The Trinity

[Desert Snake]

'Son of God', is how *we view 'Jesus'. Part of the problem here is thinking Jesus is a man like us who was
Deified' by the church. This is incorrect. Tradition at that time for 'gentiles' was man focused when referencing deities. It may even have been difficult to have a 'god' who wasn't just like us for some in the early church. This is why we get the "emphasis" on the 'man' aspects in much of church tradition.
this is a format that might help to explain things.
-"Jesus", Deity in man form. 'Man' in all respects, Deity by necessity.
(sorry modern 'Christian clerics etc who maintain a non=theistic version of xinity, it aint real), (ie ain't historical)
-Early church /some/ can't handle this idea. Outside of understanding, culture, zeitgeist, previous belief etc. So they "manify" Jesus somewhat. Being honest chaps in general, they still maintain a 'Deific' Jesus, but.....
-Justify this deific nature with the Hebraic 'God', //the father, JHVH; they do this by sort of '''separating''' the natures. Hence the 'trinity doctrine, technically pretty sound but in common thought and possibly even church teaching, sort of confusing.
-The 'church', increasingly becomes more 'secular'. In accordance with secular belief, 'Jesus' (being a man), must not be a Deity! so, His 'role' becomes increasingly a 'middleman' to the 'proposed' god of Judaism.//Judaism actually views Deity /God differently from Xianity
- continuing on. When 'looking' at church history, church academics assume they (the church) 'created' a deific Jesus, because it came up with the trinity Doctrine.
*the followers. It's more of a description. Jesus says He is the only way anyone can know the father, this indicates more than a 'son' role.

 

[katiemygirl]

Matthew 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

So you should be preaching the kingdom

Wrong! The kingdom is here. It came on Pentecost with the power of the Holy Spirit. See Luke 24, Acts 1, 2

We are to preach the gospel, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We must preach that all men can be saved if they have faith.

We are to make disciples, baptizing them in the NAME (singular) of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them everything I have commanded you. Matt. 28:18-20

That's the job God gave to His disciples.

 

[katiemygirl]

If someone 'defines' the kingdom for you, walk away. Jesus always said 'the kingdom 'is like'.....
Jesus is the in-breaking of the Kingdom, it is here but not fulfilled, is now, but not yet.

"Today this scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing."
"The kingdom of God is in the midst of you"
"If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you"

The kingdom of God is the reign of God. The world will be transformed in the Eschaton.

The earth and everything in it will be destroyed when Jesus comes again.

The dead in Christ will rise. Those left will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Then the saved will meet Jesus in the air. He will take His church back to heaven with Him where they will reign forever.

There will be no second chances.

 

[moorea944]

I agree with you that the gifts are not for today. However, I see nothing in the Scriptures which says the gifts would be restored when Jesus comes again. There would be no purpose for Spiritual gifts then.

The Bible repeatedly tells us in various ways that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Well I would say that we are the Temple of God.
If we are accepted into God's kingdom on earth at His son's return, we will be made immortal. We will reign with him a thousands years. In that time, there will still be mortals living on the earth. In Joel where it's talking about the kingdom age, there is this verse that says,
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke"

This is just one of many verses that tell us that the Holy Spirit gifts will come back.

 

[Yes]

The earth and everything in it will be destroyed when Jesus comes again.

The dead in Christ will rise. Those left will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Then the saved will meet Jesus in the air. He will take His church back to heaven with Him where they will reign forever.

There will be no second chances.

Exactly.

We have to be ready now, just in case Jesus comes now, for when Jesus comes again, it will NOT be to bear sin. That is why we must not be caught in sin when Jesus comes. Jesus says to have our clothes on. That means we must always be clothed in Christ. To be clothed in Christ means obey Jesus.


Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Luke 21:34
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap.

1 Corinthians 1:8
He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Revelation 3:3
Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Revelation 16:15
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed

 

[katiemygirl]

Well I would say that we are the Temple of God.
If we are accepted into God's kingdom on earth at His son's return, we will be made immortal. We will reign with him a thousands years. In that time, there will still be mortals living on the earth. In Joel where it's talking about the kingdom age, there is this verse that says,
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke"

This is just one of many verses that tell us that the Holy Spirit gifts will come back.

I'm sorry Moore, but you are repeating what someone else told you. You are not using Scripture.

1. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Granted, the Holy Spirit is God, but the verse says Holy Spirit.

