The term "religion of peace"

[KWED]

"There are traditions which relate that whenever a verse or group of verses was revealed to the Holy Prophet, he would send for one of the recorders and direct him to record the verse or verses indicating at the same time to which Chapter and where they belonged. This shows that at the time of receiving a revelation the Holy Prophet was also informed where the revealed verse or verses belonged."
Page-269 "Introduction to the study of the Holy Quran"
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf
Right?

Regards

Not strictly true. There are different ideas about how and when the Quran was arranged into its present form. A common one is that it was at the time of his death, on the instruction of the angel Jibril.
But whatever the reason, it seems an odd way to arrange it, by length or chapter, resulting in a somewhat disjointed and repetitive narrative.

 

[blü 2]

Already addressed this, and it DOES NJOT address the history of Buddhism.

Ah, I fear we're at cross-purposes.

My claim is the obvious one: that the members of all the religions I can think of offhand except the Quakers have a demonstrated history of warfare (and violent discrimination).

FALSE, and you apparently are ignorant of the history and culture of Japan dominated by Shinto, and the relationship to Buddhism in history. Buddhism has never been a political movement in Japan, again historically dominated by Shinto.

I fear you've misread what I wrote. I was responding affirmatively to your remark about Shinto in Japanese politics, from the early 20th century to and through WW2. Nothing I said on that subject was intended to refer to Buddhism.

UUs and Baha'is are NOT actively pacifists.

Thanks. (I'm not an active pacifist either.)

 

[shunyadragon]

Ah, I fear we're at cross-purposes.

I fear you have an aggressive anti-religious agenda, and also Buddhism has as a matter of has taken a backseat to Military Nationalism in the 19th and 20th century.. The history of Buddhism prior to the 19th and 20th century was by far dominantly peaceful, despite having governments that were not peaceful such as in China. Yes, in the history of China, like Japan Buddhism played not role in government.

My claim is the obvious one: that the members of all the religions I can think of offhand except the Quakers have a demonstrated history of warfare (and violent discrimination).

The Baha'i Faith and the Unitarians DO NOT have a history of warfare, violent discrimination nor non-violent discrimination.

Quakers still have the Bible on the podium with all its IEDs.

I fear you've misread what I wrote. I was responding affirmatively to your remark about Shinto in Japanese politics, from the early 20th century to and through WW2. Nothing I said on that subject was intended to refer to Buddhism.
Thanks. (I'm not an active pacifist either.)

I am a Baha'i and not a pacifist.

 

[blü 2]

I fear you have an aggressive anti-religious agenda, and also Buddhism has as a matter of has taken a backseat to Military Nationalism in the 19th and 20th century.. The history of Buddhism prior to the 19th and 20th century was by far dominantly peaceful, despite having governments that were not peaceful such as in China. Yes, in the history of China, like Japan Buddhism played not role in government.

The Baha'i Faith and the Unitarians DO NOT have a history of warfare, violent discrimination nor non-violent discrimination.

Quakers still have the Bible on the podium with all its IEDs.

I am a Baha'i and not a pacifist.

And I'm an igtheist and not a pacifist.

(Buddhism was the religion of Thailand by the 10th century or so. Some say it was the religion of the Thais many centuries before Thailand was founded. Its first great king was said to be Mengrai, ruling both sides of 1300, who enlarged Thailand by conquest of his neighbors. And though Buddhism had a couple of interruptions with kings who preferred animist religions, civil wars and wars with neighbors, Buddhist or otherwise, were reasonably frequent. European records from the eighteenth century show continual periods of wars for territory between Thailand, Laos and Cambodia (all Buddhist) and other neighbors to the north and east. And so on.)

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
paarsurrey said: ↑
Please mention/elaborate that "certain order", why think it was only a single order instead of some or more of them? Right?
One may like to read the following:

"There are traditions which relate that whenever a verse or group of verses was revealed to the Holy Prophet, he would send for one of the recorders and direct him to record the verse or verses indicating at the same time to which Chapter and where they belonged. This shows that at the time of receiving a revelation the Holy Prophet was also informed where the revealed verse or verses belonged."
Page-269 "Introduction to the study of the Holy Quran"
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf
Right?

Ok, I can accept that.

I still find it telling that Mohamed's first 12 years of prophethood were basically swept aside by inserting the 87th surah at the beginning. It gives an entirely wrong impression of events until then,

Thanks for accepting the point mentioned in my post. The point demonstrates that the chronological (let me say 'dis-order') may have some embellished academic value to some people yet it has hardly any value or no value as far as Quran is concerned. Right?

