The Teachings of God/Allah

[paarsurrey]

Jesus was the Son long before He became a man. He was sent to be a man in the body God prepared for Him but I don't think the Father can be said to be Jesus biological Father.

Yes, it is a metaphor, G-d was never a biological father of Jesus. I understand it is a fiction created by Christianity having no roots in reality or Torah. Right, please?

Regards
_____________
The Sonship of Jesus Christ
https://www.alislam.org/book/christianity-journey-facts-fiction/

 

[firedragon]

Jesus was the Son long before He became a man. He was sent to be a man in the body God prepared for Him but I don't think the Father can be said to be Jesus biological Father.

Thats your belief. Its all good.

But that does not make the Jews believe God has a son as his "son", not just a representative on earth called son like David and Ephraim. Faith statements dont work like that.

Anyway, are you saying Jesus was always the son of God? Then was he born to God, adopted at a particular God or did he exist forever with GOd?

How could a Son who has to be born exist from the beginning with God?

 

[Brian2]

Yes, it is a metaphor, G-d was never a biological father of Jesus. I understand it is a fiction created by Christianity having no roots in reality or Torah. Right, please?

Regards
_____________
The Sonship of Jesus Christ
https://www.alislam.org/book/christianity-journey-facts-fiction/

The Sonship of Jesus the Messiah is rooted in the Hebrew scriptures even if the Jews took that sonship as more of a title and symbolic. That was one of the problems the Jews had with Jesus and what He was saying about who He is, the Son of God.
The Father and Son have a Father/Son relationship and the Son has been the Son from eternity, with the same nature as His Father and thus perfect. He also as a man is perfect.
The Son was sent to become a man under the Jewish Law to fulfil OT prophecies and to die for the sins of all mankind and bring God's Kingdom to the earth.
So God is now present on earth in His Church, those who have faith in Jesus.
Mary is the human who became the mother of the Son of God who was sent to earth to become a man. Mary is the one who supplied the humanity of Jesus, because of her humanity. She also gave Jesus a biological link to King David so that Jesus would be David's descendant.
Islam denies most of the Old and New Testament and so end up ridiculing what is in the Bible.

 

[Brian2]

Thats your belief. Its all good.

But that does not make the Jews believe God has a son as his "son", not just a representative on earth called son like David and Ephraim. Faith statements dont work like that.

Anyway, are you saying Jesus was always the son of God? Then was he born to God, adopted at a particular God or did he exist forever with GOd?

How could a Son who has to be born exist from the beginning with God?

The way I understand it is that the Son existed with and in His Father from eternity. They have a Father/Son relationship and the life of the Son comes from His Father.
I do not see the pre human Son as having been born, but when the Son was sent to be human, He ended up being begotten and born as a man then. So the eternal unbegotten Son became a begotten Son as a human.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Sonship of Jesus the Messiah is rooted in the Hebrew scriptures even if the Jews took that sonship as more of a title and symbolic. That was one of the problems the Jews had with Jesus and what He was saying about who He is, the Son of God.
The Father and Son have a Father/Son relationship and the Son has been the Son from eternity, with the same nature as His Father and thus perfect. He also as a man is perfect.
The Son was sent to become a man under the Jewish Law to fulfil OT prophecies and to die for the sins of all mankind and bring God's Kingdom to the earth.
So God is now present on earth in His Church, those who have faith in Jesus.
Mary is the human who became the mother of the Son of God who was sent to earth to become a man. Mary is the one who supplied the humanity of Jesus, because of her humanity. She also gave Jesus a biological link to King David so that Jesus would be David's descendant.
Islam denies most of the Old and New Testament and so end up ridiculing what is in the Bible.

" Sonship of Jesus "

Notwithstanding one's faith, which please enjoy and be happy with.
I understand, it be a fiction created by the Christians.
Christians should ponder, was Mary a wife unto the Christian-god and did Mary ever mention Christian-god as her husband? Right, please?

