The Trinity

[Mark2020]

I lay down my life, that I might take it again. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again...See John 10:17-18

Allow me to give him one from the NWT:
John 2
19 In answer Jesus said to them: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”20 Therefore the Jews said: “This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was talking about the temple of his body.

 

[icebuddy]

Once again, bow down and worship are the same thing, if you refuse to accept this fact, there's no point in discussing.

Thats a bold statement. The dictionary doesnt agree with you, so why should I? I will agree that we do disagree. im trying to zero in on your thoughts, so do you believe the dictionary is wrong? Or is there another answer Im missing on your thoughts here? If you are saying the Greek word can be translated either way, I could understand, but to say Bowing down is the same as worship is odd to me. Worship is so much deeper than a physical bow, Like 2 chinese greeting eachother...

You skipped my questions about the other Angels being worshiped for good reason. I also mentioned that the Angel specifically told John that the reason he wouldn't accept Worship was because the Angel himself was a prophet as well and thus of the same rank as John, and there are ranks of angels.

The Angel told John, Worship God. If you were correct, i would expect to see him say, Worship only those greater than yourself. Can you find a passage in the bible that commands us to worship those greater than us? Again, Im trying to figure out your thoughts

Otherwise, the Angel of the Wilderness accepted worship from Moses.

The Angel in the Wilderness was Gods meathod of appearing to Mosses. The Angel of YHWH and YHWH seem to have a connection unlike any other. The Angel speaks as God in the first-person, recieves Worship as God, People see him as God, He identifies himself as God, and is basicaly the Image of God of the old Testament.

in Love,
Tom

 

[Shermana]

Instead of the modern dictionary, try a word Etymology or a Lexicon or a concordance. The word "Worship" is different in modern English than it was in the 1500s where Judges were referred to as "Your worship" which meant "Your worthiness". The angel didn't have to say "Only worship those greater", he specifically implies it with what he said that they were both prophets. Why did he say they were both prophets, just for the heck of it? These are important details. But important details are rarely important for Trinitarians it seems. Did you not see where I said that an Angel also received worship from Balaam or was that another thread? If an Angel receives worship even if as a representative, why not worship G-d directly instead of the Angel?

7812. shachah​

7813 >>​

shachah: to bow down​

Original Word: שָׁחָה
Transliteration: shachah
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-khaw')
Short Definition: worship

Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to bow down
NASB Word Usage
bow (5), bow ourselves down (1), bow yourselves down (1), bow down (21), bowed (16), bowed in worship (1), bowed themselves down (2), bowed down (14), bowing (1), bowing down (1), bows down (1), did homage (1), down in homage (1), homage (1), lie down (1), paid homage (3), prostrate (2), prostrated (13), prostrating (1), weighs it down (1), worship (47), worshiped (31), worshiping (3), worships (2).


<< 4351

4352. proskuneó​

4353 >>​

proskuneó: to do reverence to​

Original Word: &#960;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#954;&#965;&#957;&#941;&#969;
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proskuneó
Phonetic Spelling: (pros-koo-neh'-o)
Short Definition: I worship
Definition: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.

4352 proskyné&#333; (from 4314 /prós, "towards" and kyneo, "to kiss") &#8211; properly, to kiss the ground when prostrating before a superior; to worship, ready "to fall down/prostrate oneself to adore on one's knees" (DNTT); to "do obeisance" (BAGD).
["The basic meaning of 4352 (proskyné&#333;), in the opinion of most scholars, is to kiss. . . . On Egyptian reliefs worshipers are represented with outstretched hand throwing a kiss to (pros-) the deity" (DNTT, 2, 875,876).
4352 (proskyne&#333;) has been (metaphorically) described as "the kissing-ground" between believers (the Bride) and Christ (the heavenly Bridegroom). While this is true, 4352 (proskyné&#333;) suggests the willingness to make all necessary physical gestures of obeisance.]

 

[icebuddy]

the trinity is ALL dogma created by the early church fathers/bishops and a roman emporer.

The Early church Fathers didnt "Create" the trinity. What they did is define God because many different beliefs were arising. They took all the letters of the New Testament together and defined the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I see it as no different as Newton defining Gravity. Gravity Always existed, but someone needed to Define it. Could we say Newton theory of Gravity is all dogma created by a scientist?

This is a debate forum for the purpose of education. If you dont want a education on the subject, why participate?

A debate is a "Logical" arguement, where one examines the subject. What I have seen from you is not Logical Arguements. If you would like to use logic, then i have no problem with that.

