learner Daniel
Active Member
falling asleep it was a long day
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The trinity is false - I have proof
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
I've heard that expression hundreds of times, like a litany... "Jesus is fully God" ... and even so, I don't have any idea about what those persons are trying to say with it.
Does a "fully God" have a God over him?
John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”
Can a "fully God" say something like this:
John 14:28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.
learner Daniel
Active Member
There is only one God. Jesus has the nature of God.
Colossians 1:19
For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him,
Colossians 2:9
For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ,
learner Daniel
Active Member
Yes because he is both fully God and fully Man.
We know he was fully obedient to the Father.
John 8:28
So Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own. But just as the Father taught Me, I say these things.
Luke 22:39-42
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Prayer in the Garden
39 He went out and made His way as usual to the Mount of Olives, and the disciples followed Him. 40 When He reached the place, He told them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” 41 Then He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, knelt down, and began to pray, 42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup away from Me—nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done.”
Jesus said, “I seek not to please myself but him who sent me” (John 5:30)
John 6:38
Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but the will of Him who sent me".
Other verses that show Jesus' submission to the Father include:
John 4:34
John 8:26
John 10:18
John 12:49-50
John 14:30-31
John 15:10
Jesus is both Divine by nature and submits to his Father.
Philippians 2:5-8
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
John 8:28-29
Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."
John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Luke 2:49
And He said to them, “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?”
I don't know what you're trying to say:
If there is only one God, is it Jesus or Jesus' God? They can't both be.
learner Daniel
Active Member
We know that there is rank in the godhead Father, Son and Holy Spirit
I don't know what you mean with that.
If there is "rank", then they are not only one.
learner Daniel
Active Member
There are multiple threads on this that should be combined.
On one of them I posted verses that the fullness of the God the Father dwells in him.
Colossians 1:19
For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him,
Colossians 2:9
For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ,
If Jesus talked about his God here:
Rev. 3:12 The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
Do you believe in that same God, or in a different one?
Rev. 3:12 The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
Do you believe in that same God, or in a different one?
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
Hi Eli G,
It's really as simple as the Father (the only God) was dwelling in that body. The Father is greater than that fleshly body. God can't die. The body he was dwelling in could die.
These others that are saying there is a Trinity have to ignore so many things. For example, they claim the Holy Spirit is another person. But the scripture plainly teaches that God is a Spirit, and that there is only one God, and that there is only one Spirit of God, and that God is holy. And Matthew 1:20 lets us know Mary was with child of the Holy Spirit. That means the Holy Spirit is the Father.
That fleshly body was the Son. The Father (the only God) was dwelling in that body. Hence why the Messiah would say I and my Father are one. And if you have seen me you have seen the Father.
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I know very well what Trinitarians and those like them believe. I also know very well the interpretations they make of certain texts that they use to justify their ideas. But a few reminders of simple teachings of Jesus show that such supposed logic of the Trinitarians leads them to erroneous conclusions.
The idea is the following: no matter how complex an argument may seem, if there is a simple teaching directly from Jesus himself that refutes the conclusion of such a complex argument, then a lot of time and energy was wasted in the reasoning, because Jesus already said that the conclusion reached with it is false.
For example: how can it be said that Jesus is Almighty if he himself says that there are things that he cannot do (John 5:19)? Or, how can it be said that Jesus is omniscient if he himself said that there were things that he did not know (Mark 13:32)? Or, how can it be said that he is God if he himself says that there are things that he does not have the authority to do, because they are in the exclusive hands of his Father (Mat. 20:23)? And if he has someone whom he calls GOD, how can one contradict him by saying that he is GOD, instead of that God of whom he himself spoke (John 17:3)?
It is no use wasting time on reasoning that end up contradicting Jesus. One cannot deny Jesus and then say that one is a Christian.
learner Daniel
Active Member
same
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
Here's the thing. When he worked those miracles, it was the Father dwelling in that body that was working the miracles. The flesh couldn't work miracles. That body was just like our body - weak. But once the Father raised that body up, it was then a glorified spiritual body that couldn't die. Then he said I have all power in heaven and in earth. He ascended and took his seat on the throne of God to rule as God forever.
That part in the verse of Mark 13:32 you are speaking of is not in some of the manuscripts. "Nor the Son" was an addition.
YHWH said in the Old Testament that he was the God of all flesh. That included the flesh of the Messiah. The Spirit was the God of that flesh. While he was in a fleshly body, that body had to be subject to the Spirit.
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learner Daniel
Active Member
why did he eat fish?
The Father of Jesus "dwelling" in him DOES NOT mean that the Father was not a different person in heavens.
Mat. 7:11 Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him!
... 10:32 “Everyone, then, who acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father who is in the heavens. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens.
Mat. 24:36 says the same thing.