Regards
____________
[6:102] بَدِیۡعُ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضِ ؕ اَنّٰی یَکُوۡنُ لَہٗ وَلَدٌ وَّ لَمۡ تَکُنۡ لَّہٗ صَاحِبَۃٌ ؕ وَ خَلَقَ کُلَّ شَیۡءٍ ۚ وَ ہُوَ بِکُلِّ شَیۡءٍ عَلِیۡمٌ ﴿۱۰۲﴾
The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a son when He has no consort, and when He has created everything and has knowledge of all things?
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 6: Al-An`am

 

[firedragon]

The way I understand it is that the Son existed with and in His Father from eternity. They have a Father/Son relationship and the life of the Son comes from His Father.
I do not see the pre human Son as having been born, but when the Son was sent to be human, He ended up being begotten and born as a man then. So the eternal unbegotten Son became a begotten Son as a human.

So the son lived in God forever. Since the beginning? Then he is not the son because he existed with God? But you say he lived in him.

Then you say he was an "unbegotten son" since the beginning and became a Begotten Son later. If he became a begotten son later, how could he be an "Unbegotten son" before that? Where in the Bible is that said that he was ever an unbegotten son?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Sonship of Jesus the Messiah is rooted in the Hebrew scriptures even if the Jews took that sonship as more of a title and symbolic. That was one of the problems the Jews had with Jesus and what He was saying about who He is, the Son of God.
The Father and Son have a Father/Son relationship and the Son has been the Son from eternity, with the same nature as His Father and thus perfect. He also as a man is perfect.
The Son was sent to become a man under the Jewish Law to fulfil OT prophecies and to die for the sins of all mankind and bring God's Kingdom to the earth.
So God is now present on earth in His Church, those who have faith in Jesus.
Mary is the human who became the mother of the Son of God who was sent to earth to become a man. Mary is the one who supplied the humanity of Jesus, because of her humanity. She also gave Jesus a biological link to King David so that Jesus would be David's descendant.
Islam denies most of the Old and New Testament and so end up ridiculing what is in the Bible.

It can also be seen that the Father and Son are Station's given by God to the Messenger and that both the Father and the Son were and are with God from the beginning that has no beginning to the end that has no end.

Both the Son and the Father are the same Holy Spirit.

Thus it can also be seen all the other names of all the other Mesengers are also with God from the beginning until the end, they are all part of the First and The Last, the "I Am", as they all come from the same Holy Spirit.

This is the significance of the Virgin birth, Christ was telling us even though the Messenger is born of a Human mother, they are not born of the Spirit of this world, they are born of the Holy Spirit.

That is why Muhammad can say make no distinction between the Prophets, that is why humanity can accept that there is only One God and all the sheep Christ had that were not of the Christain fold can become one fold under One God.

Quran 3:84"....Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him....."

Christ tells us the flesh does not have any importance, as it is the Spirit of the Messengers, the Holy Spirit that gives us life. We born of the Human spirit find life when we are born again into Faith given by the Holy Spirit.

Regards Tony

 

[Brian2]

So the son lived in God forever. Since the beginning? Then he is not the son because he existed with God? But you say he lived in him.

Then you say he was an "unbegotten son" since the beginning and became a Begotten Son later. If he became a begotten son later, how could he be an "Unbegotten son" before that? Where in the Bible is that said that he was ever an unbegotten son?

We are human and we beget and have kids that way. Who said God had to do the same. Jesus said the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. This seems to have been how it always has been, but the Son is the Son because the life of the Son comes from the Father not because of any begetting, in a human sense. Some theologians call it eternal generation. To me it is just how it is. Imo time began with the creation and so anything "before" that is timeless,,,,,,,,,it just is.
Hard to work out, a bit like science and mathematics sometimes, but we don't have to understand it completely to believe it.
The Bible does not say Jesus was unbegotten before He became a human, but then again there is nothing about being begotten before then either.
Can a child be begotten more than once? Interesting question. Hard to explain or understand in human language and experience. One of the creeds says "Born of the Father before time began".
We do know that the pre human Jesus has always been in existence however as we are told that all things that came into existence, came into existence through Him. (John 1:3)

 

[Brian2]

It can also be seen that the Father and Son are Station's given by God to the Messenger and that both the Father and the Son were and are with God from the beginning that has no beginning to the end that has no end.

It cannot be seen in the Bible alone, just as Mormon theology and Muslim theology and JW theology cannot be seen in the Bible alone. It takes additions to and denials of and twisting of the scriptures to get these things.

Both the Son and the Father are the same Holy Spirit.

Thus it can also be seen all the other names of all the other Mesengers are also with God from the beginning until the end, they are all part of the First and The Last, the "I Am", as they all come from the same Holy Spirit.

