The Theory of Evolution is supported by the evidence.

[Autodidact]

This thread is to discuss the Theory of Evolution. It is NOT about atheism or whether God created all things. In fact, for the purposes of this thread, let's all participants agree that God exists and created all things. The question we are addressing here, and the only question, is whether God created all living creatures and plants on earth in the way set out in the Theory of Evolution (ToE.) Even more, we're going to talk about the evidence for that theory, and why modern Biology accepts it and is based on it.

 

[Walkntune]

This thread is to discuss the Theory of Evolution. It is NOT about atheism or whether God created all things. In fact, for the purposes of this thread, let's all participants agree that God exists and created all things. The question we are addressing here, and the only question, is whether God created all living creatures and plants on earth in the way set out in the Theory of Evolution (ToE.) Even more, we're going to talk about the evidence for that theory, and why modern Biology accepts it and is based on it.

I ponder on the idea and I believe it is still iffy. I am not sure how mutations can bring about more information to an organism?I think if evolution is true, the science behind it now is way off course. I believe it would have more to do with energy changing form and trying to take a path of least resistance then anything biological.I believe physics would actually play more of a role and biology is just a symptom of the effects of energy.I believe the mind can do amazing things to the body. This is why certain lizzards and whatnot can keep itself from outgrowing its cage.
If evolution is true I believe it would be caused by mind more than accidental mutations.A bird needing a longer beak or a giraffe needing a longer neck? Overtime the necessity in the mind causes transformation.
I believe string theory is probably true and energy is cause of all material existence and is force driving it. For any biological chemical reactions to take place there must be a force.In the end there will be one universal theory for all energy and materialism and it will fit in one formula.

 

[Danmac]

This thread is to discuss the Theory of Evolution. It is NOT about atheism or whether God created all things. In fact, for the purposes of this thread, let's all participants agree that God exists and created all things. The question we are addressing here, and the only question, is whether God created all living creatures and plants on earth in the way set out in the Theory of Evolution (ToE.) Even more, we're going to talk about the evidence for that theory, and why modern Biology accepts it and is based on it.

Make your first point

 

[Autodidact]

Let's start with what it is, a scientific theory in the field of biology, that explains how we get the enormous diversity of species on earth. That is all, and is quite enough for a single theory.

 

[Autodidact]

I ponder on the idea and I believe it is still iffy. I am not sure how mutations can bring about more information to an organism?I think if evolution is true, the science behind it now is way off course. I believe it would have more to do with energy changing form and trying to take a path of least resistance then anything biological.I believe physics would actually play more of a role and biology is just a symptom of the effects of energy.I believe the mind can do amazing things to the body. This is why certain lizzards and whatnot can keep itself from outgrowing its cage.
If evolution is true I believe it would be caused by mind more than accidental mutations.A bird needing a longer beak or a giraffe needing a longer neck? Overtime the necessity in the mind causes transformation.
I believe string theory is probably true and energy is cause of all material existence and is force driving it. For any biological chemical reactions to take place there must be a force.In the end there will be one universal theory for all energy and materialism and it will fit in one formula.

Do you feel like you have a strong understanding of exactly what mutations are and how they happen? What do you mean by "information?" Why should mutations not be able to add it?

 

[Walkntune]

Let's start with what it is, a scientific theory in the field of biology, that explains how we get the enormous diversity of species on earth. That is all, and is quite enough for a single theory.

I say it is observed effects and not causes. The biological chemical reactions are observed effects from a force and not a cause but the effect of the transformation.Energy is the force of nature that is the culprit.
Einstein himself discovered this God of Spinoza.
"I believe," Einstein answered, "that energy is the basic force in creation. My friend Bergson calls it élan vital, the Hindus call it prana."

 

[RedOne77]

The question we are addressing here, and the only question, is whether God created all living creatures and plants on earth in the way set out in the Theory of Evolution (ToE.) Even more, we're going to talk about the evidence for that theory, and why modern Biology accepts it and is based on it.

Let's start with what it is, a scientific theory in the field of biology, that explains how we get the enormous diversity of species on earth.

But what exactly is the "way" that evolution puts forth? Are you talking about the mechanisms that drive speciation (essentially natural selection), or are you talking about everything coming from a single ancestor on the tree, bush, or web of life? Or both?

 

[Valjean]

I ponder on the idea and I believe it is still iffy. I am not sure how mutations can bring about more information to an organism?I think if evolution is true, the science behind it now is way off course. I believe it would have more to do with energy changing form and trying to take a path of least resistance then anything biological.I believe physics would actually play more of a role and biology is just a symptom of the effects of energy.I believe the mind can do amazing things to the body. This is why certain lizzards and whatnot can keep itself from outgrowing its cage.
If evolution is true I believe it would be caused by mind more than accidental mutations.A bird needing a longer beak or a giraffe needing a longer neck? Overtime the necessity in the mind causes transformation.
I believe string theory is probably true and energy is cause of all material existence and is force driving it. For any biological chemical reactions to take place there must be a force.In the end there will be one universal theory for all energy and materialism and it will fit in one formula.

