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The Superiority of Jewish Thought. Or What Christians can Learn from Jews.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Why would God go to such lengths to create a type and pattern of there being a mediator between man and God, through instructions to Moses, if this was not a picture of a higher spiritual principle of someone mediating on our behalf to remove our sin and restore access to God?

Again, this is a great question. And it has an answer. And I think I have a reasonable inkling of the answer. But I would like to know that we're on the same sheet of music concerning the problem the answer solves before trying to answer the question. How can Jesus be God and God be Jesus, and God be not Jesus too? That would require two Gods, the one that is Jesus, and the one that is not Jesus? God can't be a man and not a man at the same time; that's theoretically absurd.

. . . I realize they say it's inscrutable. But I think they're wrong. I think Judaism has already answered the question, or provided the framework for a Christian answer to the question.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I find the title of the OP distasteful...
though perhaps it's intent has a small degree of accuracy :rolleyes:

. . . I would say what you're calling distasteful is actually the after-taste still in your mouth from the meal of political correctness you were no doubt dining on just before taste-testing the titles of the threads in this section. Swish some root beer around in your mouth to remove the lingering taste of political correctness and then take another nibble at the title of the thread? . . . Let me know if you still find it a bit spicy? I could add a little salt. . . God forbid I get rid of the chametz. That'd leave the title bland as all hell. So bland in fact, that only Jews could stomach it. Then where would the thread be?


John
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
How can Jesus be God and God be Jesus, and God be not Jesus too? That would require two Gods, the one that is Jesus, and the one that is not Jesus? God can't be a man and not a man at the same time; that's theoretically absurd.

We have a body, soul, and spirit.
How can your spirit, soul, and your body all be considered you while also being recognized as different things?

How can your spirit be you, your soul be you, but your spirit not be your soul?

Are there really two or three different people involved in this arrangement, because your spirit is distinguished from your soul and body?

. . . I realize they say it's inscrutable. But I think they're wrong. I think Judaism has already answered the question, or provided the framework for a Christian answer to the question.

The incarnation of God is actually necessary to make sense of a lot of what we see in OT scripture, where it is said that no one has seen God, and no one even can see God and live, yet at the same time we have several examples of people who do see God and live; And examples of God interacting with people in the real world, such as when YHVH sits down with Abraham to have a meal.

You cannot see God the Father, but you can see His Son, Jesus, through which He is revealed to us. John 14:9

Again, this is a great question. And it has an answer. And I think I have a reasonable inkling of the answer. But I would like to know that we're on the same sheet of music concerning the problem the answer solves before trying to answer the question.

The high priest symbolism as a mediator, by your own definition, requires a mediator who is both man and God.

So if you can answer first the question of whether or not the high priest and tabernacle are symbolic of a mediator between man and God then you will have already answered your question about whether or not Jesus has to be both man and God.
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
The incarnation of God is actually necessary to make sense of a lot of what we see in OT scripture, where it is said that no one has seen God, and no one even can see God and live, yet at the same time we have several examples of people who do see God and live; And examples of God interacting with people in the real world, such as when YHVH sits down with Abraham to have a meal.
No its not.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
No its not.
A stunningly thorough and convincing counter argument.

If you have any real defense of how this apparent contradiction in Hebrew scripture is resolved without an incarnation of God through His Son I'd love to hear it.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
A stunningly thorough and convincing counter argument.

If you have any real defense of how this apparent contradiction in Hebrew scripture is resolved without an incarnation of God through His Son I'd love to hear it.
In most cases its metaphor. Depending on the verse. Never G-d Himself.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
...
We see from scripture that not only was Jesus fully God Himself, lacking nothing about what makes God who He is; but He was also fully man in the sense of experiencing everything as a man would and having a real body born into this world.
...
How can that be?
Are you saying that Jesus, peace be with him, is omniscient? Why would he teach us the Lord's prayer
ie. our Father whom art in heaven etc. if Jesus was in fact God (or the Father)?

If Jesus is not "the Father", then he is not God!
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
I've hobby studied religion, emphasis on Christianity, for over 20 years.
I got interested when I attended a Christian college for one of my degrees.
It amazes me that there are Within Christianity, he counts 33,820 denominations:
From:philvaz.com/apologetics

Google for yourself.
One source estimates 40,000 all reading the SAME BOOK!:shrug::shrug:
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
In most cases its metaphor. Depending on the verse. Never G-d Himself.
Genesis 18, God Himself (God's name is used specifically here) meets with Abraham at his tent. Abraham provided water for them to wash their feet, food, and it says they ate. They talked together.

