The Trinity

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Yes, I am quite aware of the story.

Obviously.

I do recognize what you are alleging, Fatima, however in the sense that I mean it, it is a quite legitimate comparison. Uncomfortable though it is, it is an inescapable truth. Do try to appreciate the simple fact that I would never expect Muslims to agree with this perception as you are too close to the forest to see the trees.

OKey , then theres no place for a debate. You think you hold the truth as much as I believe I am.

 

[Composer]

OKey , then theres no place for a debate. You think you hold the truth as much as I believe I am.

But ' thinking ' one has the Truth and legitimately demonstrating it are two different kettles of fish!

You need to legitimately demonstrate that your beliefs are legitimate as do we all and provide legitimate evidence for it?

The Qu'ran & Bible are NOT legitimate evidence, but are the words of men and there is NO legitimate evidence to legitimately demonstrate otherwise!

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

there is NO legitimate evidence to legitimately demonstrate otherwise!

There is load of them, unless you choose not to find them or ask about them

 

[Composer]

There is load of them, unless you choose not to find them or ask about them

So as you claimed to have found them -

Prove to me by what you claim to have found that the Bible is the literal word of a God?

Prove to me by what you have found that the Qu'ran is the literal word of a God?

Thanks for your time

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

In able to do that, I have to know first if you have ever read Quran. Can you tell me please?

Best regards

 

[Composer]

In able to do that, I have to know first if you have ever read Quran. Can you tell me please?

Best regards

I have read the bible many times more than the Qu'ran.

I have several copies of the Qu'ran by various Moslem translators. 1 Hard copy and several electronic formats by e.g. YUSUFALI, PICKTHAL, SHAKIR.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

But what im asking it if you have ever read Quran carefully ?

Sorry for bothering

Ps: Ive been told that the yusuf ali translation is the best, not sure but you can try to start with that one.

 

[Composer]

But what im asking it if you have ever read Quran carefully ?

The Mormons also ask similar questions. e.g. IF you really read the Book of Mormon then you would just know in your heart that the BoM is Gods Word.

So called christians make the same claim about their bible.

So IF you don't believe their book is ' the one true book ' then the reasons are endless e.g. You didn't read them properly. You didn't read them with the right attitude. Your Faith is weak. Your heart wasn't focused on really listening to it? etc. etc.

So each one makes claims that ' their book ' is the only book.

So how did you know that your book was ' the only right book ' and your evidence to support you please? e.g. You heard voices telling you it was? You got a warm and fuzzy feeling when you read it? You won Lotto the next day after reading it or some other good fortune / other reasons?

Do you also denounce the Hadiths etc. and all external Qu'ranic books? (Your reasons and evidence please?)

Are ALL Muslems in agreement with you about that?

Sorry for bothering

No bother, but it would be nice if you reciprocated my questions also e.g.

What group would Mahomet belong to today and why the other groups are not suitable and why they don't agree with each other yet the Qu'ran is claimed to be ' Allah's clear message? '

Ps: Ive been told that the yusuf ali translation is the best, not sure but you can try to start with that one.

Some one suggesting a particular translation without good reason means that they consider the other translations inferior.

That in itself speaks badly for an alleged book claimed to be the clear word of a God when obviously it isn't and the messages can not be translated clearly and without division as to which version is better than another?

The various bible versions suffer the same flaw and the supposed christian God IS the author of mass confusion but claims it isn't? (cf. 1 Cor. 14:33) KJV story book.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

The Mormons also ask similar questions. e.g. IF you really read the Book of Mormon then you would just know in your heart that the BoM is Gods Word.

So called christians make the same claim about their bible.

So IF you don't believe their book is ' the one true book ' then the reasons are endless e.g. You didn't read them properly. You didn't read them with the right attitude. Your Faith is weak. Your heart wasn't focused on really listening to it? etc. etc.

No, actually all I wanted for you, is to read it in order to make your refutations based on it. Thats way we can have a constructive conversation inshallah, thats all

So how did you know that your book was ' the only right book ' and your evidence to support you please? e.g. You heard voices telling you it was? You got a warm and fuzzy feeling when you read it? You won Lotto the next day after reading it or some other good fortune / other reasons?

I read it and understood it

Some one suggesting a particular translation without good reason means that they consider the other translations inferior.