In Love
Tom

 

[Shermana]

Actually, we don't know if Gravity actually exists or is some illusory force. (Yes this is relative to the topic). It could just be the friction of Dark Matter that happens to so perfectly keep everything in Orbital balance. So happens to.

[1001.0785] On the Origin of Gravity and the Laws of Newton



To quote Newton:

"

But the force of attraction does not exist, we do not see it; it is merely a word used to abbreviate speech&#8221; Newton cited by Claude Bernard in An Introduction to the Study of Experimental Medicine, Part two, I.IV. (1865)"

 

[javajo]

Interesting article here on the Connection of the Occult to many religions: Religions: The Occult Connection

 

[icebuddy]

Instead of the modern dictionary, try a word Etymology or a Lexicon or a concordance. The word "Worship" is different in modern English than it was in the 1500s where Judges were referred to as "Your worship" which meant "Your worthiness".

If you are saying the Greek word can be translated differently, then I can understand your belief, but if you are saying the english word rendered for worship is the same as bowing, then I disagree.

The angel didn't have to say "Only worship those greater", he specifically implies it with what he said that they were both prophets. Why did he say they were both prophets, just for the heck of it? These are important details.

If I were President of the USA and you were my gardner, if you came to Worship me, I would say, Do not do it, I am a man as you are a man, Worship Only God. Thats how I see the passage at hand. My Point is that Paul worshipped Jesus. Im not sure if you think less, but we are to honor Jesus as we honor the Father, do you believe this?

But important details are rarely important for Trinitarians it seems.

Nice, But what you see as a detail in your favor, I see as a detail in my favor. Talking of details, who is speaking in Rev 22:13? Lets see...

Did you not see where I said that an Angel also received worship from Balaam or was that another thread? If an Angel receives worship even if as a representative, why not worship G-d directly instead of the Angel?

I posted about the Angel of the Lord and i deleted by mistake. The Angel of the Lord is how God spoke to moses and all the Olt Test people directly. This angel spoke as God in the First Person, he is identified as God, referrs to himself as God, and seen as God. Is this just an angel, NO. If my Dog started talking and God said Im speaking to you and I knew God was talking through my Dog and I worshipped, who would I be worshipping? My Dog or God? you are the one that said I didnt pay attention to details, but this is a debate fourm... Do you understand my point?

Tom

 

[icebuddy]

Actually, we don't know if Gravity actually exists or is some illusory force. (Yes this is relative to the topic). It could just be the friction of Dark Matter that happens to so perfectly keep everything in Orbital balance. So happens to.

Would you agree our universe is made up of Time, Sapce, Matter?

Tom

 

[Shermana]

Talking of details, who is speaking in Rev 22:13? Lets see...

That would be an angel conveying a message from the Father, this is well discussed on other threads, those who don't know that its an angel reveal that they haven't read anything of Chapter 22, except verse 13. Jesus is not talking until after the Angel is done talking when he says "I Jesus have sent my angel to bear a message". It's a similar situation to 1:8 and 1:11 where the speaker issue is confused. At first it was surprising how often the "Speaker issue" is confused in Revelation, but now I'm less surprised as I see why. Is the Father the Bright Morning Star too? What does that mean?

And yes, the "Angel of the LORD" was just an angel. I don't see what details I skipped out on, you made up your own details on that part. Comparing it to a Talking dog doesn't help your case. It says he worshiped the angel, anything more is just reading into it. Did you not see what I said about Balaam?

 

[icebuddy]

And yes, the "Angel of the LORD" was just an angel.

Did you understand my point about God speaking through my Dog? That although my Dog is just a dog, in whom I would never worship. If God spoke to me through my Dog and I worshipped, who would I be worshipping? God

So this Angel of the Lord who God was speaking through and everyone said was God, who where they worshipping? The Angel or God? The details are plain and simple. If you were to ask all people that you are accusing of worshipping an angel, i bet all of them would say NO we where worshipping God who was speaking through the angel.

Tom

 

[Shermana]

Yes, I understood your point, and I disagree with it. Comparing an angel to a talking dog doesn't make your point valid. You basically ignored the situation of Balaam. Saying that worshiping an angel = Worshiping G-d is actually kind of the point I'm trying to make in the end, except some angels receive it and some don't apparently. In the end, the Angel ends up being worshiped. The word "Worship" simply means to bow down to, so nonetheless, the angel is being bowed down to, whether that worship is devoted to the service of the one who sent him or not.

