The Superiority of Jewish Thought. Or What Christians can Learn from Jews.

[John D. Brey]

If Jesus could be God, that means that a man can be God which opens up a whole can of worms. . . eg. why Jesus and not Moses or Buddha or Singh? More to the point, Almighty God created mankind, which means that effectively He made Himself .. which to me is pretty meaningless

Good points, and legitimate questions. . . Why do you assume that there aren't fitting answers to your questions?

Well .. what are these fitting answers, then?

Speaking monotheistically, the God who transcends his creation is neither a thing, nor a personality, or like anything in creation. He's a Spirit that transcends things in space and time. . . An entity like that can't have a on-to-one union or relationship with anything in the space and time he creates. Therefore, Rabbi Luria, dealing with this real issue, came up with the concept of "tzimtzum." God must divest himself of his Spirit and enter into his creation in a manner that makes him one with his creation. Christianity teaches a similar doctrine called "kenosis." God divests himself of his deity to become a creature, like unto other creatures.

God's Spirit still holds the atoms together, and is the source for all that is, but God's personality, his person, is indeed a creature. Nothing more, nothing less. The personhood of God creates the problem of the unity, or relationship, between God's otherly Spirit (outside of all that He creates) and God's personhood? In the same way that God's Spirit can't have a direct personal relationship with any creature without his infinite otherness annihilating the creature, neither could God's Spirit have a direct personal relationship even with his own humanity, the human who is God become man.

Judaism recognizes the problem (impossibility) of a man who is God uniting with his own Deity, his own Spirit, but Judaism tends to paper over the other problem: that without becoming a creature, God cannot have a personal relationship with anything inside what he creates. There has to be a solution to how God can become a creature, and yet know, as the creature, that, notwithstanding the fact that the creature is creaturely through-and-through, true humanity, he's also God, divested of his Spirit, for the sake of uniting God with mankind.

If a man, a real man, were capable of intuiting that he's God, divested of all Deity, but nevertheless God, he would be able to transform the world not through his Deity, or the power of his Deity (since he can't have contact with that) but through the "knowledge" that his Deity would not have incarnated into man (him) without providing a means for the man to accomplish all that God chose to accomplish in creation by means of a mere man.

Where the foregoing is understood (so to say) two key questions remain. How could God reveal himself to his humanity without compromising the integrity of the absolute distinction between Deity and humanity, and, secondly, having accomplished that, how does his humanity, if it intuits its problematic relationship to Spirit/Deity, accomplish the will and purpose of the Spirit by means of nothing but flesh and blood? -----Unfortunately this is all a mere laying of the groundwork toward the answer to your good and legitimate questions . . . and yet this groundwork must be in place before an answer to your questions could even make sense, or illicit a fitting response.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

Why can we see the Father through the Son, but not see the Father himself (or the Son through the Father)? If the Father can manifest himself through the Son, why can he not manifest himself apart from the Son? Does the Father exist apart from the Son?

That gets into the issue symbolized in the tabernacle service. . .You cannot approach God in unholiness and see Him. Matthew 5:8

How, in the tabernacle service, does the high priest become holy such that he can enter into the most holy place? And once in the most holy place, does he see God? Or is God hidden in darkness even when one is in his Presence? . . . Beyond that, what does it mean that God's Presence, that's in the darkness on Mount Sinai, journeys away from his throne, on Mount Sinai, and enters into the congregation of Israel to journey with them through the exodus between Egypt and the Promised Land? If God is in the tabernacle, who is in heaven? If the tabernacle, or the most holy place of the tabernacle, represents heaven, what does it mean that heaven is found among the Israelites wherever they're found?



John

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If this is not a symbolic picture of there being a mediator between fallen man and God, then what would be?

Ah, but is it just self-serving? There is a story in the bible, maybe it was Daniel or something, where priests were found to be "false" because they were eating the sacrifices in private and telling everyone else the gods did it. What makes you think it wasn't happening in the Temple? God's ominpresent, yes? To monopolize ritual is surely just a way of monopolizing the money, which is why they got irritated when kings were invented in the first place. It's not like there weren't corrupt priests in the Temple, you know. No one should need another to reach God. Just ... you know ... PRAY. God will either answer or not.

The incarnation of God is actually necessary to make sense of a lot of what we see in OT scripture, where it is said that no one has seen God, and no one even can see God and live, yet at the same time we have several examples of people who do see God and live; And examples of God interacting with people in the real world, such as when YHVH sits down with Abraham to have a meal.

