The Rest of the Story"

The Black Sea Flood, though it was a big one, was probably not the inspiration for the Noah's Ark myth. That flood advanced very slowly on the land. It took a year to fill the basin. A person could have literally crawled away from it. There is a better suspect in the Tigris Euphrates river system. It was wide spread enough so that anyone out in the middle of it would have seen only water. Plus it went away. And its onset would have been much faster.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In the US there are a fairly high percentage of Christians that make the error of reading Genesis literally. They even try to teach it in public schools as "fact" at times.

I agree. And I find it odd that so many atheists read it literally too.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I agree. And I find it odd that so many atheists read it literally too.

I read it literally when those that I am debating do. It is how one shows that the Bible is wrong if one insists that it has to be read literally.

And I know that most Christians do not read it literally. I am only dealing with a minority, but they are a very noisy minority that have a history of trying to put their version of Christianity into public schools.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Noah and the ark is an allegory. There was no ark. There was no flood. This is believed by the majority of Christians. I am baffled as to what people you think you are addressing.

Quite a few on RF seem to think so - hence why we have some threads discussing the topic and going into great detail as to how such happened - but really didn't.