The Thief on the Cross

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I believe that we need to do more than believe Jesus Christ existed and is real in order to be saved, for even the devils "believe" in Christ and tremble before him. Faith is more than just merely believing, it is the thing that motivates us to act on the teachings of Christ and follow him because we trust him. I believe God can see the hearts of men and see the Faith that dwells within us. I believe as for the thief on the cross, on the cross he exercised a hope in Christ which hope made room for Faith and if that thief had been granted the opportunity to continue to live I believe he would have become a faithful follower of Christ. Now as for many the assumption has been made that the theif on the cross who was permitted into paradise was never baptized, opening room to believe we have no need for baptism. All I have to say for that is that idea is pure assumption and has no scriptural support at all. For all we know perhaps he was baptized and in doing so confessed his sins before the world and was afterwords judged according to his crimes and condemned to death on the cross. If this were the case wow, what an admirable example for truly he forsook his sins, took up his cross and followed Christ. Surely that is worthy of admittance into paradise.

 

[Thief]

I believe that we need to do more than believe Jesus Christ existed and is real in order to be saved, for even the devils "believe" in Christ and tremble before him. Faith is more than just merely believing, it is the thing that motivates us to act on the teachings of Christ and follow him because we trust him. I believe God can see the hearts of men and see the Faith that dwells within us. I believe as for the thief on the cross, on the cross he exercised a hope in Christ which hope made room for Faith and if that thief had been granted the opportunity to continue to live I believe he would have become a faithful follower of Christ. Now as for many the assumption has been made that the theif on the cross who was permitted into paradise was never baptized, opening room to believe we have no need for baptism. All I have to say for that is that idea is pure assumption and has no scriptural support at all. For all we know perhaps he was baptized and in doing so confessed his sins before the world and was afterwords judged according to his crimes and condemned to death on the cross. If this were the case wow, what an admirable example for truly he forsook his sins, took up his cross and followed Christ. Surely that is worthy of admittance into paradise.

Well said.

But when the disciples of the Carpenter came asking position in the kingdom....
The Carpenter mentioned a baptism of a different sort.
Not ceremonial.....not of water.

And when that conversation ended...it ended with the admission.....such things (position in the kingdom)....'are not Mine to give'.

If the Carpenter could not...and did not guarantee His own disciples position in the kingdom....
including those positions most readily controlled....to the left and to the right....immediately so...

Then what promise did He make to the Thief?....none.
What the Carpenter told the Thief was only an observation.

And what position do you think you are promised?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Well said.

But when the disciples of the Carpenter came asking position in the kingdom....
The Carpenter mentioned a baptism of a different sort.
Not ceremonial.....not of water.

And when that conversation ended...it ended with the admission.....such things (position in the kingdom)....'are not Mine to give'.

If the Carpenter could not...and did not guarantee His own disciples position in the kingdom....
including those positions most readily controlled....to the left and to the right....immediately so...

Then what promise did He make to the Thief?....none.
What the Carpenter told the Thief was only an observation.

And what position do you think you are promised?

I believe Christ was one with the Father, not saying they were the same person by any means, but rather that he was in sync with the Father. That being so I don't believe Christ was wrong when he told the thief on the cross that he would go to paradise.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Unless of course Christ was entirely wrong about everything, but that is an entirely different topic. For this post I would prefer its participants to play what if and assume confidence in the New Testament if they do not currently have confidence in the New Testament.

 

[Thief]

Unless of course Christ was entirely wrong about everything, but that is an entirely different topic. For this post I would prefer its participants to play what if and assume confidence in the New Testament if they do not currently have confidence in the New Testament.

I have confidence....but a different perspective.

I see no indication the Thief had performed any saving grace in his life.
That's how he ended up on the cross.
And yes he confessed his gulit.

With his last breath immediately pending he turned to the Carpenter and did ask....
'remembrance'.
He had no expectation of continuance.

The Carpenter replied only in observation....
'You will walk with Me in paradise.'

This was not a promise....or a reward.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I see no indication the Thief had performed any saving grace in his life.

That seems to be our little dilemma here as I mentioned before. There is no indication that that the theif did participate in a saving ordinance, (other than Christ's previous words to his disciples emphasizing the essential importance of such ordinances), but there is no evidence indicating that he did not participate in any saving ordinances. except for the statement "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
As you say he said this having expectation of continuance, so my question for you is why would the thief want Christ to remember him, a vile sinner? Would not such a person want the opposite,to be forgotten and hidden away to hide their iniquities feeling completely naked before God and knowing that they were considered an offence to God?
It sounds to me more like a plea saying I have invested a lot of hope and trust in you, don't forget about me and leave me dry the moment you enter the gates of heaven.