It is for this that no denomination of Muslims ever reads it ( the 'chronological dis-order') , recites it and memorizes it. Right?
The Quran in vogue is the same which is in our hands and which was in the time of Muhammad, and which we read, recite and memorize. Right?
If one is criticizing the 'chronological dis-order' then one is only wasting one's time and effort as it is irrelevant to Islam/Quran/Muhammad/Muslims, whatever the denomination of Muslim, please.Right?

Regards

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Regarding Islam meaning 'submission' which can in turn be taken as peace:
In the hypothetical ultimatum of either worldwide destruction from opposition or dystopian fascism from submission, which one is is more resemblant to 'peace'?

I find No world-wide destruction because the humble 'sheep' at Jesus' coming Glory Time are Not destroyed.
They will follow the advice recorded at Isaiah 26:20.
I find destruction is for those figurative haughty 'goats' at the time of separation as found at Matthew 25:31-33.
Since Jesus was Not a fascist, then submission to Jesus would bring Peace on Earth.
Jesus will have subjects/citizens earth wide as found at Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14.

 

[David Young]

Post #100: That looks like a circular argument to me. Islam forbids things that Islam defines as evil and mischief. If you then go on to define 'peace' as the absence of such 'evil and mischief' then you could call it peaceful no matter how violent it is in its attempts to bring 'peace'.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

Still did not respond to my post relevant to the facts of history and scripture that the ancient tribal Abrahamic religions do advocate violence against those outside the tribe, and the result that they are violent in history against those that do not believe. Yes the ancient European tribal religions were in violent conflict with the ancient Abrahamic tribal religions and were in fact cleansed from Europe.

The scriptures do not condone continued violence, the battles and genocide recorded in Abrahamic scripture are a set of finite solutions that were supposedly commanded by God. Ask me, some individuals of the ruling class at particular milestones throughout our history decided to record their greed wars against neighboring nations as though it were decreed by God as a commandment. While there was of course violence, I'm quite certain you underestimate the quantity of peoples who were peacefully assimilated.

This is not a bout the Nationalist/political conflicts in the world except when they have their roots in the ancient tribal religions.

I'm not sure if you've paid attention, but as far back as organized systems of religious structures go, is the roots of our 'political' systems of control and power. The primary leader (king or emperor) of most, if not all, nations were proclaimed to have been positioned there by God Himself. Religion is often an integral element to a nation's core doctrines, they may claim to keep the two separate, but I beg to differ.

 

[shunyadragon]

The scriptures do not condone continued violence, the battles and genocide recorded in Abrahamic scripture are a set of finite solutions that were supposedly commanded by God. Ask me, some individuals of the ruling class at particular milestones throughout our history decided to record their greed wars against neighboring nations as though it were decreed by God as a commandment. While there was of course violence, I'm quite certain you underestimate the quantity of peoples who were peacefully assimilated.

Unfortunately the scriptures do condone violence against violence as it is overwhelmingly witnessed in history.

Supposedly commanded by God??? The fact that the most believers do indeed consider the Bible literally as written by the guidance and commands of God. The ethnic cleansing and persecution of the Jews as a stark specific example.

Religious fundamentalism is indeed at the heart of much violence, wars and conflict in history and today. The violence and persecution of homosexuals and the LGBT community have the there roots in religious fundamentalism based on ancient tribal scripture and moral systems.

The rejection of science concerning evolution, global warming and the Covid pandemic are specific examples of the dark side of ancient tribal beliefs causing conflict today

I'm not sure if you've paid attention, but as far back as organized systems of religious structures go, is the roots of our 'political' systems of control and power. The primary leader (king or emperor) of most, if not all, nations were proclaimed to have been positioned there by God Himself. Religion is often an integral element to a nation's core doctrines, they may claim to keep the two separate, but I beg to differ.

Begging to differ does not help your case. The above justifies my view that the violence advocated in ancient tribal scriptures does indeed lead to the violence and conflict between governments and against people who believe differently in history and today.

Tribal nationalism the leads to wars conflict in history between religions is indeed rooted in scripture of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Your view is terribly naive concerning the nature of ancient tribal scripture and religions in history and today.

By the overwhelming evidence the ancient tribal religions cannot be remotely be considered religions of peace.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

The ethnic cleansing and persecution of the Jews as a stark specific example.

Hitler, if the Nazi's is whom you are referring here, believed the Aryan race were extraterrestrial and the offspring of ice giants from Niflheim or some whacky crap that got caught up in his drug addled and hate-filled mind.