This is the significance of the Virgin birth, Christ was telling us even though the Messenger is born of a Human mother, they are not born of the Spirit of this world, they are born of the Holy Spirit.

One analogy for God that I have is the analogy of us humans who have been made in the image of God. We are body, mind and spirit, we are 3 in one and each part is alive and communicates with the other parts.
There are no other Messengers/Christs/Prophets in the Baha'i sense,,,,,,,,,,,,at least not so Biblically,,,,,,,,,it all has to be added and so the understanding we get from the Bible alone needs to be changed.
The significance of the virgin birth is that it shows that Jesus is really the Son of God,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it is not just a title.

That is why Muhammad can say make no distinction between the Prophets, that is why humanity can accept that there is only One God and all the sheep Christ had that were not of the Christain fold can become one fold under One God.

Quran 3:84"....Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him....."

Christ tells us the flesh does not have any importance, as it is the Spirit of the Messengers, the Holy Spirit that gives us life. We born of the Human spirit find life when we are born again into Faith given by the Holy Spirit.

Regards Tony

I don't see Islam as speaking of the same type of Prophets that Baha'i wants to read into it.
Even our bodies are to be resurrected as immortal and incorruptible bodies. We are human and humans have bodies and we are not fully human without our bodies.

 

[Brian2]

" Sonship of Jesus "

Notwithstanding one's faith, which please enjoy and be happy with.
I understand, it be a fiction created by the Christians.
Christians should ponder, was Mary a wife unto the Christian-god and did Mary ever mention Christian-god as her husband? Right, please?

Regards
____________
[6:102] بَدِیۡعُ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَ الۡاَرۡضِ ؕ اَنّٰی یَکُوۡنُ لَہٗ وَلَدٌ وَّ لَمۡ تَکُنۡ لَّہٗ صَاحِبَۃٌ ؕ وَ خَلَقَ کُلَّ شَیۡءٍ ۚ وَ ہُوَ بِکُلِّ شَیۡءٍ عَلِیۡمٌ ﴿۱۰۲﴾
The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a son when He has no consort, and when He has created everything and has knowledge of all things?
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 6: Al-An`am

Jesus was born of a virgin and so He is called the Son of the Most High.
The way I understand it is that the denial of the good news of Jesus death and resurrection in fulfilment of Old Testament prophecies is a fiction. The gospel stories teach what happened to Jesus, by people who knew what happened. The Quran denies them and even the history of the historians in those days, that Jesus died. There is no good news (gospel) for humans without the death of Jesus. Christianity may as well not exist, as it would be a lie.

 

[firedragon]

We are human and we beget and have kids that way. Who said God had to do the same.

In that case why should God have a son in the first place?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Christianity may as well not exist, as it would be a lie.

It can exist and be in the same condition, that is exist and not be the Truth it once was.

Men usually do that with God's Messages.

Regards Tony

 

[Brian2]

In that case why should God have a son in the first place?

You ask questions I cannot answer. I could say that God did not have a Son since the Son was always with and in His Father just as God's Spirit is. I wonder what actually happens or changes in a timeless eternity. Certainly a triune God fits with the God being Love, since Love needs an object of affection or it would become narcissism.

 

[firedragon]

You ask questions I cannot answer. I could say that God did not have a Son since the Son was always with and in His Father just as God's Spirit is. I wonder what actually happens or changes in a timeless eternity. Certainly a triune God fits with the God being Love, since Love needs an object of affection or it would become narcissism.

Ive heard that argument about God needing an object but its an invalid argument. God was and is "creator" even before creation was performed he was still the creator. His nature does not change.

Anyway thanks for engaging. Have a great day.

 

[Brian2]

It can exist and be in the same condition, that is exist and not be the Truth it once was.

Men usually do that with God's Messages.

Regards Tony

The Gospel is the everlasting gospel (Rev 14:6) and is the everlasting covenant (Heb 13:20,21).
Some people want a different gospel and different covenant and want to do away with the everlasting gospel and covenant. As far as I can see they are all anti Jesus no matter how much they deny it or say nice things about Jesus.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Gospel is the everlasting gospel (Rev 14:6) and is the everlasting covenant (Heb 13:20,21).
Some people want a different gospel and different covenant and want to do away with the everlasting gospel and covenant.

