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The Trouble with Atheism.....

tas8831

Well-Known Member
That argument is getting old.....like that other old chestnut...."you don't understand evolution"....implying that if we just "knew" about evolution or atheism, we would all be instantly converted.....its actually what I do know about evolution and atheism that keeps me where I chose to go over 50 years ago. You are free to keep your belief system and I will keep mine.

And yet... it is TRUE that you do not understand evolution. Contrary to your implied decades of study, your actual posts on here prove it. You have complained about 'scientific' and 'medical' "jargon" over 100 times. I'd think that if you understood as much as you think you do, the "jargon" would not be a such a stumbling block for you.
So a flawed scientific method is better than belief in God? How?
For one, there is at least some ( a lot, actually) evidence, for the other, there are anecdotes, ancient tall tales, and corny stories.
The choice is simple for those not brainwashed into various religious cults since they were children (or after horrific drug experiences, or severe personal trauma).
 
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tas8831

Well-Known Member
]Just one element that makes up a huge part of this earth is the miracle called water......

One of the most abundant compounds in the universe, such a "miracle."
Yes, you started a rather comical thread on just that a few years ago, and learned nothing from it.

In addition to the ... "innocence" of your thread's premise, I also enjoyed seeing the requisite 'big medicine' basking, wondering why there is no cure by now.... never mentioned why Jehovah sees fit to let it rage through His special creations without an end in sight...


All the proof we need is right under our noses.....some just choose not to see it.

Its all about our own choice to believe whatever appeals to our heart. The spiritually minded ones among us will tend to clearly see God's hand in creation.....
Aren't you just so special, with your jargon-less pap...
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
The biggest mistake he makes is suggesting Hitler and the Nazis were atheist's they were not and most Nazis were Christians.
wehrmacht-heer-gott-mit-uns-aluminum-buckle--114084.JPG
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Guess the author:

"They have had a cure for cancer for decades but it is out of the reach of most people thanks to pressure from the pharmaceutical industry."
 

Yazata

Active Member
I have a direct question for you.

What is your definition of atheism?

I'd say that atheism typically consists of agreement with at least these two positions --

1. 'God' (at least as imagined in the 'Abrahamic' traditions that atheists typically seem to presuppose) does not exist. In other words, atheism is the belief that the proposition 'God exists' is false.

and

2. 'Religion' (typically imagined as if the paradigm of all religiosity is Biblical-literalist Protestant Christianity) is wrong in a moral sense as well as a cognitive sense. There's typically the idea that 'religion' has been a social evil throughout history and that the elimination of religion today would be a social good.

There is oftentimes (but not always) --

3. A belief in metaphysical naturalism. The idea that reality is coextensive with the world of natural science and that the conceptual inventory of fundamental physics is all that does or can exist.

4. An association of atheism with scientism, often with a vague idea that science is smart, and since atheism champions science, atheism must be smart too. There's often an assumption of intellectual superiority that many atheists wear on their sleeves. They perceive themselves as champions of reason and often seem to assume that they reason far better than whoever they choose as their opponents.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I see, that is why it did not work, right?

Ciao

- viole
uh, yeah.
Although there could be many reasons a prayer wouldn’t be answered — including a person’s attitude, or their disbelief (Hebrews 11:6, “... anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.“) — but it will never work if you’re addressing the wrong person.

You don’t get that? You’re not the only one. To me, that’s amazing....

If you wanted to call President Biden, you’d need the right number.... and know the correct procedure. Right?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
With only one of them being by far the simplest.

Ciao

- viole
If that were true, then none would be inexplicably answered. But I myself have had many prayers answered. Some in very unique ways. So I know from my own experience that what you’re suggesting is not correct.

Just curious, Viole... this isn’t about prayer per se.... as an atheist, what is your explanation for the numerous RF members on here who have encounters and two-way conversations w/ their ‘spirit guides’, or their gods, or some other invisible entity?
Do you think they’re lying, or on drugs, or mentally deficient in some way? All of them?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Just curious, Viole... this isn’t about prayer per se.... as an atheist, what is your explanation for the numerous RF members on here who have encounters and two-way conversations w/ their ‘spirit guides’, or their gods, or some other invisible entity?
Do you think they’re lying, or on drugs, or mentally deficient in some way? All of them?
I think they delude themselves. And you, as a Christian, must admit that this form of delusion is possible.
For instance, when someone claims to have seen, or had a two way spiritual conversation with Ganesh, the elephant God, what would you think of that?

And, if you really have two-ways conversation with the creator of the Universe, what do you guys talk about with Him? Baseball? I ask because you seem to disagree on basically everything. Even the most basic stuff. Just to mention a few:

- Evolution/no evolution
- Death penalty/no death penalty
- Infinite torment/no infinite torment
- 6000 years/14 billions years
- gay marriage/no gay marriage
- son of God/not Son of God
etc. etc.

Ciao

- viole
 

Justanatheist

Well-Known Member
I think they delude themselves. And you, as a Christian, must admit that this form of delusion is possible.
For instance, when someone claims to have seen, or had a two way spiritual conversation with Ganesh, the elephant God, what would you think of that?

And, if you really have two-ways conversation with the creator of the Universe, what do you guys talk about with Him? Baseball? I ask because you seem to disagree on basically everything. Even the most basic stuff. Just to mention a few:

- Evolution/no evolution
- Death penalty/no death penalty
- Infinite torment/no infinite torment
- 6000 years/14 billions years
- gay marriage/no gay marriage
- son of God/not Son of God
etc. etc.

