The Trinity in Luke 2:40-56

[rrobs]

Of course it's not wrong. However, this also is not wrong:

John 14:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Jesus always did his father's will. As such he was the express image of his father, but that doesn't make him God. He is the son of God. There is no way a son can be his own father.

 

[74x12]

Jesus always did his father's will. As such he was the express image of his father, but that doesn't make him God. He is the son of God. There is no way a son can be his own father.

You are saying that there is no way God cannot do it? You may want to check these verses. (Jeremiah 32:27, Luke 1:37)

And yes, Jesus did always do His Father's will. However, that doesn't mean He could rightfully say "Have I been so long with you and yet you do not know me Phillip?"

That is not the right thing to do; assuming that Jesus is not God. Jesus should have given the glory to God in that case. (Isaiah 48:11)

So, since He said this "Have I been so long with you etc." therefore logically He is claiming to be God.

 

[Ellen Brown]

You are correct that it is not hard for those with God's spirit to understand him. Rather it is the ones without the spirit that don't.
Matthew 16:13-17
13 When he had come into the region of Caesarea Philippi, Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?” 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did.

The spirit of the father revealed that Jesus is the son of God.
That's not wrong, is it?

I'm going to try to be peaceful in allowing others to have another view. Muslims and Jews hold a similar view in that they do not believe that God has a form, and does not procreate, or he could not be a GOD. In Islam, to hold to the view that Jesus is the Son of God, is called Shirk, and some Muslims will cut your head off for that.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I'm just curious how the JW's Bible translates Hebrews 1:8, which in the KJV states, "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

According to the Internet, the reading for the JW is as follows: Heb 1:8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne+ forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

It wasn't Jesus in the beginning. It was the word that was in the beginning. Doesn't say a thing about Jesus in this verse. To change the word "word" to "Jesus" is changing the word of God, never a good thing. Just read what's written without reading preconceived ideas into it.

Verse 14 says the word became Jesus. The word "became" is from the Greek word "genos" which basically means a beginning. In other words, Jesus had a beginning. God didn't have a beginning.

Interesting that you can change words in Luke but I can't change words in John. By the way, when it says the "Word" was made flesh and dwelt among us, how do you interpret that? Didn't Jesus become flesh and dwell on earth? So isn't that saying that the "word" and Jesus are really the same? I am truly interested in an explanation of this. Thanks

 

[Deeje]

If Jesus is God, Luke 2:40-56 could (should?) be read as,

"Now the parents of God went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the Passover. And when God was twelve years old, they went up according to custom and when the feast was ended, as they were returning, God stayed behind in Jerusalem. The parents of God did not know it, but supposing God to be in their company they went a day's journey, and they sought God among their kinsfolk and acquaintances and when they did not find God, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking God. After three days they found God in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions and all who heard God were amazed at the understanding of God and His answers. And when they saw God they were astonished and the mother of God said to him, "God, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously." And God said to them, "How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in the house of my Father?" And they did not understand the saying which God spoke to them. And God went down with them and came to Nazareth and God was obedient to them and the mother of God kept all these things in her heart. And God increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man."
​

Yep...totally ridiculous.

God was 12 years old? God has parents? God has a mother?

God had to be in the house of his Father and yet his father was looking for him?

God increased in wisdom?

Thanks for showing us this...it does hit the nail on the head.

 

[blü 2]

If Jesus is God, Luke 2:40-56 could (should?) be read as,

Just so!

This is a variation on the 'Me, me, why have I forsaken me?' question.

It goes with the Trinity problem that

God is the father of Jesus

Jesus is 100% of God

(and the Father is 100% of God, and the Ghost is 100% of God)

therefore

Jesus is entirely his own father​

(and the Father is entirely Jesus' father, and the Ghost is entirely Jesus' father)​

so

in what sense is the Father more entitled to the title Father than Jesus, or separately, the Ghost, are,

and in what sense is Jesus entitled to the title Son?​

 

[rrobs]

Interesting that you can change words in Luke but I can't change words in John. By the way, when it says the "Word" was made flesh and dwelt among us, how do you interpret that? Didn't Jesus become flesh and dwell on earth? So isn't that saying that the "word" and Jesus are really the same? I am truly interested in an explanation of this. Thanks

The OP was sarcasm. I changed words to show how Jesus being God causes problems. The same thing happens when "Jesus" is substituted for "word" in John 1:1.

 

[rrobs]

Yep...totally ridiculous.

God was 12 years old? God has parents? God has a mother?

God had to be in the house of his Father and yet his father was looking for him?

God increased in wisdom?

Thanks for showing us this...it does hit the nail on the head.

Glad you got the sarcasm. A lot of folks thought I was serious. There are a whole bunch of places that can be gummed up the same way. The whole story falls apart by thinking Jesus is God.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Interesting that you can change words in Luke but I can't change words in John. By the way, when it says the "Word" was made flesh and dwelt among us, how do you interpret that? Didn't Jesus become flesh and dwell on earth? So isn't that saying that the "word" and Jesus are really the same? I am truly interested in an explanation of this. Thanks

It is interesting that when I was Mormon, they said that God is "flesh and bone". I told them that since he is God, he can be what ever he wants to be. I think they were glad to be done with me.

 

[Deeje]

According to the Internet, the reading for the JW is as follows: Heb 1:8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

"The official explanation is....."The preceding verses say that God is speaking, not that he is being addressed; and the following verse uses the expression “God, thy God,” showing that the one addressed is not the Most High God but is a worshiper of that God. Hebrews 1:8 quotes from Psalm 45:6, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Obviously, the Bible writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God. Rather, Psalm 45:6, in RS, reads “Your divine throne.” (NE says, “Your throne is like God’s throne.” JP [verse 7]: “Thy throne given of God.”) Solomon, who was possibly the king originally addressed in Psalm 45, was said to sit “upon Jehovah’s throne.” (1 Chronicles 29:23, NW) In harmony with the fact that God is the “throne,” or Source and Upholder of Christ’s kingship, Daniel 7:13, 14 and Luke 1:32 show that God confers such authority on him."