2. We are added to the church/kingdom when we believe, repent and are baptized. The Lord adds us. See Acts 2:36-47

3. The earth and everything in it will be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10

4. Joel is talking about what was happening on Pentecost. He says, "These men are not drunk. What you are seeing and hearing is what was spoken of by the prophet Joel." Acts 2:16

I encourage you to read and study this topic. With all due respect, you are confusing the Left Behind series with the Bible.

 

[katiemygirl]

Exactly.

We have to be ready now, just in case Jesus comes now, for when Jesus comes again, it will NOT be to bear sin. That is why we must not be caught in sin when Jesus comes. Jesus says to have our clothes on. That means we must always be clothed in Christ. To be clothed in Christ means obey Jesus.


Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Luke 21:34
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap.

1 Corinthians 1:8
He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Revelation 3:3
Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Revelation 16:15
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed

Amen! Too many people are depending on a second chance. Jesus spent a lot of time telling us to be ready.

 

[Yes]

Amen! Too many people are depending on a second chance. Jesus spent a lot of time telling us to be ready.

I do believe that if someone dies, they have a chance to still live according to God in their spirit.

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

 

[JayJayDee]

If someone 'defines' the kingdom for you, walk away. Jesus always said 'the kingdom 'is like'.....
Jesus is the in-breaking of the Kingdom, it is here but not fulfilled, is now, but not yet.

Walk away? If we do not know what the kingdom of God is, then how do we fulfill our commission to preach about it?

We cannot go to the people with obscure terms and with baffling and mysterious definitions. The kingdom of God is real. It is ruling as we speak. This is why a Christian cannot give allegiance to any earthly government...their citizenship is not in an earthly kingdom.

Jesus said that if his kingdom was on earth, then his attendants would have fought to defend him....but he said it was "not from this source".

The kingdom is a real government. It has Christ as its king and God has chosen 144,000 faithful humans from the earth who have proven their loyalty to him and his God by preaching about it to all who will listen.

This is a heavenly government that rules over earthly subjects. It rules for 1,000 years. Its objective is to reconcile mankind, alienated from God by sin, back to God's first purpose......which was to have a perfect race of humankind living forever in paradise conditions on earth.

Daniel saw the march of world powers in his God-given visions and was told to seal up his writings which would not be understood till "the time of the end". (Dan 12:4, 9, 10)

The first kingdom mentioned in his prophesy was the dominant power of Daniel's day (Babylon) and the succession of rulerships were those that related directly to God's people. History attests to the accuracy of his words.

The last ruling entity in his prophesy is the current rulership of the Anglo-American world power. In the days of this ruling power, God was going to crush all satanically inspired human rulership out of existence and replace them with a government that would bring obedient mankind back to the conditions Adam and his wife once enjoyed in Eden.

Daniel said.....

"44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever, 45 just as you saw that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the copper, the clay, the silver, and the gold. The Grand God has made known to the king what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and its interpretation is trustworthy.” (Dan 2:44, 45)

This is the replacing of corrupt human rulership with the righteous rulership of God in the capable hands of his Christ.

"Today this scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing."
"The kingdom of God is in the midst of you"
"If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you"

The king of the kingdom was in the midst of those to whom he was speaking.....in this instance, the Pharisees.

The "finger of God" was the working of God's spirit through his son.
All that Jesus did when he was on earth, was a foregleam of what he was going to do as king of his kingdom. The demons will be banished, the sick made well and the dead raised back to life. How could we appreciate all that the kingdom was going to accomplish if eye witnesses had not seen him do all these things and recorded them for the benefit of future generations?

The kingdom of God is the reign of God. The world will be transformed in the Eschaton.

The kingdom of God is a temporary arrangement for the 1,000 years it will take to undo all the damage that the devil has done. It is the means by which God reconciles everything back to conform to his original purpose. (Isa 55:11)

Initially, man needed no savior and no kingdom because they were going to be ruled by their rightful sovereign alone...their Creator, Jehovah God.

Man's fall into sin necessitated a redeemer and the kingdom arrangement as the means to get back what Adam lost for his children. This is the good news!

The kingdom is the means by which God will restore his original purpose for mankind and his beautiful earthly home.

The apostle John wrote at the close of the Revelation.....