Do you believe the many varieties of domestic plants and animals always existed, Walkintune, that selective breeding is a myth?

First, what does "more information" have to do with evolution? There's no need to add information to cause change, you only need to rearrange information.

Second, there are many well known how mechanisms that can add or subtract information. Whole chromosomes get added and deleted all the time, to say nothing for smaller genetic rearrangements.

 

[Walkntune]

Do you believe the many varieties of domestic plants and animals always existed, Walkintune, that selective breeding is a myth?

First, what does "more information" have to do with evolution? There's no need to add information to cause change, you only need to rearrange information.

Second, there are many well known how mechanisms that can add or subtract information. Whole chromosomes get added and deleted all the time, to say nothing for smaller genetic rearrangements.

Creationists and scientists debate whether new info is added during mutations.
For me it is neither here or there because I believe it is only an effect and not a cause.
The creative energy of all substance itself is the culprit.It is a constant force in the universe always changing in and out of form.Scientists always see effects as causes because they only see through sceptical lenses. If they treated energy as a cause instead of an effect it would reveal a whole different scenario.
What has the future in store for this strange being, born of a breath, of perishable tissue, yet Immortal, with his powers fearful and Divine? What magic will be wrought by him in the end? What is to be his greatest deed, his crowning achievement?
Long ago he recognized that all perceptible matter comes from a primary substance, or a tenuity beyond conception, filling all space, the Akasha or luminiferous ether, which is acted upon by the life-giving Prana or Creative Force, calling into existence, in never ending cycles, all things and phenomena. The primary substance, thrown into infinitesimal whirls of prodigious velocity, becomes gross matter; the force subsiding, the motion ceases and matter disappears, reverting to the primary substance.
Can man control this grandest, most awe-inspiring of all processes in nature? Can he harness her inexhaustible energies to perform all their functions at his bidding? more still cause them to operate simply by the force of his will?
If he could do this, he would have powers almost unlimited and supernatural. At his command, with but a slight effort on his part, old worlds would disappear and new ones of his planning would spring into being. He could fix, solidify and preserve the ethereal shapes of his imagining, the fleeting visions of his dreams. He could express all the creations of his mind on any scale, in forms concrete and imperishable. He could alter the size of this planet, control its seasons, guide it along any path he might choose through the depths of the Universe. He could cause planets to collide and produce his suns and stars, his heat and light. He could originate and develop life in all its infinite forms. Nikola Tesla

There is a creative force of energy that brought all things into existence and is the cause of any evolution that would exist. Mutations is the effect of this constant force in the universe that is even the cause of gravity as it acts on all bodies and substances.

 

[Nepenthe]

Creationists and scientists debate whether new info is added during mutations.

If by "debate" you mean creationists never really define what they mean by "information", or when pinned down and shown how ridiculous their definition is simply shift the goalposts. Mutations add info' to the genome, subtract info', or remain neutral (which is the most common result). We have several instances of empirical evidence on information increasing. In the example I've linked here there were two different intergenomic translocations cited in unisexual populations, with one presenting brand new chromosomes generated by an intergenomic reciprocal translocation. If that's not new genomic information then there is no definition that will ever appease a creationists ignorance.

For me it is neither here or there because I believe it is only an effect and not a cause.
The creative energy of all substance itself is the culprit.It is a constant force in the universe always changing in and out of form.Scientists always see effects as causes because they only see through sceptical lenses. If they treated energy as a cause instead of an effect it would reveal a whole different scenario.
What has the future in store for this strange being, born of a breath, of perishable tissue, yet Immortal, with his powers fearful and Divine? What magic will be wrought by him in the end? What is to be his greatest deed, his crowning achievement?
Long ago he recognized that all perceptible matter comes from a primary substance, or a tenuity beyond conception, filling all space, the Akasha or luminiferous ether, which is acted upon by the life-giving Prana or Creative Force, calling into existence, in never ending cycles, all things and phenomena. The primary substance, thrown into infinitesimal whirls of prodigious velocity, becomes gross matter; the force subsiding, the motion ceases and matter disappears, reverting to the primary substance.
Can man control this grandest, most awe-inspiring of all processes in nature? Can he harness her inexhaustible energies to perform all their functions at his bidding? more still cause them to operate simply by the force of his will?
If he could do this, he would have powers almost unlimited and supernatural. At his command, with but a slight effort on his part, old worlds would disappear and new ones of his planning would spring into being. He could fix, solidify and preserve the ethereal shapes of his imagining, the fleeting visions of his dreams. He could express all the creations of his mind on any scale, in forms concrete and imperishable. He could alter the size of this planet, control its seasons, guide it along any path he might choose through the depths of the Universe. He could cause planets to collide and produce his suns and stars, his heat and light. He could originate and develop life in all its infinite forms. Nikola Tesla

There is a creative force of energy that brought all things into existence and is the cause of any evolution that would exist. Mutations is the effect of this constant force in the universe that is even the cause of gravity as it acts on all bodies and substances.