So what you're really telling me is you don't believe what the Bible says.
Genesis is full of content that is written as strait history, no different from the historical content of the rest of the Bible.

Once you open the door to saying some of the history of the Bible is metaphor, how do you not open the door to saying all of it is? How do you distinguish between genuine history in the Bible and metaphor posing as history?

If you're willing to say people's face to face encounters with God are all just metaphor, then everything in the Bible is up for grabs as being called a metaphor and there isn't a single statement in it that you can take as genuine history. At that point there would no reason for you to not claim the entire Bible is 100% metaphor, without any historical validity (if not for the fact that we do actually have archeological evidence showing it's validity). And that's not a position I've seen any Orthodox Jew take on the Bible.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Genesis 18, God Himself (God's name is used specifically here) meets with Abraham at his tent. Abraham provided water for them to wash their feet, food, and it says they ate. They talked together.
You are confused because tour Christian teachers have already taught tou that G-d is the three men. This is not true. G-d appeared to Abraham in a vision as He is wont to do and the three men are seperate entities.

So what you're really telling me is you don't believe what the Bible says.
Genesis is full of content that is written as strait history, no different from the historical content of the rest of the Bible.

Once you open the door to saying some of the history of the Bible is metaphor, how do you not open the door to saying all of it is? How do you distinguish between genuine history in the Bible and metaphor posing as history?
Its very simple. The Torah says that G-d has no image, no man can see Him and live, etc. So if someone is seeing something, it must not be Him. You don't realize that your translation alreaady incorporates numerous metaphors.

If you're willing to say people's face to face encounters with God are all just metaphor, then everything in the Bible is up for grabs as being called a metaphor and there isn't a single statement in it that you can take as genuine history. At that point there would no reason for you to not claim the entire Bible is 100% metaphor, without any historical validity (if not for the fact that we do actually have archeological evidence showing it's validity). And that's not a position I've seen any Orthodox Jew take on the Bible.
There are no face to face encounters with G-d because G-d has no face.
I take the position of every knowledgeable Orthodox Jew.
 
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Rise

Well-Known Member
How can that be?
Are you saying that Jesus, peace be with him, is omniscient?

The Bible says Jesus is God.
The Bible also says God is omniscient.

I don't think you would dispute the Bible concludes those two things, so on that premise I'll cite some verses that relate to this:

John 16:30
Matthew 11:27
Romans 11:33-34
1 Corinthians 2:10-11
1 Corinthians 2:6
John 1:48
John 8:57-58
Luke 9:47
Hebrews 4:12-13

Isaiah 40:26
John 1:3
John 1:10
Colossians 1:16
Daniel 2:22


Why would he teach us the Lord's prayer
ie. our Father whom art in heaven etc. if Jesus was in fact God (or the Father)?

If Jesus is not "the Father", then he is not God!

John 10:30
John 14:6-9
Matthew 11:27

You cannot read the Lord's prayer in isolation. The weight of all scripture firmly establishes that Jesus is God.

In that context, we don't need to read Matthew 6 as Jesus trying to direct people's prayer away from Himself when He teaches them how to pray.
 
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McBell

Unbound
. . . I would say what you're calling distasteful is actually the after-taste still in your mouth from the meal of political correctness you were no doubt dining on just before taste-testing the titles of the threads in this section. Swish some root beer around in your mouth to remove the lingering taste of political correctness and then take another nibble at the title of the thread? . . . Let me know if you still find it a bit spicy? I could add a little salt. . . God forbid I get rid of the chametz. That'd leave the title bland as all hell. So bland in fact, that only Jews could stomach it. Then where would the thread be?


John
**climbs into rubber raft**

Did I get any of it on me?
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
. . . I would say what you're calling distasteful is actually the after-taste still in your mouth from the meal of political correctness you were no doubt dining on just before taste-testing the titles of the threads in this section. Swish some root beer around in your mouth to remove the lingering taste of political correctness and then take another nibble at the title of the thread? . . . Let me know if you still find it a bit spicy? I could add a little salt. . . God forbid I get rid of the chametz. That'd leave the title bland as all hell. So bland in fact, that only Jews could stomach it. Then where would the thread be?


John

... are you real?
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
You are confused because tour Christian teachers have already taught tou that G-d is the three men. This is not true. G-d appeared to Abraham in a vision as He is wont to do and the three men are seperate entities.