Unfortunately the scriptures do condone violence against violence as it is overwhelmingly witnessed in history.

The Bible I've read does not condone violence against violence. The OT has 'successful' genocides within its pages, the lesson to any non-sociopathic mind being equivalent to understanding the time for war is behind us.

Religious fundamentalism is indeed at the heart of much violence, wars and conflict in history and today. The violence and persecution of homosexuals and the LGBT community have the there roots in religious fundamentalism based on ancient tribal scripture and moral systems.

The hate for homosexuals I cannot put to any logical terms, as I do not understand it or its roots. I do know the religions and practices that the Abrahamic faiths owe their roots to, did not show disdain towards that community.

The rejection of science concerning evolution, global warming and the Covid pandemic are specific examples of the dark side of ancient tribal beliefs causing conflict today

Most of the science prior to 50 years ago came from men of the cloth, I would wager that a majority of our most important theories and discoveries came from the minds of men who were also spiritual in one fashion or another.

Tribal nationalism the leads to wars conflict in history between religions is indeed rooted in scripture of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were atheist nations. The CCP is currently an atheist nation. Not all war is fought over the outcome of the events along the Lament, just the worst ones it would appear.

 

[shunyadragon]

Hitler, if the Nazi's is whom you are referring here, believed the Aryan race were extraterrestrial and the offspring of ice giants from Niflheim or some whacky crap that got caught up in his drug addled and hate-filled mind.

So what??? The writings of Martin Luther are blue prints of for Hitler holocaust. Do your homework, and many many Germans and in other countries in Europe willing participated.

Not just Hitler, but the longer history of the persecution and ethnic cleansing of JEws, based on and justified by scripture.

The Bible I've read does not condone violence against violence. The OT has 'successful' genocides within its pages, the lesson to any non-sociopathic mind being equivalent to understanding the time for war is behind us.

Your reading a selectively edited Bible. IT is a fact of history that religious conflicts, persecution and ethnic cleansing, and other violence against those that do not believe is history and based on scriptural beliefs.

[/quote] The hate for homosexuals I cannot put to any logical terms, as I do not understand it or its roots. I do know the religions and practices that the Abrahamic faiths owe their roots to, did not show disdain towards that community. [/quote]

It is not logical we are dealing with it is Biblical scripture. Read again the scripture does offer far more than disdain for homosexuality

Your Biblical vision through rose colored glasses is not coherent.

Most of the science prior to 50 years ago came from men of the cloth, I would wager that a majority of our most important theories and discoveries came from the minds of men who were also spiritual in one fashion or another.

Does not address the issue of science and religion concerning the Bible and religious beliefs. Please reread my post and respond.

The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were atheist nations. The CCP is currently an atheist nation. Not all war is fought over the outcome of the events along the Lament, just the worst ones it would appear.

Not relevant. The discussion is not concerning atheism, but ancient tribal religions and the violence, persecution and ethnic cleansing committed by Christian governments and individuals based on their scripture. The persecution and ethnic cleansing of Jews, and others who do not conform or believe has a much longer violent history in Europe than the Communist governments.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

I can sum up my position as "Don't hate the game, hate the player."

A reversal of the colloquial term, "Don't hate the player, hate the game!" which I disagree with completely. As an avid videogame player, I can tell you that there are exploits and actions considered anathema in every game. This includes the game of life, it's not the game's fault there are bad players.

The fault lies on ourselves if anyone, we must be diligent lest we fall to the darkness.

~~Thought experiment; If you were the soldier who counted a number of heads, then closed the iron door with an ultimatum.
A) Continue counting and closing to put scraps on the table for your family. B) Get shot in the head and replaced before your blood went cold.
Could you choose the former and live with yourself, or would you let your children and spouse down?~~

I would like to think myself a hero who would refuse, and die in honor... I'm not certain that is the case though, when the darkness encroaches from all around, it blurs the vision.

 

[shunyadragon]

I can sum up my position as "Don't hate the game, hate the player."

A reversal of the colloquial term, "Don't hate the player, hate the game!" which I disagree with completely. As an avid videogame player, I can tell you that there are exploits and actions considered anathema in every game. This includes the game of life, it's not the game's fault there are bad players.

The fault lies on ourselves if anyone, we must be diligent lest we fall to the darkness.

~~Thought experiment; If you were the soldier who counted a number of heads, then closed the iron door with an ultimatum.
A) Continue counting and closing to put scraps on the table for your family. B) Get shot in the head and replaced before your blood went cold.
Could you choose the former and live with yourself, or would you let your children and spouse down?~~

I would like to think myself a hero who would refuse, and die in honor... I'm not certain that is the case though, when the darkness encroaches from all around, it blurs the vision.