That in itself speaks badly for an alleged book claimed to be the clear word of a God when obviously it isn't and the messages can not be translated clearly and without division as to which version is better than another?

I think you misunderstood me, Quran in arabic is word of God; translations are men made thats why you find translations better than others, while you find one and only version of Quran in arabic.
Hope it make sense for you

As for your other questions, than if you have read my introduction post, you would know that almost all my ressources to bring you a proof are either in arabic or in french, so I guess I'l have to let you the duty to find out that by yourself, what do you say ? Or maybe some other english muslim who you havent insulted or belitteled yet , can come and help you with this Inshallah

Best regards

PS: You may think that Im runnign away from the debate because you brought unshakable arguments, but I assure you that I wish I was an english Master girl, and had a big huge ressource for all hadeeths and scholar opinions in english ; but Im working on that

 

[Composer]

No, actually all I wanted for you, is to read it in order to make your refutations based on it. Thats way we can have a constructive conversation inshallah, thats all

Your problem remains that like the christian bible and the Mormons Book of Mormon and the Qu'ran they are ALL claiming to be a ' God's Word '

You would FIRST need to demonstrate why your book is legitimate and theirs are not?

I read it and understood it

People read Harry potter and understand it. People read the Mormon BoM and claim to understand that etc. etc.

At the end of the day you ALL believe what suits you.

I think you misunderstood me, Quran in arabic is word of God; translations are men made thats why you find translations better than others, while you find one and only version of Quran in arabic.

So the greatest scholar in the universe (God) allegedly can't convey its Word perfectly except in Arabic?

Hope it make sense for you

Nope!

As for your other questions, than if you have read my introduction post, you would know that almost all my ressources to bring you a proof are either in arabic or in french, so I guess I'l have to let you the duty to find out that by yourself, what do you say ? Or maybe some other english muslim who you havent insulted or belitteled yet , can come and help you with this Inshallah

How quaint and convenient for you that you corrupt the Truth I bring as insults.

You like all other religious groups pushing your various ' God books ' FIRST need to legitimately demonstrate that it is?

You can't even be honest enough to say what group Mahomet would belong to today and why the others he would reject, so you better start there before trying to compile more man made propaganda for your various causes be they, e.g. Christian, Mormon or Islamic?

Best regards

PS: You may think that Im runnign away from the debate because you brought unshakable arguments, but I assure you that I wish I was an english Master girl, and had a big huge ressource for all hadeeths and scholar opinions in english ; but Im working on that

Yes it's a pity your God made it so difficult for you. Didn't it realise not every one speaks Arabic?

IF I were God and wanted to share my Words with the entire world, I would have made sure my Words were recorded in every language by myself as God and NOT leave it to fallible men to try to figure my words out in other languages, so as not to cause the massive confusion and weaknesses of translations that apparently abound still.

Like all groups referring to their various alleged holy books, you ALL FIRST need to legitimately demonstrate that they are ' what you claim them to be? '.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Like all groups referring to their various alleged holy books, you ALL FIRST need to legitimately demonstrate that they are ' what you claim them to be? '.

My respected friend composer,

Im sorry but I have to tell you that I am not able to debate with you, until you atleast do an effort to understand. In fact, its not that I have problems debating in english, its just that I had bad experiences with people not even willing to listen and I had to scream the truth to them, but I stopped doing that for a long time ago.
So, Inshallah as soon as I see a positive attitude when you're showing me that you really want to understand and listen then Inshallah I'll be available.

Thanks a lot for your time btw

Best regards

 

[Composer]

My respected friend composer,

Im sorry but I have to tell you that I am not able to debate with you, until you atleast do an effort to understand. In fact, its not that I have problems debating in english, its just that I had bad experiences with people not even willing to listen and I had to scream the truth to them, but I stopped doing that for a long time ago.
So, Inshallah as soon as I see a positive attitude when you're showing me that you really want to understand and listen then Inshallah I'll be available.

Thanks a lot for your time btw

Best regards

Your problem is that so far you DO NOT have the Truth.

Until such time as you legitimately demonstrate your Qu'ran is a literal God's Words then you, like ALL the other religions making similar claims about their books (BoM, Bible etc.) in reality have NOTHING of value except your various ' empty say so's '.

It is I that has the Truth but you are currently deaf to it!

