The trial as per the gospels vs. Jewish law

[Jayhawker Soule]

Maybe that's why the bible says stupid things like "and they stoned them with stones."

Or, just maybe, what is truly ignorant (and childish) is mocking a translation when one knows nothing of the language.

So, for what it's worth, Robert Alter offers: "And all Israel pelted them with stones ...", as does the JPS.

 

[Estro Felino]

This is the reason that the Hellenistic Jews and Gentiles of Asia Minor and Rome became the more influential believers that lead to a Roman Christianity.

By the way, I guess the topic of this thread is more about Jesus' trial.
My point was that since we are dealing with crucifixion here, it was a most likely political trial. Not a religious trial.
Whether certain influential Jews had ties with the Romans...well...probable.

 

[shunyadragon]

I think it is good to notice that Bible says:

Then Pilate said to them, You take him and judge him according to your own Law. Then the Jews said to him, It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,
Joh. 18:31

According to that, Jews didn't have the right to judge Jesus. The judgment came from Roman ruler. However, there could have been many Jews that wanted Jesus killed anyway, for example because Jesus was threat to their position. That doesn't mean all Jews are guilty for that, or that it was because Jewish system.

This is an odd conflicting inserted effort to defer guilt from Rome onto the Jews, which does not fit the reality. Romans would never defer to Jews for 'trial and punishment' of violations of Roman Law. If Jewish law applies JEsus would have been stoned to death.

The facts are specific Jesus Christ was conflicted and crucified under Roman Law. Acts of Rebellion against Rome would not be deferred to Jewish authorities.

 

[lukethethird]

Pontius Pilate found Jesus to be innocent and so washed his hands of the whole affair, someone should have told him that Jesus was guilty of something.

 

[shunyadragon]

By the way, I guess the topic of this thread is more about Jesus' trial.
My point was that since we are dealing with crucifixion here, it was a most likely political trial. Not a religious trial.
Whether certain influential Jews had ties with the Romans...well...probable.

Yes, certain influential Jews likely did have ties with the Romans for many reasons, but concerning Roman Law concerning rebellion against Rome Roman Law prevails against any Jewish influence particularly since rebellion of Jews based on messianic expectations made Rome unforgiving and strict according to Roman Law.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

During the trial (In Mark's version), it says "7Now a man called Barabbas was in prison with the rebels who had committed murder during the insurrection."

Insurrection was not a Jewish crime, it was Roman. The Romans rarely kept people in prison for any substantial periods of time, at least for capital offenses, such as murder and open rebellion against Roman authorities. Jesus was apparently arrested within days of an insurrection against Roman rule--not otherwise described in the Bible--and was being treated as an insurrectionist.

EDIT: of course, there were a couple of incidents that might have been interpreted as insurrection by the Romans during that week...Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem for one, and Jesus' disruption of the exchange and sacrifices in the Temple...

 

[Estro Felino]

During the trial (In Mark's version), it says "7Now a man called Barabbas was in prison with the rebels who had committed murder during the insurrection."

Insurrection was not a Jewish crime, it was Roman. The Romans rarely kept people in prison for any substantial periods of time, at least for capital offenses, such as murder and open rebellion against Roman authorities. Jesus was apparently arrested within days of an insurrection against Roman rule--not otherwise described in the Bible--and was being treated as an insurrectionist.

EDIT: of course, there were a couple of incidents that might have been interpreted as insurrection by the Romans during that week...Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem for one, and Jesus' disruption of the exchange and sacrifices in the Temple...

It's undeniable that Zealots were indirectly fomented by Jesus' message about justice and freedom: that peoples must not be oppressed.
A charismatic leader was evidently considered more dangerous than some Zealot who had killed someone during an insurrection.

 

[Eli G]

I have heard many things said about the process by which Jesus was tried etc and I have had problems with it.
(...) Any insight would be appreciated.

The Gospels show that the Jews brought Jesus to an illegal Jewish trial, and only later was Jesus handed over to Pilate.

Modern Jewish students of their history are well aware that first century Jews condemned Jesus in front of Pilate and he ultimately had his soldiers kill him without any legal cause to do so, but only because he felt threatened by the Jews.

If it seems to you that the gospel accounts do not describe correctly the trial of Jesus...then how do you think modern Jews know that first century Jews condemned Jesus in a Jewish court?

I have never heard any modern Jew say that first century Jews were not involved in the death of Jesus. Are you saying that was the case?

 

[rosends]

If it seems to you that the gospel accounts do not describe correctly the trial of Jesus...then how do you think modern Jews know that first century Jews condemned Jesus in a Jewish court?

All I know is that the gospel texts claim he was condemned in some form of Jewish court. A situation can be established and then can fail in its details.

I have never heard any modern Jew say that first century Jews were not involved in the death of Jesus. Are you saying that was the case?

I'm saying that for the gospel accounts to be accurate then the Jews had to be disregarding a whole slew of rules and rejecting what Jewish is and how it operates.