 

[Walkntune]

If by "debate" you mean creationists never really define what they mean by "information", or when pinned down and shown how ridiculous their definition is simply shift the goalposts. Mutations add info' to the genome, subtract info', or remain neutral (which is the most common result). We have several instances of empirical evidence on information increasing. In the example I've linked here there were two different intergenomic translocations cited in unisexual populations, with one presenting brand new chromosomes generated by an intergenomic reciprocal translocation. If that's not new genomic information then there is no definition that will ever appease a creationists ignorance.

Gibberish- a term used in science forums which means instead of surface and logical you are deep and intuitive.

What is the force or cause of mutations?

 

[Nepenthe]

Gibberish- a term used in science forums which means instead of surface and logical you are deep and intuitive.

RF is hardly a science forum. In this situation I didn't mean gibberish as "instead of surface and logical you are deep and intuitive" but more along the lines of words strung together that offer little actual information.

What is the force or cause of mutations?

There are several causes: meiosis and recombination and mutagenic environmental influences all contribute to mutations. There's a wide variety of things that instigate mutations:
8.1 Mutations: Types and Causes -- Molecular Cell Biology -- NCBI Bookshelf

 

[Walkntune]

RF is hardly a science forum. In this situation I didn't mean gibberish as "instead of surface and logical you are deep and intuitive" but more along the lines of words strung together that offer little actual information.

There are several causes: meiosis and recombination and mutagenic environmental influences all contribute to mutations. There's a wide variety of things that instigate mutations:
8.1 Mutations: Types and Causes -- Molecular Cell Biology -- NCBI Bookshelf

I wasn't meaning RF but science forums pass that word around as much as pink elephants and unicorn farts.
Energy is all that exists. For every cause there is an underlining force of energy whether from radiation or whatnot. The answers lie deeper then the effects seen on the surface.
Energy is always changing in and out of form from potential and kinetic states.
I believe string theory is on the right path.Your observing the effects of energy on creation but the energy is the true source that is responsible for cosmic order.
The answers will be found at the sub -atomic level.

 

[Danmac]

Does gain of function mean the same thing as gain of information. Can a mutation cause you to lose information and yet gain a function?

 

[johnhanks]

I ponder on the idea and I believe it is still iffy. I am not sure how mutations can bring about more information to an organism?

I'm losing count of the number of times I and others have answered this one. It's well summarised here.

I think if evolution is true, the science behind it now is way off course. I believe it would have more to do with energy changing form and trying to take a path of least resistance then anything biological.I believe physics would actually play more of a role and biology is just a symptom of the effects of energy.

Sorry, but you're one who's way off course.

If evolution is true I believe it would be caused by mind more than accidental mutations.A bird needing a longer beak or a giraffe needing a longer neck? Overtime the necessity in the mind causes transformation.

The standard ToE explanation is far more parsimonious.

 

[Walkntune]

I'm losing count of the number of times I and others have answered this one. It's well summarised here.
Sorry, but you're one who's way off course.
The standard ToE explanation is far more parsimonious.

I'm sorry but to break it down in it's most simplistic form, nothing can take place without having energy transform at the sub-atomic level.All sciences will eventually fall under one universal theory and all else will just be symptoms.Its the human intellect that complicates all that falls under the beauty of simplicity!

 

[Walkntune]

The energy force that causes sperm to race up the fallopian tube is the same force that causes people to be competitive and strive to be the best and the same force which causes all mutations in living organisms to adapt and survive. The mutations are symptoms of this force, not the cause.
Science is always looking at the effects of this force of nature and not the actual cause.
As Einstein said "I want to know the mind of God ; everything else is just details."

 

[johnhanks]

I'm sorry but to break it down in it's most simplistic form, nothing can take place without having energy transform at the sub-atomic level.All sciences will eventually fall under one universal theory and all else will just be symptoms.

This may or may not be the case, but either way how does it make the biological ToE 'off course', exactly? This is like saying an economic theory must be 'off course' if it does not account for the movement of every individual penny in the GDP.

I note that having written

Originally Posted by Walkntune
I ponder on the idea and I believe it is still iffy. I am not sure how mutations can bring about more information to an organism?

you do not respond to the link explaining how they can.

 

[Walkntune]

This may or may not be the case, but either way how does it make the biological ToE 'off course', exactly? This is like saying an economic theory must be 'off course' if it does not account for the movement of every individual penny in the GDP.


.

Its like pruning branches instead of digging at the root.

I note that having written
you do not respond to the link explaining how they can.

Mutations cannot happen unless a force is applied. Information cannot be added unless there is a source from which the information comes from.

 

[Gunfingers]

Its like pruning branches instead of digging at the root.


Mutations cannot happen unless a force is applied. Information cannot be added unless there is a source from which the information comes from.

Are you going for something like this? Because while it's true that evolution must follow the laws of physics it would be kind of silly to expect all science ever to be done by physicists and mathematicians. Yes, mutations involve chemical reactions which involve the exchange of electrons between atoms and blah blah blah. It doesn't matter. The emergent results of those reactions are significant enough and varied enough to create a unique field of study that abstracts out the physics.