You cannot see God the Father, but you can see His Son, Jesus, through which He is revealed to us. John 14:9

Or we could admit that God's attributes evolved from being a superpowered person of some sort with the implication a couple of fruit trees can make you gods, like in many cultures with magical food or drink or lakes or whatever, to a High God aloof in His interaction with humanity, ignoring most everybody except for a few.

You said your soul and spirit are not independent.

Personally, I think "soul" and "spirit" are just arbitrarily defined as different to keep a false trinity concept. I believe we are body and mind/spirit/self. I see at most two, not three.

The Son reveals the Father to us.

But Jesus wasn't in the OT, so Jesus isn't needed for God to reveal Himself.

If Jesus could be God, that means that a man can be God which opens up a whole can of worms

It's why God is angry with Adam and Eve: by eating some magic fruit, you can develop godly powers. God, especially the character as portrayed in Genesis, loathes the idea we could ever become like Him. That response only makes sense if it were possible.

John 14:11-12
John 8:12-20
John 8:23-30
John 8:37-47

What if we don't care what John thought because hardly anyone agrees with him throughout the bible?

The 2nd century apologist writings do the same.

Apologists usually apologize because they're wrong.

There is no implication that man can become gods based on the Bible.

Ever read this story of a boy and his trans sister eating some magic fruit and getting in trouble for it?

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
Judaism recognizes the problem (impossibility) of a man who is God uniting with his own Deity, his own Spirit, but Judaism tends to paper over the other problem: that without becoming a creature, God cannot have a personal relationship with anything inside what he creates. There has to be a solution to how God can become a creature, and yet know, as the creature, that, notwithstanding the fact that the creature is creaturely through-and-through, true humanity, he's also God, divested of his Spirit, for the sake of uniting God with mankind.
...

That makes no sense. Who is it that 'breathes' our souls/spirits into us other than Almighty God?
Almighty God does not need to become a creature to communicate with us .. He chooses from among mankind to give us examples ie. prophets
There is no need for God to create 'a perfect man' by installing Himself .. in fact God could not have His qualities and be a man simultaneosly .. it would be logically impossible.

Almighty God guided mankind from the time of Adam, peace be with him .. so why did God not be 'a man' to save them? It makes no sense to me

 

[John D. Brey]

Almighty God does not need to become a creature to communicate with us .. He chooses from among mankind to give us examples ie. prophets.

. . . A prophet is a mediated form of communication from God. We must trust that the prophet is being true to God and not adding his own gloss? Why could God not speak directly with us? What's the purpose of his message being mediated through a living prophets, or a dead text?



John

 

[muhammad_isa]

. . . A prophet is a mediated form of communication from God. We must trust that the prophet is being true to God and not adding his own gloss? Why could God not speak directly with us? What's the purpose of his message being mediated through a living prophets, or a dead text?

First of all we have to establish that Almighty God does not leave us without guidance..
There is evidence to suggest that we have guidance eg. through the Bible and/or Quran
If He didn't, it would be very hard for mankind to be civilised .. the great civilsations have evolved through inspiration from God

If Almighty God spoke to all humans, this life would be totally different .. our "supervisor" ie. God, wishes us to grow in wisdom and righteousness, and only "interfere" on occasions of His choosing.

 

[John D. Brey]

First of all we have to establish that Almighty God does not leave us without guidance..
There is evidence to suggest that we have guidance eg. through the Bible and/or Quran
If He didn't, it would be very hard for mankind to be civilised .. the great civilsations have evolved through inspiration from God

If Almighty God spoke to all humans, this life would be totally different .. our "supervisor" ie. God, wishes us to grow in wisdom and righteousness, and only "interfere" on occasions of His choosing.

My question is why God can't make his Presence seen and speak to everyone who wants to listen face-to-face? Why does God hide behind sacred texts and sacred prophets? Couldn't he just appear, in all his glory, and speak to mankind? . . . Things I said in earlier messages took it for granted that readers understood that God can't just manifest, and thus doesn't. But since you don't seem to think that way, I ask you why he doesn't just manifest his Presence so that there's no mistaking his power, authority, and intent?



John

 

[muhammad_isa]

My question is why God can't make his Presence seen and speak to everyone who wants to listen face-to-face?

Almighty God is not "a person", so 'face to face' is meaningless in that context

...
Things I said in earlier messages took it for granted that readers understood that God can't just manifest, and thus doesn't. But since you don't seem to think that way, I ask you why he doesn't just manifest his Presence so that there's no mistaking his power, authority, and intent?

