The Trinity - What on Earth is it?

[Dimi95]

So start a thread then.

I just wanted to show you how 'Son of Man' may relate to 'Son' in the Trinity and the whole concept of 'Son of God'..
You said yourself that the Trinity bugged you and I found myself in the statement as you said 'puzzled'.

It was just a suggestion , nothing more.
I adressed only the main point in the OP.
You can ignore it however , it's all cool.

 

[Niatero]

I don’t know if sense can be made of it as such. In Revelations Jesus appears as issuing warnings from heaven, but also pre Jesus the man as a sacrificial lamb stepping up to ‘fill the gap’, and later as a vengeful warrior. He appears to be part of a kind of heavenly court, the son of the god who is the ruler of that court. References to him as the son of the most high, the son of man, and the divine logos by which the universe was created seem to juxtapose an eternal existence (in the heavenly court, a son of god but without a mother - although the Holy Spirit is grammatically feminine) with him being actually born on earth as a human. So god (the father) acts through him but he also has some autonomy. Although he is portrayed in some sense as perfectly united with the father god, he doesn’t know everything the father knows, but he does always seem to use his autonomy to perfectly enact the will of the father.

So I suppose it’s a kind of fantasy about perfection in behaviour and union between father and son, or something like that. I don’t think there can be any realistic expectation of it making sense. Christian explanations either accept that it’s just a big mystery or provide inadequate analogies.

I like this. Maybe not agreeing with all of it, but I like the way it all fits together and with the scriptures.

 

[Niatero]

I have another idea , how about to start with 'Son of Man'?

I've put a lot of thought into that over many years, and I'm still not sure, but currently I'm thinking that one of the meanings is a prophet who teaches by acting out a story, like Ezekiel. In fact, Jesus could be referring to Ezekiel specifically, as a clue to what he is doing. Not bringing the same message, but teaching in the same way.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

To broaden the discussion a bit, what puzzles me is the idea that God is three and one at the same time. I have never heard an explanation from a believer that makes sense to me.

To put it simply God is water, Jesus is steam and the Holy Spirit is ice. The are all different yet they are all still water but that exist in different forms.

Different forms are required for different purposes. God can’t intermingle with us Himself because His presence is so Holy that we couldn’t stand before Him.

Jesus came here and accomplished that but He had to die for us to be saved so God exists in the form of the Holy Spirit which is something that can still interact with us that we can handle.

 

[YoursTrue]

So start a thread then.

I would like to say something here about this, the Trinity. According to the theory, there are three persons yet one God. Each person is God and equal to the other persons. And I know there was quite a controversy about this perhaps until the time of Constantine. The fact remains that Jesus said he was given all authority and that tells me something. Because he was GIVEN all authority for a certain purpose by the Father. There's more but I'll stop there for now.
Matthew 28: And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Quite a difference from when he was on the earth as a man.)

 

[Niatero]

To put it simply God is water, Jesus is steam and the Holy Spirit is ice. The are all different yet they are all still water but that exist in different forms.

As I understand it, Trinitarian theologians would call that a heretical view of the Trinity.

 

[Spice]

To broaden the discussion a bit, what puzzles me is the idea that God is three and one at the same time. I have never heard an explanation from a believer that makes sense to me.

I'm not really a believer -- not in full -- but I can accept the Trinity concept in one way, altered by making "the son" all humans. And this explanation had a young ordained minister look at me with interest and a nod of agreement, but I didn't stipulate the aforementioned alteration. LOL

Equal amounts of red, green, and blue light results in [pure] white light.

For my personal twist -- equal amounts of creation/father, life/son, and God/Holy Spirit makes perfection/heaven on earth.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

As I understand it, Trinitarian theologians would call that a heretical view of the Trinity.

I find it an effective analogy to help explain the Trinity to someone who is struggling to understand it.

 

[Niatero]

I'm not really a believer -- not in full -- but I can accept the Trinity concept in one way, altered by making "the son" all humans. And this explanation had a young ordained minister look at me with interest and a nod of agreement, but I didn't stipulate the aforementioned alteration. LOL

Equal amounts of red, green, and blue light results in [pure] white light.

For my personal twist -- equal amounts of creation/father, life/son, and God/Holy Spirit makes perfection/heaven on earth.

As I understand it, Trinitarian theologians would call that a heretical view of the Trinity.

Now I'm thinking that it's funny, people can and do think of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit any way they want to, including any of the ways that the Nicene Creed was designed to exclude, and still think that they're agreeing with the Trinity doctrine. That might be a result of the Trinity triangle substituting in the place of what the Nicene Creed says about it.

 

[Spice]

As I understand it, Trinitarian theologians would call that a heretical view of the Trinity.

