The Tree of Knowledge

[michel]

From:- "http://www.gracecathedral.org/enrichment/brush_excerpts/brush_20030409.shtml
The Tree of Knowledge

And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil....
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
-- Genesis 2: 9, 16-17 (KJV)

Is the knowledge referred to perhaps science, as we know it to be now? why, or why not?
​

 

[Dunemeister]

Just as "as far as the East is from the West" means "an infinite distance", and "the beginning and the end" can refer to infinite time, so "good and evil" means "all things." At least, according to a couple of writers I've read. If that's right, it means that God had prohibited us from pursuing omniscience, and certainly from bypassing God in doing so.

However, I find the traditional line more satisfactory. "Good and evil" are just that, good and evil. That explains Adam and Eve's shock and shame at discovering their nakedness after eating the fruit of the tree. They didn't just discover anatomy. They discovered the moral implications of nakedness, so went out and made coverings for themselves and played the blame game when God confronted them.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's a merism. See Deuteronomy 1:39.

 

[Falvlun]

Just as "as far as the East is from the West" means "an infinite distance", and "the beginning and the end" can refer to infinite time, so "good and evil" means "all things." At least, according to a couple of writers I've read. If that's right, it means that God had prohibited us from pursuing omniscience, and certainly from bypassing God in doing so.

Ah. Thanks for explaining this position: I had never understood why people tended to read just "Tree of Knowledge" and not tack on the "of good and evil".

I too find the traditional line more satisfactory. It seemed that knowledge of good and evil became innate, and some parts of it, were instantaneous (like modesty). If it were simply the Tree of All Knowledge, why didn't they instantly learn why the sky was blue too?

And why even tack on the "of good and evil" part when simply "all knowledge" was meant? The Tree of Life wasn't so poetically named...

It's a merism.

merism: synecdoche in which totality is expressed by contrasting parts" (e.g. high and low, young and old), 1894, from Mod.L. merismus, from Gk. merismos "dividing, partition," from merizein "to divide," from meros "part."

Does this mean you are supporting the first interpretation given by Dunemeister?

I could see how a merism could include everything-- the totality-- between the two contrasting parts, but not necessarily the totality of everything in existence. For example, where would "blue" fit into the merism "young and old"? Since "blue" does not have an "age" descriptor, it falls outside the totality encompassed by the two contrasting parts. Likewise, how would the statement "the sky is blue" fall between the merism "good and evil" since the statement has no innate moral-ness associated with it?

See Deuteronomy 1:39.

Deut 1:39 39 And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it.

I am not seeing how this supports your statement that it is a merism, but it does show that the "knowledge of good and evil" may not be innate. It could also point to the idea that the children have not yet reached the "age of accountability" in which they are expected to know the difference between good and evil.

 

[ChristineES]

I don't think the Tree of Knowledge was anything more than a loss of innocence. The tree of knowledge was a symbol of that loss (I am just guessing here).

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't think the Tree of Knowledge was anything more than a loss of innocence. The tree of knowledge was a symbol of that loss (I am just guessing here).

Good guess. :yes:

 

[Twilight Hue]

From:- "http://www.gracecathedral.org/enrichment/brush_excerpts/brush_20030409.shtml
The Tree of Knowledge

And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil....
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
-- Genesis 2: 9, 16-17 (KJV)

Is the knowledge referred to perhaps science, as we know it to be now? why, or why not?
​

I mused at the thought of Adam asking, "God? What does die mean?"
God muttered, "Uh, Um.....oh $%@*!

 

[michel]

I don't think the Tree of Knowledge was anything more than a loss of innocence. The tree of knowledge was a symbol of that loss (I am just guessing here).

Ah, so obvious, yet we went roundabout for the right answer.:bow:

I mused at the thought of Adam asking, "God? What does die mean?"
God muttered, "Uh, Um.....oh $%@*!

I think he might have used a "cleaner" word - excrement?:cover:

 

[zenzero]

Friend ChristineES,

I don't think the Tree of Knowledge was anything more than a loss of innocence. The tree of knowledge was a symbol of that loss (I am just guessing here).

You are right.
Loss of INNOCENCE!
What does loss of innocene mean?
When does one loses his/her innocence?
The moment an individual sotarts thinking, we say, He/She has matured or lost his/her innocence.
The root aspect here is THINKING.
Till the mind remains still we are child like we are in the kingdom of god and so Jesus's message was reminding everyone to be CHILD like and that being child like is to have a still mind like a child but by nature the MIND thinks and so every child matures and that takes the individual away from god.
Love & rgds

 

[michel]

Friend ChristineES,



You are right.
Loss of INNOCENCE!
What does loss of innocene mean?
When does one loses his/her innocence?
The moment an individual sotarts thinking, we say, He/She has matured or lost his/her innocence.
The root aspect here is THINKING.
Till the mind remains still we are child like we are in the kingdom of god and so Jesus's message was reminding everyone to be CHILD like and that being child like is to have a still mind like a child but by nature the MIND thinks and so every child matures and that takes the individual away from god.
Love & rgds

Good, I can stop thinking now; then I shall be free from sin?

