Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
In 1 Peter 3:18-20.It mentions Jesus preaching to what looks like dead people.What makes me think they are dead people?1 Peter 4:6.
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The spirits in prison being dead people
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
Yes, they are dead, but spirit prison is temporary and people can accept Jesus' teachings then.
What is your question?
Brian2
Veteran Member
That looks right. I had not noticed 1Peter 4:6 and associated it with 1Peter 3:18-20 before.
The JWs can't afford to look at 1Peter 4:6 too closely or they may have to realise their beliefs are not true.
We Never Know
No Slack
After reading 1 Peter 3:18-20 I take it as the spirit prison is sin because its says "while the ark was preparing, while few, that is eight were saved b water."
So the ark was preparing and wasn't the earth flooded because its was full of sin?
Suffered: very many ancient manuscripts and versions read “died.” Put to death in the flesh: affirms that Jesus truly died as a human being. Brought to life in the spirit: that is, in the new and transformed existence freed from the limitations and weaknesses of natural human life 1Cor 15:45
1Peter 3:19 The spirits in prison: it is not clear just who these spirits are. They may be the spirits of the sinners who died in the flood, or angelic powers, hostile to God, who have been overcome by Christ (1Peter:22, Gen 6:4, Enoch 6-36, 21:6, 2 Enoch7, 1-5)
1Peter 3:19 The spirits in prison: it is not clear just who these spirits are. They may be the spirits of the sinners who died in the flood, or angelic powers, hostile to God, who have been overcome by Christ (1Peter:22, Gen 6:4, Enoch 6-36, 21:6, 2 Enoch7, 1-5)
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, you're right. They are "spirits in prison" because they died without the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Prior to His ministry there, they had no hope, but for those who repented of their sins and accepted His gift of eternal life, it was as if they had heard His gospel during their mortal lifetimes. Furthermore, the work in the spirit prison continues to this day, not by Jesus Christ himself but by the spirits of those who followed Him while on earth.
Hi @Frank Goad
REGARDING THE SCRIPTURE 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
I agree with @Thirza Fallen , @Brian2 and @Katzpur regarding the early Christianity where these verses referred to the spirits of the dead who were cognizant and communicative.
I also agree that in ancient Christian tradition, this world of spirits was the place where those who had not heard of Christ nor his gospel, received teaching from other spirits concerning the messiah and this mechanism of salvation.
Though the early judeo-christians describe the world of spirits (spirit world) differently than the later Roman Movements version of “purgatory”, the concept of there being a “world of spirits” after this life into which all go is authentic, early Christian tradition and it solves many of the theological dilemmas created by injustice and lack of opportunity we see inside mortality.
The early Christian decensus literature describes in great detail what the earliest Christians taught concerning the concept of a spirit world after death and what happens there.
VARIOUS TEXTS REFER TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD BY DIFFERENT NAMES
Some confusion is caused by translation since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words somewhat arbitrarily in their translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judao-christians.
ALL WHO LIVE AND DIE WENT TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT
In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.
The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ezra7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). Thus, such references refer to the vast early Christian decensus literature as an entire genre. .
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. The Testament of Abraham relates that at the death of Abraham, “the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (ToA (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
None of these references refer to the punishment of a fire filled "Hell" of later lore that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world.
Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).
For example, Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
SPIRITS THERE WERE COGNIZANT AND CONTINUED TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MORAL CHOICES AND EXPRESS FREE WILL
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example the Christian Enoch text describes the Prophet Enoch vision of Hades/Sheol, describing the concept that there are those there who teach moral law in the world of spirits.
Another example comes from the story of the sons of symeon who were dead but resurrected with others at the resurrection of Jesus.
This is referred to in Matthew 27:52 when, at the resurrection of Jesus, “ The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised and coming out of the graves after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.…”.
The sons of Symeon were among these who appeared to those in Jerusalem and in their story, they tell of being taught the gospel and of the patriarch and others who were with them in this world of spirits, being given the opportunity to hear the gospel and accept it.