No, I've heard that one pretty much my whole life, other than Jesus was ice and the Holy Spirit steam. It has been referred to, quite often as a matter of fact, as incomplete. It is a good way to accept the belief if you need to.

Another such "incomplete" description has been one man can be three persons in father, son, and husband.

 

[Spice]

As I understand it, Trinitarians would call that a heretical view of the Trinity.

Now I'm thinking that it's funny, people can and do think of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit any way they want to, including any of the ways that the Nicene Creed was designed to exclude, and still think that they're agreeing with the Trinity doctrine. That might be a result of the Trinity triangle substituting in the place of what the Nicene Creed says about it.

Oh, I am a Heretic, without question. I'm the personal Christian Heretic of two ordained pastors. I keep them on their toes.

 

[Niatero]

I find it an effective analogy to help explain the Trinity to someone who is struggling to understand it.

I'm sorry, this is just a pet peeve of mine. It's not your fault. It looks to me like the Trinity triangle has defeated the whole purpose of the original Trinity doctrine. Because of the Trinity triangle, people can think about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in all the ways that the Trinity doctrine was designed to exclude, and still think that they're agreeing with the Trinity doctrine. Not saying that's a bad thing, it just annoys me a little, I'm not sure why.

 

[Spice]

I'm sorry, this is just a pet peeve of mine. It's not your fault. It looks to me like the Trinity triangle has defeated the whole purpose of the original Trinity doctrine. Because of the Trinity triangle, people can think about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in all the ways that the Trinity doctrine was designed to exclude, and still think that they're agreeing with the Trinity doctrine. Not saying that's a bad thing, it just annoys me a little, I'm not sure why.

Can you please explain what the original Trinity doctrine's purpose was? That's what the whole question comes down to -- understanding what those early theologians meant. I thought most Christians that have swept the concept aside pretty much agree that it was a way to convert Roman/Greek citizens by tying in their polytheistic beliefs into a monotheistic alternative.

 

[YoursTrue]

As I understand it, Trinitarian theologians would call that a heretical view of the Trinity.

I've heard that analogy from some who believe in and want to explain how a triune godhead exists with three equal persons yet one God, each equal to the other, I suppose. Now that I look at it though, steam is not really equal to water or ice, although the chemical composition is apparently the same in each form of H2O.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

I'm sorry, this is just a pet peeve of mine. It's not your fault. It looks to me like the Trinity triangle has defeated the whole purpose of the original Trinity doctrine. Because of the Trinity triangle, people can think about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in all the ways that the Trinity doctrine was designed to exclude, and still think that they're agreeing with the Trinity doctrine. Not saying that's a bad thing, it just annoys me a little, I'm not sure why.

I am curious how you would define it.

 

[Secret Chief]

Now that I look at it though, steam is not really equal to water or ice, although the chemical composition is apparently the same in each form of H2O.

The same compound in three different physical states, so in what other way is steam not really equal to water and ice?

 

[oldbadger]

I have mentioned in various posts why I parted from Christianity. However, one thing just continues to bug me -the Trinity. It is to me the weirdest thing imaginable, but it is accepted by millions, most of whom I believe are as puzzled as me if they were honest.

It is a big subject so let us start with one factor. Son of God.
Son has biological, legal and social meanings, but what does it mean here? Why would it be considered as making any sense at all?

All Jews had been the children of their God, and so their God was their Father.
But that Jesus was the Son of God was a church construct, I think.

The very first sentence in Mark's Gospel tells that Jesus is 'the Son of God', but in the NIV bible a footnote points out that this title was not present in some early manuscripts.

I reckon that Jesus was a genuine person, but without all the dogma, fabrications and exaggerations.

 

[YoursTrue]

The same compound in three different physical states, so in what other way is steam not really equal to water and ice?

If I go into a steam bath I can't necessarily drink water from the steam unless it changes consistency.

 

[Secret Chief]

If I go into a steam bath I can't necessarily drink water from the steam unless it changes consistency.

You can't drink a solid either (ice) but you put ice and water in the same category (distinct from steam).

 

[YoursTrue]

All Jews had been the children of their God, and so their God was their Father.
But that Jesus was the Son of God was a church construct, I think.

The very first sentence in Mark's Gospel tells that Jesus is 'the Son of God', but in the NIV bible a footnote points out that this title was not present in some early manuscripts.

I reckon that Jesus was a genuine person, but without all the dogma, fabrications and exaggerations.

Sorry, but it's coming to mind that even in the wilderness many rebelled against Moses who was chosen by God to lead His people. Later on, Joshua told the Israelites upon entering the promised land, choose for themselves which God they would worship. And time and again there was rebellion and disobedience. Although there were those who were faithful to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.