???? Not meaningful. Video games??? Fantasy is not reality. Read the whole Bible and the context in history without the selective rose colored glasses and video games.

Please respond to the subject of the thread and my post.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

Your Biblical vision through rose colored glasses is not coherent.

Luke 6:27-45

Does not address the issue of science and religion concerning the Bible and religious beliefs. Please reread my post and respond.

There is no rift to address, there are zealots in all communities. The fringe does not speak for the whole. The empty cup rattles the loudest.

Not relevant. The discussion is not concerning atheism, but ancient tribal religions and the violence, persecution and ethnic cleansing committed by Christian governments and individuals based on their scripture.

I disagree, I believe the discussion is regarding: The term "religion of peace". Your argument is against religion being capable of that, I merely intended to point out that you might be misconstruing what you perceive as traits of religion, with what is actually the traits of men. Wicked men at that.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

???? Not meaningful. Video games??? Fantasy is not reality.

Perhaps the countless thousands of players I have interacted with were robots, fooled me sure enough. I thought it was other humans I was socializing and interacting with.

Then again, if one were to accept the Simulation Argument, your point here is moot. For what is reality, but that which one perceives it to be?

Edit: But then... If those players were all robots, I imagine you're no less likely of being one than they. Logistically speaking.

 

[shunyadragon]

Luke 6:27-45



There is no rift to address, there are zealots in all communities. The fringe does not speak for the whole. The empty cup rattles the loudest.



I disagree, I believe the discussion is regarding: The term "religion of peace". Your argument is against religion being capable of that, I merely intended to point out that you might be misconstruing what you perceive as traits of religion, with what is actually the traits of men. Wicked men at that.

Not when it is based on the belief in the scriptures of ancient tribal religions.

You are still making vain effort to dodge the bullet of the reality of the scriptures in history or ahhh . . . you remain living in the deluded reality of video games. In reality simply a fantasy of 0's and 1s..

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

Not when it is based on the belief in the scriptures of ancient tribal religions.

What 'ancient tribal religions' and what 'ancient tribal scriptures' do you speak of? Any actual verses to provide, or just the same repetitive opinion? You seem to desire that I tag-team with you against the strawman that you have built... Do you speak of the Cholan Empire? The Hellenes? The Babylonians? The Akkadians? The Hittites? The Sumerian and their Anunnaki?

"I do declare, Frank! Present your argument in a realistic fashion, so that it may be considered more than a fantastical caricature worthy of the Burning Man festival!"

I posted a verse of the Bible that proves you incorrect in your strict opinion of what it says. You don't want a proper argument; you want to build strawmen to terrorize while you fling insults from a three-story-tall horse.

ahhh . . . you remain living in the deluded reality of video games. In reality simply a fantasy of 0's and 1s..

You seem to think there any REAL difference between the social environment of Massively Multiplayer Online video games and this forum. You are currently in precisely the same internet, using precisely the same text/chat that is available. Then again within the video game scenario, if one wished they could use actual VOICE communication, to truly create conversation. So, I guess this forum is hands down less based in reality than the videogames you seem to need to show disapproval towards.

Imagine if you were capable of understanding that this entire existence is no more than a dream/simulation... My oh my what realities would then be opened to your newly widened perceptivity!

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

Not when it is based on the belief

If I could give you a sliver of universal truth regardless your beliefs or ideals or opinion: "To get positive out, you must put positive in." or as Paul McCartney put it: "In the end, the love we take is equal to the love we make."

Peace be with you.

 

[shunyadragon]

If I could give you a sliver of universal truth regardless your beliefs or ideals or opinion: "To get positive out, you must put positive in." or as Paul McCartney put it: "In the end, the love we take is equal to the love we make."

Peace be with you.

Drifting further off subject in the fantasy world of video games, and delusions of 'toxic positivity.'

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

delusions of 'toxic positivity.'

Beware the dangers of the downward spiral wrought by negative thought:

"The nocebo effect might even be powerful enough to kill. In one case study, researchers noted an individual who attempted to commit suicide by swallowing 26 pills. Although they were merely placebo tablets without a biological mechanism to harm the patient even at such a high dose, he experienced dangerously low blood pressure and required injections of fluids to be stabilized, based solely on the belief that the overdose of tablets would be deadly. After it was revealed that they were sugar pills, the symptoms went away quickly." - an excerpt from a Smithsonian paper, link to source below.

What Is the Nocebo Effect? | Science| Smithsonian Magazine