The Trinity

[Wharton]

Then if Jesus was God in the flesh, where was the God He prayed to. And why did God need to pray to Himself in the first place.

The love between God the Father and God the Son is infinite and beyond comprehension. Jesus, while on earth, was able to physically express that love by praying to his father.

 

[Wharton]

What was Jesus...?

• before being born to Mary: longest-living angel; mortal
• before dying: human; exact equivalent of Adam prior to sin; mortal
• when dead: nonexistent
• upon resurrection: angel; immortal (thus a new creation)

A Transformer? My kids played with those.

He's begotten by the Father. Thus, of the same substance as his father. Begotten of the same substance as his father in the ETERNAL NOW. There is no time in the eternal now. Thus, there was no 'time' when Jesus did not exist as God.

BTW, if Jesus was just a mere archangel, which would be equivalent to an Army corporal, why didn't God send a higher General rank angel to do his will, like a cherubim or seraphim?

 

[Sonofason]

The love between God the Father and God the Son is infinite and beyond comprehension. Jesus, while on earth, was able to physically express that love by praying to his father.

I agree. There is no denying the love between God and His Son, but that is in no way an indication that the Father is the Son. While it could be self love, I see no reason to think that the Father and the Son are the very same being. In fact, I believe that runs somewhat counter-intuitive. I certainly do not intend to suggest that I am even capable of understanding this Father/Son relationship.

I see my daughter. She is completely something that came directly from myself and my wife. One could think that she is in one person my wife and myself. Yet she is certainly distinct from my wife and myself. What indeed do we make of this? I honestly don't know.

 

[Wharton]

Well, can you tell me where it says that in the Bible? What has "offence" got to do with anything? Adam did not just offend God...he disobeyed a direct command that carried the death penalty, thereby condemning himself and his children to a life of inherited sin and death. His perfect life was lost and along with it, the perfect life he should have passed onto his children. (Rom 5:12) The perfect sacrifice of Jesus paid for what Adam did. A perfect life was offered in exchange for a perfect life.
If you begin with a wrong premise, everything you say after that will be wrong too.

You just stated that God was offended. The infinite was offended. The finite can not atone to the infinite.

 

[Kolibri]

BTW, if Jesus was just a mere archangel, which would be equivalent to an Army corporal, why didn't God send a higher General rank angel to do his will, like a cherubim or seraphim?

Bible only speaks of only one Archangel, or "chief angel," or "principal angel" - Michael. There is evidence that this is Jesus in both his pre-human and his post-human existence.

"because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." - 1 Thessalonians 4:16

There is collaborating evidence in the Bible books of Daniel and Revelation that attribute Michael as doing the very same things Jesus is said to do in other places.

 

[Wharton]

I agree. There is no denying the love between God and His Son, but that is in no way an indication that the Father is the Son. While it could be self love, I see no reason to think that the Father and the Son are the very same being. In fact, I believe that runs somewhat counter-intuitive. I certainly do not intend to suggest that I am even capable of understanding this Father/Son relationship.

I see my daughter. She is completely something that came directly from myself and my wife. One could think that she is in one person my wife and myself. Yet she is certainly distinct from my wife and myself. What indeed do we make of this? I honestly don't know.

The father is not the son. They are of the same substance (Divine). You and your daughter are of the same substance (human)

 

[Wharton]

"because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." - 1 Thessalonians 4:16

So Jesus will return being announced by an archangel with a trumpet, like royalty. Just like his birth was announced by angels. It doesn't mean that Jesus is an archangel.

 

[Wharton]

Jesus did not commit suicide. He was martyred...big difference.

Of course he committed suicide, if he's a mere man. He knows if he goes to Jerusalem that he will be killed. He even tells the apostles that, then he goes anyway. Any other time when the Jews tried to kill him, he walked through the crowds unharmed. This time, no. He's a scriptural genius from 12 years old on, yet he offers no defense at his trial. He states that he has the authority to lay down his life. A martyr needs no such authority. He states "no one takes my life." So who causes his death? Jesus himself. A martyr doesn't make plans to die on a certain day. Now if Jesus is God, he has the authority, as he stated, to do as he pleases.

 

[Sonofason]

Bible only speaks of only one Archangel, or "chief angel," or "principal angel" - Michael. There is evidence that this is Jesus in both his pre-human and his post-human existence.

"because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." - 1 Thessalonians 4:16

There is collaborating evidence in the Bible books of Daniel and Revelation that attribute Michael as doing the very same things Jesus is said to do in other places.

That is very interesting, and quite honestly something I've never noticed and even considered.