 

[Deeje]

Interesting that you can change words in Luke but I can't change words in John. By the way, when it says the "Word" was made flesh and dwelt among us, how do you interpret that? Didn't Jesus become flesh and dwell on earth? So isn't that saying that the "word" and Jesus are really the same? I am truly interested in an explanation of this. Thanks

John 1:1 says that the "word was "with God". How can you be "with" someone if you are that someone?

In the Greek, the word "god" is "theos" and this is a word that is not exclusive to Jehovah. It is used for other "gods" (the Greeks had lots of them)...even satan is called a god. The only way to identify the one God of the Jews in a polytheistic society was to use the definite article "the". There is no indefinite article in Greek ("a" or "an") So if you read John 1:1 in Greek it says...."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God and the word was god". There is no definite article with the second "theos" meaning that the Word was "divine" or "one with divine power and authority"......but is not THE God.

John 1:18 then goes on to says....."No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."

If no man has ever seen God.....thousands saw Jesus. He is described as an "only begotten god" which means that he had a begetter, or one who produced him. He is the son of his Father so he cannot possibly be the same age as his begetter.

The trinity is therefore a nonsensical idea that does not hold water either scripturally or logically.

 

[Ellen Brown]

John 1:1 says that the "word was "with God". How can you be "with" someone if you are that someone?

In the Greek, the word "god" is "theos" and this is a word that is not exclusive to Jehovah. It is used for other "gods" (the Greeks had lots of them)...even satan is called a god. The only way to identify the one God of the Jews in a polytheistic society was to use the definite articles "the". There is no indefinite article in Greek ("a" or "an") So if you read John 1:1 in Greek it says...."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God and the word was god". There is no definite article with the second "theos" meaning that the Word was "divine" or "one with divine power and authority"......but is not THE God.

John 1:18 then goes on to says....."No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."

If no man has ever seen God.....thousands saw Jesus. He is described as an "only begotten god" which means that he had a begetter, or one who produced him. He is the son of his Father so he cannot possibly be the same age as his begetter.

The trinity is therefore a nonsensical idea that does not hold water either scripturally or logically.

John 1:18 is incorrect, or incorrectly translated. Read the Book of Exodus.

 

[Deeje]

John 1:18 is incorrect, or incorrectly translated. Read the Book of Exodus.

You need to be more specific....What in Exodus fights with John 1:18?

 

[Ellen Brown]

You need to be more specific....What in Exodus fights with John 1:18?

OH, give me a friggen break! Go read Exodus, for crying out loud!!! There are numerous incidents in the Book where Moses stands and talks to God, AND there are all sorts of other happenings. I am not about to spoon feed you the Bible.

 

[Deeje]

OH, give me a friggen break! Go read Exodus, for crying out loud!!! There are numerous incidents in the Book where Moses stands and talks to God, AND there are all sorts of other happenings. I am not about to spoon feed you the Bible.

Tell me what I am supposed to see in Exodus? The incidents where God speaks to Moses are through an angel. God has never "stood and talked to anyone" for a very good reason.....

Moses once asked.....
“Please show me your glory.” 19 But he said: “I will make all my goodness pass before your face, and I will declare before you the name of Jehovah;+ and I will favor the one whom I favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I show mercy.” 20 But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

21 Jehovah said further: “Here is a place near me. Station yourself on the rock. 22 When my glory is passing by, I will place you in a crevice of the rock, and I will shield you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 After that I will take my hand away, and you will see my back. But my face may not be seen.” (Exodus 33:18-23)

Perhaps you missed that bit?

 

[Desert Snake]

Tell me what I am supposed to see in Exodus? The incidents where God speaks to Moses are through an angel. God has never "stood and talked to anyone" for a very good reason.....

Moses once asked.....
“Please show me your glory.” 19 But he said: “I will make all my goodness pass before your face, and I will declare before you the name of Jehovah;+ and I will favor the one whom I favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I show mercy.” 20 But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

21 Jehovah said further: “Here is a place near me. Station yourself on the rock. 22 When my glory is passing by, I will place you in a crevice of the rock, and I will shield you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 After that I will take my hand away, and you will see my back. But my face may not be seen.” (Exodus 33:18-23)

Perhaps you missed that bit?

Why does your main entity say that he will proclaim the name of the Lord before him? Isn't that supposed to be his name?

 

[Deeje]

Which Yahweh is this?

There is only one YHWH

Exodus 3:13-15....from the Tanakh....

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"


14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"


15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'יְהֹוָ֣ה (YHWH) God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation"

Psalm 83:18..."Let them know that You-Your name alone is יְהֹוָ֣ה, (YHWH) Most High over all the earth."

I don't know where you get your information from, but it is seldom accurate.

 

[Desert Snake]

Is that how anyone talks?

 

[Desert Snake]

Why does your main entity say that he will proclaim the name of the Lord before him? Isn't that supposed to be his name?

^

There is only one YHWH

Exodus 3:13-15....from the Tanakh....

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"


14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"


15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'יְהֹוָ֣ה (YHWH) God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation"

Psalm 83:18..."Let them know that You-Your name alone is יְהֹוָ֣ה, (YHWH) Most High over all the earth."

I don't know where you get your information from, but it is seldom accurate.