The Spiritual and Metaphorical Importance of Fire

[The Sum of Awe]

Is it just me, or does the classical element of fire make a very find tool for spiritual construction? The warmness to resemble the warmness of God's love, the transferring of matter to gases to be spread out and find a new purpose, the turning point of human evolution, the tool that will attract the peaceful and detract the aggressive... The fact that it is used in most religious ceremonies means something to.

It seems as if fire could be some sort of 'portal' if you will, a more direct way to communicate with the divine.

Perhaps the most important aspect of a ritual is fire. Anyone feel the same?

 

[ametist]

isnt it similarly true for water?

 

[Thruve]

Yes, and as ametist stated, Water as well =) More specifically the 'storm' including Waves, tides, currents, ocean, etc. I find however there's multiple meanings of them all, more specifically fire. Fire is the tool of the divine because within ones soul, its responsible for ridding of desire, or in other words, leaving one with nothing but eternal life, not of anything that pertains to this world, such as money, etc. Read the poem I wrote in my sig for a storm kind sir ;D a storm overall, not of its elements. Hope this helps!

 

[The Sum of Awe]

isnt it similarly true for water?

Perhaps for some, but not for me. Water, to me, is more about the mind form. Fire is connected to the spirit (as detailed in the OP), Earth is connected to the body, Water is connected to the mind, air is connected to the Omnipresent Qi, and Aether is God (The All In One). Greatest to least: Aether is: Earth begets Water begets Fire continues Qi.

Water thus has more to do with perception-based magic for me. Constructing my own (subjective) reality, editing it.

 

[Sees]

I used to do a meditation with a lit candle that I learned as a kid, focusing on

Warmth = Compassion, Love, Life

Light = Wisdom, Inspiration, Truth

I think it is very natural to have it as part of a religious tradition even though some will feel hesitation.

 

[Quintessence]

Well, as an Elementalist, the Four (including Fire) are obviously important in my path, but my understanding of them is much different than the angle you are taking on it here.

I suppose I will just say that I do not regard Fire as a "tool that will attract the peaceful and detract the aggressive" at all. By the classical understanding of the Four, Fire's principal quality is hotness, or that which separates out different things from a unity. It's a divisive, individuating force and Fire is the most warsome of the Four.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Well, as an Elementalist, the Four (including Fire) are obviously important in my path, but my understanding of them is much different than the angle you are taking on it here.

I suppose I will just say that I do not regard Fire as a "tool that will attract the peaceful and detract the aggressive" at all. By the classical understanding of the Four, Fire's principal quality is hotness, or that which separates out different things from a unity. It's a divisive, individuating force and Fire is the most warsome of the Four.

That part was actually the least symbolic. Fire is (although more often in primitive years) used to scare predators or insects for example, and gather humans. It therefore could be seen as something that unites friends and protects us from non-friends.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Yes, and as ametist stated, Water as well =) More specifically the 'storm' including Waves, tides, currents, ocean, etc. I find however there's multiple meanings of them all, more specifically fire. Fire is the tool of the divine because within ones soul, its responsible for ridding of desire, or in other words, leaving one with nothing but eternal life, not of anything that pertains to this world, such as money, etc. Read the poem I wrote in my sig for a storm kind sir ;D a storm overall, not of its elements. Hope this helps!

I'm not one to criticize how people use things symbolically, I am just curious: Is there anything in the nature of fire that makes you draw this connection (ridding desire, nothing but eternal life)?

 

[Thruve]

I'm not one to criticize how people use things symbolically, I am just curious: Is there anything in the nature of fire that makes you draw this connection (ridding desire, nothing but eternal life)?

A forest Fire will burn everything down in its path, leaving nothing but ashes and therefore nutrients for the ground, to which one day new life will grow. Symbolically, I apply that characteristic to fire of the soul. Often, one will find their desire burning, or in other words slipping away, preferably after one has already obtained that desire. After its burnt to ash, or in other words, you've let go of that desire, you regrow into new life. Like that of a burnt landscape, it takes time, but it happens nonetheless. They say the tool of the heaven is fire, and therefore not to hold onto the ways of this world, and this is often why ^ I find most don't correlate the two, but then again, many don't even believe in heaven or a life thereafter, so why correlate them. Those that have burned for desire know precisely what I'm talking about, those that haven't obviously will not.