"21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” 5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also he says: “Write, for these words are faithful and true." (Rev 21:1-5)

The "holy city" is "New Jerusalem".....The new seat of Jehovah's rulership and worship". It is made up of the "bride of Christ", his 144,000 "joint heirs" who will be "kings and priests" to rule with him in his kingdom. (Rev 20:6) Those who benefit from the kingdom's rule are "mankind" because God is now "with" them in a way he hasn't been able since man's defection over 6,000 years ago. His sovereignty is expressed in the rulership of his son and when the kingdom has accomplished all that God intended for it to do, Jehovah will then go back to being the sole ruler of his earthly family, just as he intended at the beginning. (1 Cor 15:22-28)

Heaven was never meant to be a place for humans to live, and yet Christendom has everyone going there...or to "hell"

 

[moorea944]

I'm sorry Moore, but you are repeating what someone else told you. You are not using Scripture.

1. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Granted, the Holy Spirit is God, but the verse says Holy Spirit.

2. We are added to the church/kingdom when we believe, repent and are baptized. The Lord adds us. See Acts 2:36-47

3. The earth and everything in it will be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10

4. Joel is talking about what was happening on Pentecost. He says, "These men are not drunk. What you are seeing and hearing is what was spoken of by the prophet Joel." Acts 2:16

I encourage you to read and study this topic. With all due respect, you are confusing the Left Behind series with the Bible.

[I'm sorry Moore, but you are repeating what someone else told you. You are not using Scripture.]
LOL. Not at all. It's just different from what you thought it would be.

[1. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Granted, the Holy Spirit is God, but the verse says Holy Spirit.]
We are the temple of God. Why are you putting the Holy Spirit in there, that is God's power and wisdom. That is part of God. His power.

[2. We are added to the church/kingdom when we believe, repent and are baptized. The Lord adds us. See Acts 2:36-47]
Added to the church? What church? First of all, the kingdom is not here yet. Christ "sets up" the kingdom at his return. When we are baptised, are names are in the book of life and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit which is the gift eternal life. And again, we dont get that until Christ returns.

[3. The earth and everything in it will be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10]
That is not literal, it is symbollic. First of all, the Kingdom will be on earth. Heavens, earth, moon, stars, all represent things in scripture. The earth will never be destroyed. That would go against God's plans. You need to know what is symbollic and literal.

[4. Joel is talking about what was happening on Pentecost. He says, "These men are not drunk. What you are seeing and hearing is what was spoken of by the prophet Joel." Acts 2:16]
Actaully he's not. Joel is talking about a future prophecy. Peter is mentioning that to the people he is talking about.

[I encourage you to read and study this topic. With all due respect, you are confusing the Left Behind series with the Bible.]
I already have. I'm not confusing anyone. You need to read the whole chapter, not just a few verses.

 

[cataway]

Wrong! The kingdom is here. It came on Pentecost with the power of the Holy Spirit. See Luke 24, Acts 1, 2

We are to preach the gospel, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We must preach that all men can be saved if they have faith.

We are to make disciples, baptizing them in the NAME (singular) of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them everything I have commanded you. Matt. 28:18-20

That's the job God gave to His disciples.

I see we have something to talk about. to be frank ,you don't know what the kingdom is and what it will do . right now ,we are in Christ's presence . when the time comes there will be things happening that are yet in prophecy. I give you this warning found in the book of revelation 18 :4
Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.
do you know why and what it means ?

 

[Wharton]

And yet not once do you explain why Jesus had to be God to accomplish what he did as Messiah. He was sent from heaven because he was a mighty spirit son of God.....he didn't have to BE God to do any of what you said.

He has to be both God and man to atone for the sin of Adam. There is no way around it.

 

[JayJayDee]

He has to be both God and man to atone for the sin of Adam. There is no way around it.

How do you figure that? Indoctrination with a false belief is the only way you could come to that conclusion. The Bible does not support that assumption at all.

Jesus had to be Adam's equivalent. A perfect human life had to be offered for a perfect human life to balance the scales of justice. Jesus did not have to be God to provide the ransom price. If God had paid it, with his own life, that would first of all be overkill to the Max, and second of all impossible because God cannot die.

Use your power of reason man.....can mere humans kill God? Seriously?

 

[Wharton]

How do you figure that? Indoctrination with a false belief is the only way you could come to that conclusion. The Bible does not support that assumption at all.

Jesus had to be Adam's equivalent. A perfect human life had to be offered for a perfect human life to balance the scales of justice. Jesus did not have to be God to provide the ransom price. If God had paid it, with his own life, that would first of all be overkill to the Max, and second of all impossible because God cannot die.

Use your power of reason man.....can mere humans kill God? Seriously?

It's in your JW indoctrination which fails all logic. I can't help that.