Nonetheless, by worshiping the angel, one may be serving G-d, as they are commanded to Serve G-d alone.

 

[icebuddy]

That would be an angel conveying a message from the Father, this is well discussed on other threads, those who don't know that its an angel reveal that they haven't read anything of Chapter 22, except verse 13. Jesus is not talking until after the Angel is done talking.

Another detail used by people not seeing Jesus as God. Why do you believe it is the Father over Jesus? This is a belief issue, because no where does it say the Father and in the verses to come we read its Jesus comming and Jesus who is speaking through this same angel. Please explain to me why you believe its the Father speaking in Rev 22:13 because it doesnt say that specificaly.

Tom

 

[Shermana]

So you also believe that G-d is the Morning Star?

 

[javajo]

We are not to worship angels :no:. We are to worship God alone :yes:.

 

[Shermana]

Looks like Moses and Joshua sinned pretty gravely, along with the Angels who received the worship. Looks like David sinned by accepting Worship too! But it never says that was one of the sins he was punished for.

The commandment is to "Worship G-d and Serve Him only".

 

[icebuddy]

You basically ignored the situation of Balaam. Saying that worshiping an angel = Worshiping G-d is actually kind of the point I'm trying to make in the end

Where does it say they worshipped the Angel? They worshiped God who was using the angel as a vehicle. If I drove up into a Drive through with my car and ordered food through a Metal BOX where someone said "May I take your order". I no way would I think the metal box was the one speaking to me. The Angel of the Lord is this Metal Box. The people worshipped GOD, not the metal box(angel).

except some angels receive it and some don't apparently.

Give me an example of where a plain old angel without God speaking through him is being worshipped by himself.

In the end, the Angel ends up being worshiped.

I cant wait to ask Moses, Baalam, and all those who you think worshipped this angel who they where actualy worshipping. I know all of them would say God not the angel.

The word "Worship" simply means to bow down to, so nonetheless, the angel is being bowed down to, whether that worship is devoted to the service of the one who sent him or not.

In Star wars The Emporer(Darth Sidious) is imaged to Darth vader through a imaged video. Darth Vader bows to the video image of the Emporer. Was Dather Vader worshipping the Video or the Emporer? God used the Angel of the Lord as his Imaged Video.... Do you understand?

Nonetheless, by worshiping the angel, one may be serving G-d, as they are commanded to Serve G-d alone.

Again, No one worshipped the angel, they were worshipping God who was DIRECTLY speaking, using the angel of the Lord as his Vehicle of DIRECT communications. Next time you tell someone that "I LOVE YOU" over the phone, ask yourself, did you just tell the phone that you loved it or the Person speaking on the other end?

In Love,
Tom

 

[icebuddy]

So you also believe that G-d is the Morning Star?

You cannot win a debate with that question. Jesus is the image of God, expressing Gods very being by his existance. Is your image of God any less than God?

Do you look to the Image of God, the one who expresses Gods Glory to the Fullest and say NOT GOD?

in Love,
tom

 

[Shermana]

You cannot win a debate with that question. Jesus is the image of God, expressing Gods very being by his existance. Is your image of God any less than God?

in Love,
tom

So that's a refusal to answer my question, try the discussion boards instead. You are welcome to partake in your solar (Morning star) worship all you want.

PS IMage of = representative of. You are right that he is expressing G-d, because that's what he is, the Created Representative.

 

[javajo]

Jesus is "the express image of his (God's) person", Heb. 1:3, yes :yes:.

 

[icebuddy]

So that's a refusal to answer my question, try the discussion boards instead. You are welcome to partake in your solar (Morning star) worship all you want.

Jesus answered questions with questions too. But i will answer your question. The Eternal Word who was God and with God was made Flesh. The Offspring of David is the humanity nature the word(Jesus) took on, the root or creator of David is the Devine nature of Jesus.

Psalms 102:25-27 - Can this be said about anyone but God?

PS IMage of = representative of. You are right that he is expressing G-d, because that's what he is, the Created Representative.

Image of = your private interpitation. Next time you look in the mirror and see your own image just tell yourself thats not you...

1Jo 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life&#8212;
1Jo 1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us&#8212;
1Jo 1:3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
1Jo 1:4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

Doesnt sound Created to me. Ask yourself a question: What does the devil want us to do? NOT worship Jesus, Look to the Image of God and say: NOT GOD, call the eternal word created...

What makes you think the Eternal word was created?

In Love,
Tom