 

[Quintessence]

That part was actually the least symbolic. Fire is (although more often in primitive years) used to scare predators or insects for example, and gather humans. It therefore could be seen as something that unites friends and protects us from non-friends.

Huh? What part is least symbolic?

Keep in mind that in accord with natural philosophy, Elemental Fire is not the same as physical fire. Physical fire is among the most appropriate representations of Elemental Fire because it's qualities are quite similar, but they're not the same thing. When one speaks of Fire (I use proper case deliberately to distinguish it from physical fire) in the context of natural philosophy, one is talking about a philosophical concept. Specifically, arche, or what the fundamental substances are that underly all of reality (to which other approaches are monism or dualism, for example). Empedocles proposed these were four, and the idea was expanded on by later philosophers, especially Aristotle. My understanding of the Four derives principally from Aristotle, but also other natural philosophers throughout history.

From that perspective, there is little doubt that Fire is the most warsome because of its qualities. Just as Elemental Fire doesn't refer to physical fire, when I say Fire's principal quality is hotness, I don't mean physical hotness either (as that's not what the philosophers meant). It basically means an active force that separates and differentiates. How I see physical fire is very much influenced by how I see Elemental Fire, which is why I have a hard time seeing fire's prevailing characteristics as... well... peaceful. Separation and division is the very fuel of conflict and war. Other things too, of course.

Elemental natural philosophy aside, if we're talking physical fire, I cannot overlook the fundamentally destructive nature of fire. Fire burns. Even when it is contained and controlled, it burns and destroys. The candle flame consumes the wax, the bonfire consumes the wood. And if you immerse your body in fire, you die. Fire is a tool of the aggressive. It is used as a weapon, and it forges weapons. I can't overlook things like that.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

A forest Fire will burn everything down in its path, leaving nothing but ashes and therefore nutrients for the ground, to which one day new life will grow. Symbolically, I apply that characteristic to fire of the soul. Often, one will find their desire burning, or in other words slipping away, preferably after one has already obtained that desire. After its burnt to ash, or in other words, you've let go of that desire, you regrow into new life. Like that of a burnt landscape, it takes time, but it happens nonetheless. They say the tool of the heaven is fire, and therefore not to hold onto the ways of this world, and this is often why ^ I find most don't correlate the two, but then again, many don't even believe in heaven or a life thereafter, so why correlate them. Those that have burned for desire know precisely what I'm talking about, those that haven't obviously will not.

Ah I see where you are coming from. It's reasonable. In contrast, for me personally, I see false-things (Ego/Individual Soul/Intellect - which lacks an element to identify it with in my symbolica because it is an illusion, there is no separate egos, only one ego for us all to identify with, no separate persons, that'd be Qi) as impermanent, but their reality is permanent they are reborn into different false things, but remain part of the actual Qi for all time. This is to view the burning as destroying something that never existed in the first place, it is the editing of the Qi, returning it to another purpose.

What is your take as viewing it as such? In short; the fire to symbolize not the destruction of anything (depending on whether or not you agree with me that separate things are an illusion) but rather the reconstruction of what always is there?

 

[Thruve]

Ah I see where you are coming from. It's reasonable. In contrast, for me personally, I see false-things (Ego/Individual Soul/Intellect - which lacks an element to identify it with in my symbolica because it is an illusion, there is no separate egos, only one ego for us all to identify with, no separate persons, that'd be Qi) as impermanent, but their reality is permanent they are reborn into different false things, but remain part of the actual Qi for all time. This is to view the burning as destroying something that never existed in the first place, it is the editing of the Qi, returning it to another purpose.

What is your take as viewing it as such? In short; the fire to symbolize not the destruction of anything (depending on whether or not you agree with me that separate things are an illusion) but rather the reconstruction of what always is there?

yea Ive heard theories that state we are born with nothing, and die with nothing, in which sense fire reconstructs everything in between, in the way you described, does support that. Yessir!

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Huh? What part is least symbolic?

Keep in mind that in accord with natural philosophy, Elemental Fire is not the same as physical fire. Physical fire is among the most appropriate representations of Elemental Fire because it's qualities are quite similar, but they're not the same thing. When one speaks of Fire (I use proper case deliberately to distinguish it from physical fire) in the context of natural philosophy, one is talking about a philosophical concept. Specifically, arche, or what the fundamental substances are that underly all of reality (to which other approaches are monism or dualism, for example). Empedocles proposed these were four, and the idea was expanded on by later philosophers, especially Aristotle. My understanding of the Four derives principally from Aristotle, but also other natural philosophers throughout history.