 

[Thief]

That seems to be our little dilemma here as I mentioned before. There is no indication that that the theif did participate in a saving ordinance, (other than Christ's previous words to his disciples emphasizing the essential importance of such ordinances), but there is no evidence indicating that he did not participate in any saving ordinances. except for the statement "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
As you say he said this having expectation of continuance, so my question for you is why would the thief want Christ to remember him, a vile sinner? Would not such a person want the opposite,to be forgotten and hidden away to hide their iniquities feeling completely naked before God and knowing that they were considered an offence to God?
It sounds to me more like a plea saying I have invested a lot of hope and trust in you, don't forget about me and leave me dry the moment you enter the gates of heaven.

The plea of remembrance came after the Thief spoke against the nay saying of another thief.
(note that gospels differ...in only one does this dialog take place)

In the asking the Carpenter could hear the realization in the voice of the man....
and that realization would be....not worthy to continue.

The Carpenter could 'see' the perspective to be correct.
The Carpenter could see the true humility.

No one enters worthy.
We all leave this world naked.

So I believe.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

The plea of remembrance came after the Thief spoke against the nay saying of another thief.
(note that gospels differ...in only one does this dialog take place)

Umm... I cam trying to catch your point, but I don't see it...

 

[Thief]

Umm... I cam trying to catch your point, but I don't see it...

It's not in the words of the Carpenter....that we enter heaven.

It is in your mind and heart.

Such I believe.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

No one enters worthy.
We all leave this world naked.

I agree with you as to the naked part. The difference between the righteous and the Unrighteous here would be the righteous were not ashamed, while the unrighteous had something to be ashamed about, a reason to hide.

No one enters heaven worthily? When do you believe the atonement of Christ uses its cleansing power, before or after admittance?

 

[Thief]

I agree with you as to the naked part. The difference between the righteous and the Unrighteous here would be the righteous were not ashamed, while the unrighteous had something to be ashamed about, a reason to hide.

No one enters heaven worthily? When do you believe the atonement of Christ uses its cleansing power, before or after admittance?

I have a scenario about that very item.
For now....I cannot post it.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

It's not in the words of the Carpenter....that we enter heaven.

It is in your mind and heart.

Such I believe.

Are you trying to say that paradise is a figurative place, as in any place of peace and happiness and not referring to a literal place?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

You don't believe there is any connection between these two verses
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

and you don't believe Christ was calling his kingdom paradise?

 

[Thief]

You don't believe there is any connection between these two verses
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

and you don't believe Christ was calling his kingdom paradise?

I don't believe the Carpenter's reply to be absolution or permission.

And by His own admission to His own disciples.....such things are not His to give.

So?....what kind of king cannot say to his followers....
'Sit here at my right and serve me....sit here at my left and serve.'

What kind of king cannot make certain position in his kingdom?...
including the two positions most controllable.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

getting more and more mixed into specific definitions I find this topic heading towards my 3 Biggest Biblical Statements.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...394-can-bible-interpret-itself-bible-all.html

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I don't believe the Carpenter's reply to be absolution or permission.

And by His own admission to His own disciples.....such things are not His to give.

So?....what kind of king cannot say to his followers....
'Sit here at my right and serve me....sit here at my left and serve.'

What kind of king cannot make certain position in his kingdom?...
including the two positions most controllable.

Christ continually showed his subjection to his father, it was he who had the say. Christ truly is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, but I find it quite evident that Christ's King is his Father and it is he who has a say in such things.

 

[Thief]

Christ continually showed his subjection to his father, it was he who had the say. Christ truly is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, but I find it quite evident that Christ's King is his Father and it is he who has a say in such things.

Of Himself...He did say.....brother and fellow servant.

Whenever the discussion of a crown came up.....He would leave.

 

[JayJayDee]

Looking at two of the gospels we see that Matthew reports that both the evildoers began reproaching Jesus along with the priests and the passersby, (Mat 27:44) whereas Luke tells us that one of them began to speak abusively and was rebuked by the other. When this one asked Jesus to remember him when he got into his kingdom, that is when the promise was made to him.