Genesis 18:1. YHVH appears to Abraham in his tent.


Genesis 18:9-15 and Genesis 18:16-17
1. This is not just a vision to Abraham.
YHVH spoke to Sarah as part of the same conversation.
YHVH contextually appears to speak to the whole group, asking if He should hide what He will do from Abraham.

2. One of the men say that they will return in a years time and Sarah and will have a child.
Then YHVH says as part of the same conversation that He will return in a year and they will have a child.
It can be read as confirmation that this is the same man.

Then, finally, we see Genesis 18:22 and Genesis 19:1
This clearly gives an indication that the third man was God, otherwise we would expect to see a third angel visiting Sodom. Instead we see only two angels.


Its bery simple. The Torah says that G-d has no image, no man can see Him and live, etc. So if someone is seeing something, it must not be Him.
....
There are no face to face encounters with G-d because G-d has no face.

Exodus 24:9-11
Exodus 33:11
Numbers 12:8-10
Judges 13:3, Judges 13:17-18, Judges 13:21-23
1 Samuel 3:21
Genesis 32:30
Genesis 16:7, Genesis 16:13
Genesis 26:24
Genesis 28:13,
Judges 6:12
1 Kings 11:9

You have to dismiss a lot of instances in the Bible as metaphorical to claim no one has had a face to face encounter with God.
Some are more clear than others as being more than just visions, as they involve physical interaction.

Notice how there is an expectation among people that they cannot see God and live, yet they know they have seen God.

This is consistent with what we see in the New Testament, where Jesus reveals to the Father to us, being the Word of God made flesh. Through Jesus we see God without actually seeing Him directly. Jesus affirms that no one has seen or known God, yet He also states that through Himself we can.

You don't realize that your translation alreaady incorporates numerous metaphors.

You'd have to explain what you mean by that.

I take the position of every knowledgeable Orthodox Jew.

Claiming that all appearances of God in the Bible are just abstract visions is different from claiming that accounts of men meeting with God are merely metaphors. The later implies that there is no historicity to the accounts, but they are just fables meant to illustrate spiritual principles. The later is not a position I've ever seen an Orthodox Jew take concerning the Scripture.
 
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Tumah

Veteran Member
Genesis 18:1. YHVH appears to Abraham in his tent.
Yes. And after verse one comes verse two, when the three men appear. First G-d appeared, then the three men. Verse one and verse two.

Genesis 18:9-15 and Genesis 18:16-17
1. This is not just a vision to Abraham.
YHVH spoke to Sarah as part of the same conversation.
YHVH contextually appears to speak to the whole group, asking if He should hide what He will do from Abraham.
Verse 1 - G-d appears on scene.
Verse 2 - Three men appear on scene.
Verse 3 - Abraham runs to greet the three men.
Verses 4, 5 - Abraham offers some Middle Eastern hospitality. The three men accept.
Verses 6-8 - Abraham gathers the team together to start the meal.
Verse 9 - The three men ask Abraham about the whereabouts of his wife. Abraham responds.
Verse 10 - One man says that he will return next year for the birth of the new baby
Verse 11 - Narrator tells us that Abraham and Sara were passed childbearing age.
Verse 12 - Sarah has a laughing fit.
Verse 13, 14 - G-d asks why Sarah is laughing.
Verse 15 - Sarah denies it. G-d disagrees.
Verse 16 - The men leave.
Verse 17 - G-d begins a new conversation

2. One of the men say that they will return in a years time and Sarah and will have a child.
Then YHVH says as part of the same conversation that He will return in a year and they will have a child.
It can be read as confirmation that this is the same man.
No. G-d doesn't say this. One of the men says this. The men are obviously angels (who are described as men in other places) speaking on behalf of G-d. So when Sarah laughs at what one of them says, G-d immediately asks why Sarah doesn't believe His messenger.

The, finally, we see Genesis 18:22 and Genesis 19:1
This clearly gives an indication that the third man was God, otherwise we would expect to see a third angel visiting Sodom.
These two verse prove that the three and G-d are not the same. When the verses speaks about all three angels together it says, "they" or "the men". When it wants to describe an action taken by only two of the angels, it says "and the two angels". It doesn't say "and the two men/angels got up from there (16)/ turned from there (22)" It says "and the men..." Because that's how it describes all three angels. The reason why there are only two angels visiting Sodom, is because the extra angel had already fulfilled his job by Abraham (1). The other two would now go onto save Lot (1) and destroy Sodom (1).