From that perspective, there is little doubt that Fire is the most warsome because of its qualities. Just as Elemental Fire doesn't refer to physical fire, when I say Fire's principal quality is hotness, I don't mean physical hotness either (as that's not what the philosophers meant). It basically means an active force that separates and differentiates. How I see physical fire is very much influenced by how I see Elemental Fire, which is why I have a hard time seeing fire's prevailing characteristics as... well... peaceful. Separation and division is the very fuel of conflict and war. Other things too, of course.

Elemental natural philosophy aside, if we're talking physical fire, I cannot overlook the fundamentally destructive nature of fire. Fire burns. Even when it is contained and controlled, it burns and destroys. The candle flame consumes the wax, the bonfire consumes the wood. And if you immerse your body in fire, you die. Fire is a tool of the aggressive. It is used as a weapon, and it forges weapons. I can't overlook things like that.

Yes, and I am basing the symbolism of elemental fire on the nature of physical fire, not considering them the same.

Physical fire, in its nature, brings people closer together and creates sharing, and at the same time it is used to scare away unwanted guests (some insects avoid its smoke, larger animals fear being burned, etc.)

I can understand why someone may not view fire as peaceful, it's all about how you're looking at it. Where I draw peace from fire is that it is a simplicity that simplifies - fire is simplistic (much power from easy creation) and it brings much more power to the one using it (like I said, detracting unwanted guests, attracting friendly guests, and needless to mention the power it withholds) Although it tends to be commonly associated with the destruction of things, it is certainly not limited to that. While fire itself may be destructive, the energy it gives off provides a LOT of abilities that aren't limited to destruction.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

For further understanding of what I'm talking about in post #4

Aether would be the Only Thing, it'd be God (literally everything). It is actually one element in itself that consists of sub-elements:

Earth would be the physical plane of existence (the body, earth, matter, energy) It is the fundamental plane of existence.

Water would be the mental plane of existence (mind, intellect, consciousness, memory, thoughts) It is created by physical processes (brain).

Fire would be the spiritual plane of existence (spirit, soul, lesser gods) It is created by mental processes (illusion).

Air would be the Qi that consists of one (Qi) It is pieced together by the combination of all things in the spiritual plane, it's built up spiritual existences, it is the reality of the spiritual reality, while the spiritual plane consists of multiple illusions of it. Some people know it as the Oversoul.

 

[Thruve]

Water would be the mental plane of existence (mind, intellect, consciousness, memory, thoughts) It is created by physical processes (brain).


Air would be the Qi that consists of one (Qi) It is pieced together by the combination of all things in the spiritual plane, it's built up spiritual existences, it is the reality of the spiritual reality, while the spiritual plane consists of multiple illusions of it. Some people know it as the Oversoul.

These two and their definitions are Very ironic given the symbolism I associate with them. By an Oversoul, are you referring to collective conscious? Like, all souls collectively as one, perhaps as some may see it, as its own deity or energy source responsible for conditioning energy. Im rather curious. I googled it and got a few different interpretations of it, but would rather a more in depth analysis of yours.

I could go days on end about water, lol.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

These two and their definitions are Very ironic given the symbolism I associate with them. By an Oversoul, are you referring to collective conscious? Like, all souls collectively as one, perhaps as some may see it, as its own deity or energy source responsible for conditioning energy. Im rather curious. I googled it and got a few different interpretations of it, but would rather a more in depth analysis of yours.

Yeah that's a good way to put it. Imagine it as the entire spiritual plane of existence as one, but because I consider the spiritual plane to be something like pure "perceiver" (similar to the consciousness in common understanding, but more specifically what is behind the consciousness, and then behind that). If you're referring to consciousness in such away, then I think collective consciousness is a way to say it.

I could go days on end about water, lol.

Water is very mystifying

 

[Thruve]

Yeah that's a good way to put it. Imagine it as the entire spiritual plane of existence as one, but because I consider the spiritual plane to be something like pure "perceiver" (similar to the consciousness in common understanding, but more specifically what is behind the consciousness, and then behind that). If you're referring to consciousness in such away, then I think collective consciousness is a way to say it.



Water is very mystifying

Gasp, elaborate. Im Rather curious as to the symbolism, if you've generated one, on water, other than the description you've provided above.