 

[gnostic]

Do you think they (Adam and Eve) remain innocent, even if they didn't eat the fruit?

Would they lose their innocence in other way?

 

[zenzero]

Friend gnostic,

Humans evolved and the difference between All of existence and humans is this developed mind which THINKS and that is the nature of this developed mind which will do its work inspite of the individual's wanting or not besides wanting too will happen only when the mind is activated or thinks if it should want to take a decision too.
So, it was inevitable that this innocence is lost but the other part is that innocence can be regained, can be lost and found through that same mind that allowed it to get lost.
Love & rgds

 

[gnostic]

Humans evolved and the difference between All of existence and humans is this developed mind which THINKS and that is the nature of this developed mind which will do its work inspite of the individual's wanting or not besides wanting too will happen only when the mind is activated or thinks if it should want to take a decision too.
So, it was inevitable that this innocence is lost but the other part is that innocence can be regained, can be lost and found through that same mind that allowed it to get lost.

So they would lose their innocence regardless if they ate the fruit or not?

 

[gnostic]

If you're innocent, not knowing right from wrong, then how can they make decision?

I don't think Adam and Eve actually understood they would die, if they ate the fruit, because they have never seen anything in the Garden die before, hence they don't understand the consequence of death.

When the serpent before Eve, she was given information, and since she don't know right from wrong, because she didn't eat the fruit yet, so she ate them, because she was given conflicting information; one from god and one from the serpent.

 

[zenzero]

Friend gnostic,

Stories of the bible are just symbolic.
They are to be understood with our own nature.
This developed MIND of humans by nature THINKS.
A child is born innocent including you and me.
But could we have stopped our minds from not thinking?
No. It does its job on its own accord without asking our permission.
The sun gives light and heat and the earth revolves etc etc.
All this happens on its own accord without asking for any one's permission or anyone's wishing.
Likewise the mind 's job is to think.
This thinking itself leads to taking decisions and any decision is bound to be right or wrong depending on the individual's perspective.
The journey happens on its own and so getting back to that state of innocence is only just by still the mind and stilling the thoughts that hapens in the mind and then one is back in PARADISE. Paradise is HERE-NOW. but still we never find it.
Love & rgds

 

[Falvlun]

Friend ChristineES,



You are right.
Loss of INNOCENCE!
What does loss of innocene mean?
When does one loses his/her innocence?
The moment an individual sotarts thinking, we say, He/She has matured or lost his/her innocence.
The root aspect here is THINKING.
Till the mind remains still we are child like we are in the kingdom of god and so Jesus's message was reminding everyone to be CHILD like and that being child like is to have a still mind like a child but by nature the MIND thinks and so every child matures and that takes the individual away from god.
Love & rgds

Ah. Here is the leap that I don't think is substantiated. Why does loss of innocence automatically equal thinking?

 

[Cordoba]

In The Qur'an, one tree in heaven was prohibited for Adam and Eve, but it was not described as the "tree of knowledge"

Knowledge is not prohibited

Quite the opposite

The first thing after God created Adam was to teach him knowledge, which even the angels did not know

What Adam did accept however is to have free will

 

[zenzero]

Friend falvlun,

Ah. Here is the leap that I don't think is substantiated. Why does loss of innocence automatically equal thinking?

Kindly read post No.9.
Love & rgds

 

[Falvlun]

You are right.
Loss of INNOCENCE!
What does loss of innocene mean?
When does one loses his/her innocence?
The moment an individual sotarts thinking, we say, He/She has matured or lost his/her innocence.

You say this. I am asking you why you say this. I don't think I have ever heard anyone argue that "starting to think equals loss of innocence". I have heard it argued how starting to understand the difference between good and evil equals loss of innocence, but understanding and thinking are two different things, and "good and evil" doesn't encompass everything one may think about.

The root aspect here is THINKING.
Till the mind remains still we are child like we are in the kingdom of god and so Jesus's message was reminding everyone to be CHILD like and that being child like is to have a still mind like a child but by nature the MIND thinks and so every child matures and that takes the individual away from god.
Love & rgds

I would like you to point out one child who has a "still mind". The mind is in overdrive as a child. As soon as they can start talking, it is always "Why? Why? Why?" You can even see infants being curious about their surroundings, the way their eyes dart to and fro, drinking in everything.

A defining characteristic of humanity is "thinking". If what you are saying is correct, then we are born away from God, and we never had innocence to lose.

 

[Falvlun]

In The Qur'an, one tree in heaven was prohibited for Adam and Eve, but it was not described as the "tree of knowledge"

Technically, in the Bible it is described as the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". I really don't understand why the rest of the descriptor is continually chopped off.

What is the prohibited tree called in the Qur'an?