A: Your logic fails in that you think a perfect man can balance the scales of justice. IF a perfect man was offended in the Garden of Eden, then the sacrifice of a perfect man would balance the scales of justice. But more than a perfect man was offended. God was offended, not a perfect man. The infinite was offended not the finite. You need an infinite man (God/man) for the sacrifice to balance the scales of justice. Logical, huh?

B: If you read scripture carefully, you will see that Jesus committed suicide. "No one takes my life,etc" He goes to Jerusalem knowing that he will be killed. Peter tells him not to go. Jesus calls him Satan. Jesus is on a death mission. That is clear from scripture. You can't do that as a human being as only God holds all of the rights to the time of life and death, not to mention that God does not accept human sacrifice (Abraham and Isaac scenario). You have improper matter (human) for a sacrifice. And you need proper matter and proper form for an acceptable sacrifice. Your perfect man Jesus is neither. And even if you think a perfect man is proper matter for an acceptable sacrifice, your sacrifice fails because you believe that the body of Jesus went poof after death. Proper form requires the priest to present the sacrifice to God, the Father, which Jesus was in the process of doing when he told Mary Magdalene not to hang on to him as he had not yet ascended to the Father. You have no sacrificial body to present to the Father. What you have is improper matter (human) and improper form (no sacrificial body to present.) Your beliefs leave you with no ransom sacrifice. No redemption.

C: God, as a person, died on the cross. For you to be fully redeemed, all aspects of human life has to be experienced by Jesus, including death. Jesus doesn't have to say he is God. His actions prove he is God. If you believe Jesus is just a man, then he willingly committed suicide and that is an affront to God and is a sin. Your perfect sacrifice is no longer perfect. He's a sinner and your perfect man ransom scenario is destroyed.

 

[Yes]

I see we have something to talk about. to be frank ,you don't know what the kingdom is and what it will do . right now ,we are in Christ's presence . when the time comes there will be things happening that are yet in prophecy. I give you this warning found in the book of revelation 18 :4
Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.
do you know why and what it means ?

The kingdom of heaven is within those who are saved. When we are saved we are in the realm of the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

 

[cataway]

Your logic fails in that you think a perfect man can balance the scales of justice. IF a perfect man was offended in the Garden of Eden, then the sacrifice of a perfect man would balance the scales of justice

and just were would this perfect man come from at that time ?

 

[cataway]

The kingdom of heaven is within those who are saved

you do not yet understand what the kingdom is. you speak as if the kingdom were an emotion .

 

[katiemygirl]

[I'm sorry Moore, but you are repeating what someone else told you. You are not using Scripture.]
LOL. Not at all. It's just different from what you thought it would be.

[1. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Granted, the Holy Spirit is God, but the verse says Holy Spirit.]
We are the temple of God. Why are you putting the Holy Spirit in there, that is God's power and wisdom. That is part of God. His power.

[2. We are added to the church/kingdom when we believe, repent and are baptized. The Lord adds us. See Acts 2:36-47]
Added to the church? What church? First of all, the kingdom is not here yet. Christ "sets up" the kingdom at his return. When we are baptised, are names are in the book of life and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit which is the gift eternal life. And again, we dont get that until Christ returns.

[3. The earth and everything in it will be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10]
That is not literal, it is symbollic. First of all, the Kingdom will be on earth. Heavens, earth, moon, stars, all represent things in scripture. The earth will never be destroyed. That would go against God's plans. You need to know what is symbollic and literal.

[4. Joel is talking about what was happening on Pentecost. He says, "These men are not drunk. What you are seeing and hearing is what was spoken of by the prophet Joel." Acts 2:16]
Actaully he's not. Joel is talking about a future prophecy. Peter is mentioning that to the people he is talking about.

[I encourage you to read and study this topic. With all due respect, you are confusing the Left Behind series with the Bible.]
I already have. I'm not confusing anyone. You need to read the whole chapter, not just a few verses.

Each of us must work out his/her own salvation. I wish you the best.

 

[katiemygirl]

Walk away? If we do not know what the kingdom of God is, then how do we fulfill our commission to preach about it?

We cannot go to the people with obscure terms and with baffling and mysterious definitions. The kingdom of God is real. It is ruling as we speak. This is why a Christian cannot give allegiance to any earthly government...their citizenship is not in an earthly kingdom.

Jesus said that if his kingdom was on earth, then his attendants would have fought to defend him....but he said it was "not from this source".

The kingdom is a real government. It has Christ as its king and God has chosen 144,000 faithful humans from the earth who have proven their loyalty to him and his God by preaching about it to all who will listen.