Thus, in this early Christian tradition, the condition of the dead is not static. In the text, the passion of Perpetua and Felecity (a pagan who converted to early Christianity), Perpetual gives the example of her dead brother whose condition changed while in this world of spirits. It was by this mechanism those who had never heard of the gospel were able to have it taught to them.
Thus the reference in 1 Peter 4:6 that explains “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
It is such references the early literature was describing when, for example, when Jesus arose from the tomb, a loud voice was heard from the heavens."Hast thou preached unto them that sleep?" (Gospel of Peter).
I like the earliest and more original Christian traditions and teaching.
They make more sense to me and are more fair and more intuitive than many of the later Christian traditions.
Good luck coming to your own understanding as to what such historical references meant.
Clear
ακ/τωτζφιω
REGARDING THE SCRIPTURE 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
I agree with @Thirza Fallen , @Brian2 and @Katzpur regarding the early Christianity where these verses referred to the spirits of the dead who were cognizant and communicative.
I also agree that in ancient Christian tradition, this world of spirits was the place where those who had not heard of Christ nor his gospel, received teaching from other spirits concerning the messiah and this mechanism of salvation.
Though the early judeo-christians describe the world of spirits (spirit world) differently than the later Roman Movements version of “purgatory”, the concept of there being a “world of spirits” after this life into which all go is authentic, early Christian tradition and it solves many of the theological dilemmas created by injustice and lack of opportunity we see inside mortality.
The early Christian decensus literature describes in great detail what the earliest Christians taught concerning the concept of a spirit world after death and what happens there.
VARIOUS TEXTS REFER TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD BY DIFFERENT NAMES
Some confusion is caused by translation since, in describing the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment Both writers and translators of various early texts use many words somewhat arbitrarily in their translations, to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, PURGATORY, etc. (…sometimes "HELL" is used). The TERM “Purgatory” may be a later term, but the doctrine itself existed among the earliest Judao-christians.
ALL WHO LIVE AND DIE WENT TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD WHILE AWAITING RESURRECTION AND JUDGMENT
In the earliest version of this doctrine, All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc.
The “complainer” Ezra complains regarding the end of his life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ezra7:1) The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4). Thus, such references refer to the vast early Christian decensus literature as an entire genre. .
In this ancient theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. The Testament of Abraham relates that at the death of Abraham, “the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (ToA (recension A) 20:9,13-15)
None of these references refer to the punishment of a fire filled "Hell" of later lore that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, but Hades was also a name for this "spirit world.
Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous).
For example, Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.
SPIRITS THERE WERE COGNIZANT AND CONTINUED TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MORAL CHOICES AND EXPRESS FREE WILL
In this early doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they are cognizant and communicate and still have free will. Those spirits who had no idea nor concept of God’s plan for them are still allowed to learn and make moral choices just as those who had the gospel given to them while in mortality. They may make the same moral progress as any other individuals. For example the Christian Enoch text describes the Prophet Enoch vision of Hades/Sheol, describing the concept that there are those there who teach moral law in the world of spirits.
Another example comes from the story of the sons of symeon who were dead but resurrected with others at the resurrection of Jesus.
This is referred to in Matthew 27:52 when, at the resurrection of Jesus, “ The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised and coming out of the graves after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.…”.
The sons of Symeon were among these who appeared to those in Jerusalem and in their story, they tell of being taught the gospel and of the patriarch and others who were with them in this world of spirits, being given the opportunity to hear the gospel and accept it.
Thus, in this early Christian tradition, the condition of the dead is not static. In the text, the passion of Perpetua and Felecity (a pagan who converted to early Christianity), Perpetual gives the example of her dead brother whose condition changed while in this world of spirits. It was by this mechanism those who had never heard of the gospel were able to have it taught to them.
Thus the reference in 1 Peter 4:6 that explains “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
It is such references the early literature was describing when, for example, when Jesus arose from the tomb, a loud voice was heard from the heavens."Hast thou preached unto them that sleep?" (Gospel of Peter).
I like the earliest and more original Christian traditions and teaching.
They make more sense to me and are more fair and more intuitive than many of the later Christian traditions.
Good luck coming to your own understanding as to what such historical references meant.
Clear
ακ/τωτζφιω
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