The Jews say that before Christ, the Muslims say that after Christ, yet the Glory of God did enter through the Gate.

Yet there is another Covenant, that is promised by God.

Regards Tony

 

[Brian2]

The Jews say that before Christ, the Muslims say that after Christ, yet the Glory of God did enter through the Gate.

Yet there is another Covenant, that is promised by God.

Regards Tony

The Jewish Scriptures tells them of a New Covenant that God will make with them, this is the gospel the covenant Jesus brought in if you read it's description. (Jer 31:31-34) This is the faithful love promised to David (Isa 55:3) and Jesus is the one who sits on the throne of David forever. (Luke 1: 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”)
There is no covenant to replace the everlasting covenant.
Hebrews 13:20 Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Let's face it with Baha'i theology there are thousands of other covenants that God promised and it seems they all take the place of the previous ones whether the previous ones are eternal or not.
What I am saying is that Baha'i theology is a denial of the Bible teachings, just as Muslim theology is.

Baha'u'llah did not enter through the gate which was sealed shut before Baha'u'llah because God had gone through it, and that was Jesus who entered the temple through that gate when He rode in on Palm Sunday as the Christ and King. (Behold your King comes to you humble and riding on a donkey Zech 9:9).
It does not matter if the Bab is call the Gate, this is not the Gate spoken of in the scripture.
Ezekiel 44:1The man then brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary that faced east, but it was shut. 2And the LORD said to me, “This gate is to remain shut. It shall not be opened, and no man shall enter through it, because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it. Therefore it will remain shut.
>>>Closed by the Muslims in 810, reopened in 1102 by the Crusaders, it was walled up by Saladin after regaining Jerusalem in 1187. Ottoman Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent rebuilt it together with the city walls, but walled it up in 1541, and it stayed that way.<<<

 

[ajay0]

To the best of my knowledge, Allah is Arabic for God. I would conclude from that information that God and Allah are one and the same.

If that is correct, and one states they are following the teachings of God, are they also following the teachings of Allah? Or if one is following the teachings of Allah, are they also following the teachings of God?

If there is a difference, wouldn't that difference lie only in the prophets'/messengers' interpretation of these teachings, since God and Allah are the same being?

Allah is also considered as a name for God in the Dharmic sects of Sikhism and the
Prajapita Brahmakumaris.

I would put down the differences in teachings also to differences in time and space. The code of morality of the Jews were pretty primitive (compared to modern standards), with teachings of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and so on. Jesus improved and refined it with teachings of God being love, being merciful to the tormentor and so on.

Islam in its turn emphasized the equality and fraternity of all human beings both in precept and practice to a very large extent.

The Bahai religion emphasizes the universality of all religions and stresses harmony between them.

The monotheistic Prajapita Brahmakumaris emphasizes the empowerment of women as religious and social leaders and teachers, considering that they form half of humanity.

So the differences in teachings may also arise with time taking into consideration changed or evolved situations and circumstances, so as to bring about appropriate changes necessary for faster spiritual growth and transformation.

 

[Skywalker]

To the best of my knowledge, Allah is Arabic for God. I would conclude from that information that God and Allah are one and the same.

If that is correct, and one states they are following the teachings of God, are they also following the teachings of Allah? Or if one is following the teachings of Allah, are they also following the teachings of God?

If there is a difference, wouldn't that difference lie only in the prophets'/messengers' interpretation of these teachings, since God and Allah are the same being?

The Koran doesnt believe that Yahweh is the personal name of God. The Bible says not to add or subtract to God's words.

 

[Skywalker]

There is the same God in the Torah and New Testament.
The Quran and teachings of Baha'i are not teachings of God at all except on the surface.
The OT Mosaic Covenant was meant to be a short term one for the Jews and the New Testament Covenant set up by Jesus is meant for Jews and Gentiles and is an everlasting Covenant.
Other teachers come along and speak some wisdom and tell us to love each other etc and eveyone thinks it must be the same God but if we listen to how the Quran and Baha'i writings attack the gospel message and who Jesus is we can see that the same God cannot be involved.

People cant deny that Jesus existed and they cant deny all of his teachings, but they dont want to believe in a Creator and a Savior, so they believe Jesus to be a prophet, an enlightened man, an avatar, a wise man, or an enlightened master.