There is no mistaking His power .. He guides whomsoever He wills and sends astray whomsoever He wills.
The most important thing in a human being is their sincerity and intention. Almighty God does not have to speak to us all individually .. He knows what's in our minds, and is closer to us than our jugular vein.
We need to take 'steps' towards God to become enlightened .. He also gave us intelligence to use. but intelligence alone is not enough to understand

Our lives are spiritual journeys .. some people take their society's religion as belonging to them, but we should be prepared to spiritually ascend, and possibly change our creed/faith in sincerity .. so Almighty God can cause people to be sincere Christians or Muslims etc, and accepts sincerity rather than a particular creed, imo

 

[John D. Brey]

Almighty God is not "a person", so 'face to face' is meaningless in that context . . .
There is no mistaking His power .. He guides whomsoever He wills and sends astray whomsoever He wills.
The most important thing in a human being is their sincerity and intention. Almighty God does not have to speak to us all individually .. He knows what's in our minds, and is closer to us than our jugular vein.
We need to take 'steps' towards God to become enlightened .. He also gave us intelligence to use. but intelligence alone is not enough to understand

Our lives are spiritual journeys .. some people take their society's religion as belonging to them, but we should be prepared to spiritually ascend, and possibly change our creed/faith in sincerity .. so Almighty God can cause people to be sincere Christians or Muslims etc, and accepts sincerity rather than a particular creed, imo

I agree with most of what you you say. And you've said it very well. . . Nothing I would say would be contrary to the spirit of what you're saying. But I still wonder what you think God is such that he either can't, or chooses not to manifest himself in a physical, visible, empirical, manner . . . but instead comes to us only through somewhat subjective prophetic utterances subject to multiple interpretations? Why does he come to us in texts (Tanakh, Gospels, Korah) rather than appearing to hundreds, thousands, or millions of his servants speaking to them face-to-face?


John

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why does he come to us in texts (Tanakh, Gospels, Korah) rather than appearing to hundreds, thousands, or millions of his servants speaking to them face-to-face?

I've already said .. 'face to face' is pretty meaningless..
I suppose you mean why doesn't God manifest Himself as a human being? Why would He? He isn't one

There have been hundreds of thousands of prophets throughout time .. Almighty God does what He wills, and makes the truth manifest to us. Be sure .. if the truth were not out there, God would make it known.

Jesus, son of Mary , peace be with him, will eventually return as Messiah .. the way things are going. it looks like the time is very close .. there is much confusion and corruption world-wide

 

[John D. Brey]

I've already said .. 'face to face' is pretty meaningless..
I suppose you mean why doesn't God manifest Himself as a human being? Why would He? He isn't one

There have been hundreds of thousands of prophets throughout time .. Almighty God does what He wills, and makes the truth manifest to us. Be sure .. if the truth were not out there, God would make it known.

Jesus, son of Mary , peace be with him, will eventually return as Messiah .. the way things are going. it looks like the time is very close .. there is much confusion and corruption world-wide

. . . Again, I agree with you in spirit. . . But it's not a real answer to my question to say that God is what he is and that's as it is. -----It's as if in a religious sense, people believe they must give up their human sense of understanding and just say God is as he is, and the world is as it is. . . And while that's ok, I don't believe we're being sacrilegious to take note of the state of affairs we find ourselves and God in and make sense of them to gain a greater theological understanding of God?

In his transcendence, God is not a creature. True enough. But must he speak through a creature (say a prophet) in a manner that's a Duke's mixture of what He would say, and what the prophet can understand and translate? Why could God not create a golem, or a speaking zombie, to speak to us directly, rather than through an intermediary? Why can God not put a prophet in a trance, and speak through him, as demons do in movies?

These are not silly questions. They're questions about the very nature of God, and his revelation to mankind.

Understanding these questions is foundational to good theology. And though the spirit of love and respect for God is important, and good, so is good theology. I would personally be inclined to say that love and worship of God apart from theology is quasi-idolatrous: that God wants us to come to understand him so that we can worship him for who and what he is, rather than for the fact that he is God. . . All we can know is that he is God through the kind of genuflecting worship of his divinity that doesn't attempt to do a systematic theology through which he can be known and better understood.

To worship God in his transcendence is idolatry since he can't be known in his transcendence. Since he can't be known in his transcendence, the worshiper is really worshiping his own willingness to bend before a God he knows not, or a God he knows only through a mediation he has no way to test against whether or not it's faithful to the transcendent God.


John