When confronted with a retelling of events that is so full of problems there are, I guess, two reactions. One is to say that the retelling is accurate and all the people (ALL) were doing things wrong

or

The other is to say that the text, rife with error, is wrong in its retelling.

 

[Eli G]

The Jews in Jesus' times broke many laws about the trials. An article I studied about this says:

Jesus’ captors now led him to the home of High Priest Caiaphas, where the illegal nighttime trial continued. (Luke 22:54; John 18:24) There, in defiance of all principles of justice, the priests sought “false witness against Jesus in order to put him to death,” yet no two testimonies agreed as to what Jesus had said. (Matthew 26:59; Mark 14:56-59) So the high priest tried to get Jesus to incriminate himself. “Do you say nothing in reply?” he asked. “What is it these are testifying against you?” (Mark 14:60) This tactic was completely out of line. “Putting the question to the accused, and founding a condemnation on his answer, was [a] violation of formal justice,” observes Innes, quoted earlier.

That assembly finally seized upon a statement Jesus made. In response to the question: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Jesus answered: “I am; and you persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.” The priests construed this as blasphemy, and “they all condemned him to be liable to death.”—Mark 14:61-64.b

According to the Mosaic Law, trials were to be held in public. (Deuteronomy 16:18; Ruth 4:1) This, on the other hand, was a secret trial. No one attempted to or was allowed to speak in Jesus’ favor. No examination was made of the merits of Jesus’ claim to Messiahship. Jesus had no opportunity to summon witnesses for his defense. There was no orderly voting among the judges as to guilt or innocence.

You can find more information in the original article here https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011248

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Jews in Jesus' times broke many laws about the trials. An article I studied about this says:


You can find more information in the original article here https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011248

That is not exactly a reliable source. One can go to sources for ideas, but one should not use them for evidence since most of their work is full of flaws.

In other words, just because it is from that source does not mean that it is false, but most people will probably think that the source alone refutes it. Find a reliable source if you want others to believe you.

 

[rosends]

The Jews in Jesus' times broke many laws about the trials. An article I studied about this says:


You can find more information in the original article here https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011248

Or the source material is simply wrong or agendized in order to make a group look bad. Same source material, different conclusions.

 

[Eli G]

You are not authorize to determine what is a reliable source. You are just a couple of cyber-characters ... and that's it.

Take it or leave it. Others will read it and recognize the truth.

I don't mind the opinion of you about what is reliable or not ... YOU are not reliable.

 

[rosends]

You are not authorize to determine what is a reliable source. You are just a couple of cyber-characters ... and that's it.

Take it or leave it. Others will read it and recognize the truth.

I don't mind the opinion of you about what is reliable or not ... YOU are not reliable.

are you any less just a cyber character? Is there any reason to see you as any more reliable?

 

[Eli G]

We, Jehovah's witnesses, are not just cyber-characters ... We are real.

Unlike you, we can be verified: go to a nearby Kingdom Hall and you will meet us, or visit our official website and you will know what we teach.

Who are you? Just some cyber-characters playing who knows what.

 

[rosends]

We, Jehovah's witnesses, are not just cyber-characters ... We are real.

Unlike you, we can be verified: go to a nearby Kingdom Hall and you will meet us, or visit our official website and you will know what we teach.

Who are you? Just some cyber-characters playing who knows what.

Well, I'm a Jew and I'm real.
I can be verified -- go to my synagogue and meet me. or my place of work. And I can recommend a variety of websites if you want to know what Judaism teaches.
So, who am I? I'm a guy sitting at a computer, typing while listening to Classic Alternative music. Claims to my not being real have been greatly exaggerated.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are not authorize to determine what is a reliable source. You are just a couple of cyber-characters ... and that's it.

Take it or leave it. Others will read it and recognize the truth.

I don't mind the opinion of you about what is reliable or not ... YOU are not reliable.

So you will believe any liars that support your beliefs. I suppose that comes in handy.

But the idea of a forum is to discuss and demonstrate why one is correct at times. Your source is that of a rather extreme sect. They predicted the end of the world multiple times. And . . . . wait a second let me check . . . Yep, it is still here. That is only one reason that they are not reliable.

 

[Eli G]

I can believe you are a modern Jew, but not all modern Jews teach the same things, so you are just you.
We. Jehovah's witnesses, teach the same things around the whole planet.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We, Jehovah's witnesses, are not just cyber-characters ... We are real.

Unlike you, we can be verified: go to a nearby Kingdom Hall and you will meet us, or visit our official website and you will know what we teach.

Who are you? Just some cyber-characters playing who knows what.

Hmm, that is exactly the sort of nonsense that a well programmed cyber-character would post. I am having my doubts about your reality too right now.

 

[Eli G]

I already shared with you some info about the trial of Jesus ... The article I shared is very comprehensive about this.
That was all I had to say here.
Have a good day.