Jesus and his Father, God, were two different persons before Jesus was born as a human (John 1:2,14,18), two different persons when Jesus was a human (John 17:1; Mat. 26:53), and they are now two different persons, with different names:
Rev. 3:12 The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
So, in the temple of heaven one God is worshipped, the God of whom Jesus is high priest.
Heb. 5:5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.”
I'm not aware of anything in the NT that supports the view that God was present in Jesus, except in the technical sense that the ruler is "present" when his or her envoy is present.
There are five versions of Jesus in the NT (Paul's and the four gospels'). Each of the five denies he's God and none of the five ever claims to be God. If you'd like to read some of the relevant quotes, I set them out in this earlier thread >Jesus Failed Right?<.
I agree that there is no "trinity" in the NT.
However, from as early as the 2nd century there were various attempts within the politics of the early church to elevate Jesus to god status. The result was the adoption of the Trinity doctrine in the 4th century. It seems not to worry people that it makes no sense ─ I mentioned some of the reasons here >Why So Much Trinity Bashing?<.
Of the five NT versions of Jesus, only those of Matthew and Luke are 'conceived of the Holy Ghost'. Mark's is an ordinary Jewish male until his baptism by JtB, at which point the heavens open and the Jewish God adopts him as [his] son (as [he] had earlier adopted David as [his] son in Psalm 2:7, a view directly supported in Acts 13:33. However, the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John each have the Gnostic qualities of having pre-existed in heaven with God, and (regardless of what Genesis says) created the material universe; but how each came to have human form is only hinted at by the claim each is descended from David. (As you know, Mark's Jesus says you don't need to be descended from David, but the other four disagree.)
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TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
The Messiah didn't exist except in the mind and plans of God until YHWH took on flesh. He was made of a woman and made under (or during the time of) the law. Galatians 4:4
Am I sensing correctly that you don't even believe the Messiah was God?
Contrary to verses such as Hebrews 2:8 (to the Son he saith, thy throne O God...)
John 10:33 ( because thou being a man, makest thyself God )
John 20:28 (Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.)
and Acts 20:28 (feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.)
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
I agree that there is no "trinity" in the NT.
However, from as early as the 2nd century there were various attempts within the politics of the early church to elevate Jesus to god status. The result was the adoption of the Trinity doctrine in the 4th century. It seems not to worry people that it makes no sense ─ I mentioned some of the reasons here >Why So Much Trinity Bashing?<.
QUOTE="TrueBeliever37, post: 8798712, member: 56659"]
And Matthew 1:20 lets us know Mary was with child of the Holy Spirit. That means the Holy Spirit is the Father. [/QUOTE]
Of the five NT versions of Jesus, only those of Matthew and Luke are 'conceived of the Holy Ghost'. Mark's is an ordinary Jewish male until his baptism by JtB, at which point the heavens open and the Jewish God adopts him as [his] son (as [he] had earlier adopted David as [his] son in Psalm 2:7, a view directly supported in Acts 13:33. However, the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John each have the Gnostic qualities of having pre-existed in heaven with God, and (regardless of what Genesis says) created the material universe; but how each came to have human form is only hinted at by the claim each is descended from David. (As you know, Mark's Jesus says you don't need to be descended from David, but the other four disagree.)
[/QUOTE]
Hi blu 2,
I couldn't follow everything you were saying. But I will try to address what I can.
Colossians 2:9 lets us know the fullness of the Godhead (or diety) was in him bodily.
2 Corinthians 5:19 says God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself...
In John 14:10 the Messiah himself said the Father that dwelleth in me, he does the works.
He also said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. John 14:7-9
Just because Mark didn't cover everything mentioned in Matthew or Luke's accounts doesn't negate them.
I don't see Paul or John having taught that he pre-existed in heaven with God. You will have to explain better what you are talking about.
Paul taught that when the time was right, he was made of a woman, made under the law. Galatians 4:4
YHWH was going to come down and tread upon the high places of the earth (Jerusalem) according to Micah 1:3-5
Isaiah 40:3 prophesied about a voice that crieth in the wilderness Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. And in Isaiah 40:9 say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
Then we get to the New Testament and the voice turns out to be John the Baptist. Matthew 3:1-3 John was clearly preparing the way for the Messiah. How can this be? It's because the Messiah was YHWH here in a body. YHWH took on flesh to be able to shed blood for our sins. Acts 20:28 - feed the church of God, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.
And that's why every knee will bow and every tongue confess that he is YHWH. Philippians 2:11 ( I know it has Lord in our translations. But that is the very word in English they replaced God's name with over and over and over in the OT. Some places in the NT are direct quotes of OT passages that contain the name in the Hebrew. They should have left God's name in the scriptures.)
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
What about the rest of what I said? Why just ignore it?