Now remembering that there is no punctuation used in Greek, we have the placement of a comma in this verse that can change the meaning of the scripture.
Jesus said, "Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise."

Putting the comma after the first "you" in that verse is what many translations do. This gives the impression that Jesus was somehow with the evildoer somewhere that day. The scriptures tell us that this is impossible. Jesus was dead in his tomb for three days after his death. (Matt 12:40) He did not ascend to heaven for 40 days.

Now, putting the comma after the word "today" makes more sense and agrees with the rest of scripture. Jesus made the promise that day.

So what was Jesus really promising the thief when he spoke about paradise? Was it heaven?

Since the evildoer was a criminal who was paying for his crimes and he expressed faith in Christ's kingdom as he was dying, he was not promised a position in heaven. The ones taken into the new covenant with Jesus were the ones who had been trained and taught by him. They had spiritual qualifications and as was already mentioned, the sons of Zebedee, who were apostles, had requested positions in the kingdom, but Jesus said they were not his to give.

What Jesus was offering the evildoer was what all Jews expected.....a resurrection back to life on earth under Messiah's kingdom rulership.

The first paradise was earthly and it was to be extended earthwide by obedient humans who would fill the earth with their kind and "subdue" it, making the whole world resemble the garden of Eden. All they had to do to keep it was not break God's command concerning the forbidden fruit.

Rev 21:3, 4 describes the outcome of the rulership of God's kingdom. It is describing the future for mankind, undoing all the harm done by the events in Eden. There will be no pain, suffering or death anymore. Paradise will be restored.

This restoration of man's earthly paradise under the rule of Christ and his "joint-heirs" will see the evildoer resurrected as part of God's "new earth" in which righteousness is to dwell" (2 Pet 3:13)

 

[Reverend Rick]

It's hard to say the father and the son where of one mind when Jesus said, "Forgive them father, they know not what they do". I read this as Jesus was worried what his father might do.

 

[Thief]

Looking at two of the gospels we see that Matthew reports that both the evildoers began reproaching Jesus along with the priests and the passersby, (Mat 27:44) whereas Luke tells us that one of them began to speak abusively and was rebuked by the other. When this one asked Jesus to remember him when he got into his kingdom, that is when the promise was made to him.

Now remembering that there is no punctuation used in Greek, we have the placement of a comma in this verse that can change the meaning of the scripture.
Jesus said, "Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise."

Putting the comma after the first "you" in that verse is what many translations do. This gives the impression that Jesus was somehow with the evildoer somewhere that day. The scriptures tell us that this is impossible. Jesus was dead in his tomb for three days after his death. (Matt 12:40) He did not ascend to heaven for 40 days.

Now, putting the comma after the word "today" makes more sense and agrees with the rest of scripture. Jesus made the promise that day.

So what was Jesus really promising the thief when he spoke about paradise? Was it heaven?

Since the evildoer was a criminal who was paying for his crimes and he expressed faith in Christ's kingdom as he was dying, he was not promised a position in heaven. The ones taken into the new covenant with Jesus were the ones who had been trained and taught by him. They had spiritual qualifications and as was already mentioned, the sons of Zebedee, who were apostles, had requested positions in the kingdom, but Jesus said they were not his to give.

What Jesus was offering the evildoer was what all Jews expected.....a resurrection back to life on earth under Messiah's kingdom rulership.

The first paradise was earthly and it was to be extended earthwide by obedient humans who would fill the earth with their kind and "subdue" it, making the whole world resemble the garden of Eden. All they had to do to keep it was not break God's command concerning the forbidden fruit.

Rev 21:3, 4 describes the outcome of the rulership of God's kingdom. It is describing the future for mankind, undoing all the harm done by the events in Eden. There will be no pain, suffering or death anymore. Paradise will be restored.

This restoration of man's earthly paradise under the rule of Christ and his "joint-heirs" will see the evildoer resurrected as part of God's "new earth" in which righteousness is to dwell" (2 Pet 3:13)

Portions of this are dogmatic.

I don't believe the Carpenter was given to such things.

He told His followers the kingdom is not of this world.
When speaking to the Thief, that perspective should be held.

Punctuation can indeed alter the perspective.
But the teachings of the Carpenter or strongest in scenario form.

And the quote above (comma or not) doesn't position heaven on earth.
Nor is the quote a promise.

The Thief is the first of all, to follow the Carpenter, into the next life.
The kingdom not of this world.

That's how I read it.