This is a heavenly government that rules over earthly subjects. It rules for 1,000 years. Its objective is to reconcile mankind, alienated from God by sin, back to God's first purpose......which was to have a perfect race of humankind living forever in paradise conditions on earth.

Daniel saw the march of world powers in his God-given visions and was told to seal up his writings which would not be understood till "the time of the end". (Dan 12:4, 9, 10)

The first kingdom mentioned in his prophesy was the dominant power of Daniel's day (Babylon) and the succession of rulerships were those that related directly to God's people. History attests to the accuracy of his words.

The last ruling entity in his prophesy is the current rulership of the Anglo-American world power. In the days of this ruling power, God was going to crush all satanically inspired human rulership out of existence and replace them with a government that would bring obedient mankind back to the conditions Adam and his wife once enjoyed in Eden.

Daniel said.....

"44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever, 45 just as you saw that out of the mountain a stone was cut not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the copper, the clay, the silver, and the gold. The Grand God has made known to the king what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and its interpretation is trustworthy.” (Dan 2:44, 45)

This is the replacing of corrupt human rulership with the righteous rulership of God in the capable hands of his Christ.



The king of the kingdom was in the midst of those to whom he was speaking.....in this instance, the Pharisees.

The "finger of God" was the working of God's spirit through his son.
All that Jesus did when he was on earth, was a foregleam of what he was going to do as king of his kingdom. The demons will be banished, the sick made well and the dead raised back to life. How could we appreciate all that the kingdom was going to accomplish if eye witnesses had not seen him do all these things and recorded them for the benefit of future generations?



The kingdom of God is a temporary arrangement for the 1,000 years it will take to undo all the damage that the devil has done. It is the means by which God reconciles everything back to conform to his original purpose. (Isa 55:11)

Initially, man needed no savior and no kingdom because they were going to be ruled by their rightful sovereign alone...their Creator, Jehovah God.

Man's fall into sin necessitated a redeemer and the kingdom arrangement as the means to get back what Adam lost for his children. This is the good news!

The kingdom is the means by which God will restore his original purpose for mankind and his beautiful earthly home.

The apostle John wrote at the close of the Revelation.....

"21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” 5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also he says: “Write, for these words are faithful and true." (Rev 21:1-5)

The "holy city" is "New Jerusalem".....The new seat of Jehovah's rulership and worship". It is made up of the "bride of Christ", his 144,000 "joint heirs" who will be "kings and priests" to rule with him in his kingdom. (Rev 20:6) Those who benefit from the kingdom's rule are "mankind" because God is now "with" them in a way he hasn't been able since man's defection over 6,000 years ago. His sovereignty is expressed in the rulership of his son and when the kingdom has accomplished all that God intended for it to do, Jehovah will then go back to being the sole ruler of his earthly family, just as he intended at the beginning. (1 Cor 15:22-28)

Heaven was never meant to be a place for humans to live, and yet Christendom has everyone going there...or to "hell"

Every christian is a priest, and every christian is in the kingdom NOW.

It never ceases to amaze me how much emphasis some religions put on the book of Revelation.

Not one time in the rest of the NT is the thousand years mentioned, nor is the 144,000, yet so many people, including JW's, are dogmatic about these single, solitary verses. Whole doctrines are built upon them, and they have become the focus, rather than the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Revelation is prophetic. None of us can interpret it perfectly as evidenced by the thousands of commentaries available. Yet so many claim their understanding is the one and only right one.

Those who read, hear and heed the words of the prophesy will be blessed.

The message of Revelation is simple. Things were going to get very bad for the people living during John's time. He encouraged them to be faithful unto death and they would receive the crown of life.

For me, I don't really care if my future is in heaven, or some sort of restored earthly paradise. What matters is that when Jesus comes again, I am righteous in the eyes of God, and will be with Him forever. This is my focus.

 

[pearl]

A: Your logic fails in that you think a perfect man can balance the scales of justice. IF a perfect man was offended in the Garden of Eden, then the sacrifice of a perfect man would balance the scales of justice. But more than a perfect man was offended. God was offended, not a perfect man. The infinite was offended not the finite. You need an infinite man (God/man) for the sacrifice to balance the scales of justice.

This model assumes that Jesus was God's afterthought, whose only purpose was to be humanity's scapegoat in order to appease a vengeful God. The Gospel of John tells us that Jesus was with God from eternity. In 1John we are told that God is love, not does
he love, but is love itself. The [God/man] is God's desire to be one with us.