 

[Wharton]

God's law contained the death penalty. Those who were found guilty of murder paid with their own lives. Jesus life was a ransom, which is the price placed on value of that life. In Jesus' case, a perfect life was given in exchange for a perfect life. God did not take Jesus' life and Jesus did not take his own life. Therefore no law of God was broken except by the Jewish religious leaders. For their sin, Jesus said "Gehenna" (not hell) awaited them.

As an Orthodox Jew under the Law,' human only Jesus' would know along with the rest of the Jews, that human sacrifice is not acceptable to God. It's against the Law. It has no value. Jews don't do human sacrifice.

 

[Sonofason]

The father is not the son. They are of the same substance (Divine). You and your daughter are of the same substance (human)

Indeed the life in me passed from me into my daughter. The life in both of us is the same life, a life that now incorporates two individual bodies. Please note that I am considering my wife as myself, as the scriptures state, the two shall be one flesh.

 

[Sonofason]

So Jesus will return being announced by an archangel with a trumpet, like royalty. Just like his birth was announced by angels. It doesn't mean that Jesus is an archangel.

While Kolibri's hypothesis is intriguing, I tend to agree with what you are saying here. Jesus' coming will be announced by the Arch Angel. We will not see this Arch Angel, but we will here his voice, along with the sound of the Trumpet of God.

 

[Sonofason]

As an Orthodox Jew under the Law,' human only Jesus' would know along with the rest of the Jews, that human sacrifice is not acceptable to God. It's against the Law. It has no value. Jews don't do human sacrifice.

And so you therefore believe that Jesus was not human. Is that right?

 

[Wharton]

And so you therefore believe that Jesus was not human. Is that right?

Fully human. Fully God. God taking on human nature. That's the only way you get a ransom sacrifice.

Scripture states that you will be judged by Jesus, not an arch angel, as some believe. Angels don't judge. God does. Plus, God is not going to let you use the Johnnie Cochrane, O J Simpson "If the glove does not fit, then you must acquit" defense when you stand before him to be judged. You're not going to be able to say that you can't be fairly judged because God doesn't know what it's like/how hard it is to be human or to die. That's where Jesus steps in and judges. He has the full experience of being human, including death.

 

[Wharton]

Of course, I agree that the idea is absurd, and highly unlikely. But I would not suggest it is not possible. What exactly is God incapable of? Surely, there are things He is not capable of doing. I'm not sure this is one of those things.

See my post above.

 

[Sonofason]

Fully human. Fully God. God taking on human nature. That's the only way you get a ransom sacrifice.

Scripture states that you will be judged by Jesus, not an arch angel, as some believe. Angels don't judge. God does. Plus, God is not going to let you use the Johnnie Cochrane, O J Simpson "If the glove does not fit, then you must acquit" defense when you stand before him to be judged. You're not going to be able to say that you can't be fairly judged because God doesn't know what it's like/how hard it is to be human or to die. That's where Jesus steps in and judges. He has the full experience of being human, including death.

"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead."
(Acts 10:42)

If Jesus is God, why was it necessary for God to appoint Jesus as Judge of the living and the dead.

 

[Sonofason]

See my post above.

See my post above

 

[Kolibri]

"For God 'subjected all things under his feet.' (Ps 8:6) But when he says that 'all things have been subjected,' (Heb 2:8) it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. (1Pe 3:22) But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, (Joh 14:28) that God may be all things to everyone. (1Co 3:23) - 1 Corinthians 15:28,29

Jesus, after bringing all creation back into harmony with God's will, then returns the authority given to him by God. How can he be both the authority giver and the authority receiver? Does not the idea that God is Jesus create a lot of confusion when reading verses like this?

 

[moorea944]

"For God 'subjected all things under his feet.' (Ps 8:6) But when he says that 'all things have been subjected,' (Heb 2:8) it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. (1Pe 3:22) But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, (Joh 14:28) that God may be all things to everyone. (1Co 3:23) - 1 Corinthians 15:28,29

Jesus, after bringing all creation back into harmony with God's will, then returns the authority given to him by God. How can he be both the authority giver and the authority receiver? Does not the idea that God is Jesus create a lot of confusion when reading verses like this?

How true. Jesus has always be under subjection to the Father. And always will be. Even when Christ does return to earth, he starts and finishes the Kingdom and then when it is complete after the thousand years, he then hand it over to his Father and will still be in subject to Him.

 

[Wharton]

"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead."
(Acts 10:42)

If Jesus is God, why was it necessary for God to appoint Jesus as Judge of the living and the dead.

Once again, God the Father has no experience in being human. Jesus, God the Son, does. You want to be fairly judged by a peer not by one who has no experience of being human.