 

[jtartar]

1+1+1=1? or 1+1+1=3 or 1+1+1= something else?

There is NOTHING in the Holy Scriptures that even remotely hints of a TRINITY. This concept was started by men and is blasphemy to God and Jesus. 2Tim 3:16,17, Mark 7:6-9,13, Ps 146:3,4.
It is very interesting to learn what God,Himself said, God said that Jesus is His son, and that we should LISTEN TO HIM!!!Mark 9:7. Jesus said that He lives because of the Father, John 6:57. Jesus said that God created him, Rev 3:14, that God is his Father and our Father, John 20:17, that God is greater than he is, John 14:28. Jesus said their is only one true God, that God sent him into the world, John 17:3. Jesus said that he had made his Father's name known, John 17:6,26.
Jesus daid there were some things that he did not know, only the Father knows,Matt 24:36, and that some thing only the Father controlled, Matt 20:23.
I could go on and on about what other Bible writers said about this, but Jesus' words should suffice, to any that claims to be a Christian.
While Jesus was on earth God spoke to him from heaven,three times, Matt 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:28.

 

[emiliano]

There is NOTHING in the Holy Scriptures that even remotely hints of a TRINITY. This concept was started by men and is blasphemy to God and Jesus. 2Tim 3:16,17, Mark 7:6-9,13, Ps 146:3,4.
It is very interesting to learn what God,Himself said, God said that Jesus is His son, and that we should LISTEN TO HIM!!!Mark 9:7. Jesus said that He lives because of the Father, John 6:57. Jesus said that God created him, Rev 3:14, that God is his Father and our Father, John 20:17, that God is greater than he is, John 14:28. Jesus said their is only one true God, that God sent him into the world, John 17:3. Jesus said that he had made his Father's name known, John 17:6,26.
Jesus daid there were some things that he did not know, only the Father knows,Matt 24:36, and that some thing only the Father controlled, Matt 20:23.
I could go on and on about what other Bible writers said about this, but Jesus' words should suffice, to any that claims to be a Christian.
While Jesus was on earth God spoke to him from heaven,three times, Matt 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:28.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.​

Gen 1:2
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] [fn] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

​

And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Then God said (the word that is Jesus the son)

Jhn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth​

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The Trinity isn't Biblical, and sorry to tell the guy above me, but John 1:1 is saying something entirely different. If you read on it says: No man has seen God at anytime, so it has to mean that when the word became flesh- as Jesus, it actually means God created Jesus with a word. Otherwise the chapter makes no sense, it contradicts itself.

 

[Muffled]

what problem do you think they have? if u have already said it then please post the meaage number and have my appology

All have a previous mindset that keeps them from seeing the truth.

 

[Muffled]

The truth that you , super rational scientific logical atheists holded for millions of years while no one listened to you.

Please see my introduction post on the "introduce yourself" section, and see what i think of arrogant atheists who think they hold the keys to all the knowledge on this earth.

Best regards

Sallam Aleikam.

Jesus is the Truth. I suppose if you construe a Christian as an atheist it is because you had a previous mindset that kept you from seeing that.

 

[Muffled]

I tend to view the Trinity as being 1 = 1 = 1, not as three distinct entities, but rather, different faces of the same being.
Heck, even Islam has their version of the Trinity in Allah, Muhammad and the Qur'an. You cannot really separate one from the other.

We could play the Sesame Street game of "Two of these things belong together."

Actually The Scripture of the Qu'ran probably could not be considered God, so it doesn't fit in that set. However You could make a case for Allah, Mohammed and the Qu'ran having God's word in common. A Christian trinity of that type would be Jehovah, Jesus and the Bible.

 

[Walkntune]

Originally posted by Yosef1986
The Trinity isn't Biblical, and sorry to tell the guy above me, but John 1:1 is saying something entirely different. If you read on it says: No man has seen God at anytime, so it has to mean that when the word became flesh- as Jesus, it actually means God created Jesus with a word. Otherwise the chapter makes no sense, it contradicts itself.

How would you interpret this scripture?
Philippians 2
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Everyone knows the KJV translates Phillippians 2 wrong. Most translations I've ever read say he didn't hold equality with God something to be grasped, or otherwise we could say- something within his reach, but took on the station of a servant. That isn't saying he's god either.