Exodus 24:9-11
They saw a metaphor for G-d in His administration as G-d of Israel.
Exodus 33:11
This is a metaphor for the ease with which Moses spoke to G-d as opposed to other prophets who had their prophecy through visions and dreams. Moses could speak to G-d at any time without requiring a visit from someone who isn't right by his face.
Numbers 12:8-10
This is a reference to Ex. 33:23. Where again Moses doesn't see G-d, but His administration called "G-d's back". This is a metaphor for a less clear understanding of G-d's administration, just as when one speaks to another face to face, one can see his facial expression which presents a clearer understanding of the other. As opposed to hearing someone whose back is turned, where you can still understand the person, but not as deeply.
Judges 13:3, Judges 13:17-18, Judges 13:21-23
These are angels.
1 Samuel 3:21
This means, in prophecy.
Genesis 32:30
This is an angel.
Genesis 16:7, Genesis 16:13
So are these.
Genesis 26:24
In a dream. Not with a body.
Genesis 28:13,
G-d's presence.
Judges 6:12
This is an angel.
1 Kings 11:9
In prophecy. His presence.

You have to dismiss a lot of instances in the Bible as metaphorical to claim no one has had a face to face encounter with God.
Nothing is dismissed. Everything is explained.
Some are more clear than others as being more than just visions, as they involve physical interaction.
None.

Notice how there is an expectation among people that they cannot see God and live, yet they know they have seen God.
When they see an incredibly spiritual sight, they assume that they will die. In all three cases they are wrong, because they aren't seeing G-d, but a vision that G-d intends for them to see that is not G-d, yet still very spiritual.
This is consistent with what we see in the New Testament, where Jesus reveals to the Father to us, and is the Word of God made flesh.
This statement makes no sense.

You'd have to explain what you mean by that.
Does G-d have a long nose (Ex. 34:6)? Does He carry a rucksack filled with sins on His back (34:7)? Is the cure for the Israelites a hot compress to the neck (Ex. 32:9)? Is G-d's finger made of lice (Ex. 8:15) and did the magicians actually see a big licey finger descend from heaven? etc. etc.

Claiming that all appearances of God in the Bible are just abstract visions is different from claiming that accounts of men meeting with God are merely metaphors. The later implies that there is no historicity to the accounts, but they are just fables meant to illustrate spiritual principles. The later is not a position I've ever seen an Orthodox Jew take concerning the Scripture.
I did not claim that the accounts of men having visions are metaphors, but what the men perceived were metaphors.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
We have a body, soul, and spirit.
How can your spirit, soul, and your body all be considered you while also being recognized as different things? How can your spirit be you, your soul be you, but your spirit not be your soul? . . . Are there really two or three different people involved in this arrangement, because your spirit is distinguished from your soul and body?

. . . At best, the soul and spirit are parts of me. The soul can't be me in itself, all alone. Nor can the spirit. The traditional understanding of the Trinity implies that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are independent and inter-dependent. The soul, spirit, and body, aren't like that.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The incarnation of God is actually necessary to make sense of a lot of what we see in OT scripture, where it is said that no one has seen God, and no one even can see God and live, yet at the same time we have several examples of people who do see God and live; And examples of God interacting with people in the real world, such as when YHVH sits down with Abraham to have a meal. . . You cannot see God the Father, but you can see His Son, Jesus, through which He is revealed to us. John 14:9

Why can we see the Father through the Son, but not see the Father himself (or the Son through the Father)? If the Father can manifest himself through the Son, why can he not manifest himself apart from the Son? Does the Father exist apart from the Son?


Dan
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
. . . At best, the soul and spirit are parts of me. The soul can't be me in itself, all alone. Nor can the spirit.
The traditional understanding of the Trinity implies that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are independent and inter-dependent. The soul, spirit, and body, aren't like that.
The scripture never says they are independent.
It says they are the same being.

In the same way, I don't claim the soul and spirit are independent of each other, but they are the same being.
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
Why can we see the Father through the Son, but not see the Father himself (or the Son through the Father)? If the Father can manifest himself through the Son, why can he not manifest himself apart from the Son? Does the Father exist apart from the Son?
That gets into the issue symbolized in the tabernacle service.
You cannot approach God in unholiness and see Him.
Matthew 5:8
 
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