Ciao

- viole
Ever noticed how gods always talk about little things, now if a god had spoke to one of these people and given them a covid vaccine twelve months ago that would of been impressive. Instead god sorted out little Johnny's ear ache, aunty mauds rheumatism and made sure Italy won the Euros!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You misunderstand scientific method.
I have investigated the scientific method.....what is not to understand? They have evidence that requires investigation; they form a hypothesis, and then go about trying to verify it. But if their overriding premise is skewed towards a certain result, then that is what they will deduce.....their minds will be led there and imagination will fill in the blanks. I was astounded at how many ‘assumptions’ were passed off as ‘fact’.....and how many 'suggestions' sounded like substantiated conclusions based on facts......but there were no facts.....just supposition that sounded plausible.

Preconceptions are irrelevant. Demonstration is everything.
Preconceptions dictate everything. Evolution of the ‘macro’ kind is THE preconception, even though science cannot prove that it ever happened. Interpretation of evidence will always fall into line with that premise.....and will fall within those set parameters. No scientist will dare to argue outside of it.

Not if they did it for good reason. They'd get a Nobel Prize instead. But fundamentalism got its modern impetus from Whitcomb and Morris's The Genesis Flood (1961) and in the intervening sixty years fundamentalism hasn't put even one teensy weensy scientific scratch on the (modern) theory of evolution.
A Nobel Prize for shooting their cash cow? Are you serious? o_O This issue isn’t about religion verses science.....this is about truth verses fiction.

If you have issues with “fundie” YEC nonsense, then I couldn’t agree more......but IMO, neither side has the truth about how life began or how the myriad varieties of life appeared (often suddenly) over time......and none are willing to budge on their own unsubstantiated position. This creates a divide and a lot of ill feeling on both sides....but the truth should not do that..... it means a yielding for both parties......however, it seems neither will budge.

Both require the same amount of ‘faith and trust’ to cling to their “beliefs”. Killing God has become a virtual blood sport. But the immortal Creator cannot be killed, and no one can deny that unlike the animal creation, we humans express a need for spirituality......our history confirms that, and science cannot explain why humans alone need to worship.....something. They can speculate, but they simply don’t know. We humans behave in very predictable ways, and it’s not hard to see “worship” behavior expressed in human activities...even non-religious ones.

Why is that the case, do you think?
Why? Because both sides in this story haven’t really evaluated the evidence without their own pre-conceived ideas getting in the way. I believe that there is middle ground that allows an accurate translation of the Bible, and true science to agree.

If the Creator is the greatest scientist in existence, then his existence is confirmed by his creation.....giving it a different explanation will not alter the truth. Such astonishing complexity as observed in nature, cannot come about by blind chance. It is too well planned for that. Planning requires forethought, and forethought requires intelligence....how is that not a logical deduction?
Intelligent design and purposeful direction are seen everywhere.

If that line of reasoning is valid, it leads you straight to the question, What real thing does the word "God" intend to denote, and how did that thing come into being?
Just as there are things that science cannot explain, no human can explain the existence of the Creator....but we get to know a lot about him by what he has put in place.....the laws that govern our universe, did not come out of thin air. The complex systems that operate on earth, demonstrate intelligent planning, or no life would survive. How many fortunate flukes can you have before you run out of probability? :shrug:

And then we can add, We don't know what happened before the Big Bang, but reasoned enquiry is the only procedure whose participants are actually trying to find out.
No matter how sophisticated their apparatus becomes, no mere mortal will duplicate the force or power behind creation. The Big Bang is beyond the scope of any human to even imagine. Try to contemplate the magnitude of the something the size of the universe and then compare that to the smallest observable life form on earth....it is staggering. Creation needed a Creator, more powerful that the sum of its parts.

So evolution is God?
If God is a myth, then evolution is also a myth. It is “believed” by many people....but there is no way to prove that it ever happened.
I can’t prove that God exists, but I have reason to believe in his existence, using the same evidence that science uses to deny him. Its all in how you view these things...what you want to believe....or disbelieve.

That would explain the biology but the physics would have quite a few questions left over,
Then perhaps the scientists need to learn what the Creator knows.....by comparison, they are not even out of their infancy yet. They are like ants on a railway track looking at the looming image of an approaching locomotive, assuring each other that it doesn’t really exist.......do the ants know that the railway track they are standing on was built for a purpose? Will denying the existence of the locomotive soften the impact at all?

Nature is reality, the world external to the self which we know about through our senses.
Nature is a product.....we live and experience its reality. Does no one ever ask where we got our incredible senses in order to experience this reality in so many ways? How many amazing systems are needed to feed information through our senses to our main control centre......that extraordinary biological computer in our cranium that dictates how we respond to external stimuli. Just accidental?

Suggesting that the complexity of the workings of the human body, or the physiology of the myriad other creatures with whom we share this unique planet (let alone the range of complexity of systems that governs the earth itself and indeed the whole universe) can come about by the blind forces of “nature”....doesn't it have to dawn on even the most intelligent among us that "accidents" like these can't keep happening.....like winning the lottery a thousand times in a row......but then, don’t we have to wonder if that level of intelligence might lead them to make decisions out of ego, rather than admitting an inconvenient truth?

Jesus himself said that God has “hidden” his truth from “the wise and intellectual ones and revealed it to young children”.....what a blow to their ego, to be outsmarted by uneducated "children". (Luke 10:21) Who knew that being intellectual could be a handicap?
 

Justanatheist

Well-Known Member
Jesus himself said that God has “hidden” his truth from “the wise and intellectual ones and revealed it to young children”.....what a blow to their ego, to be outsmarted by uneducated "children". (Luke 10:21) Who knew that being intellectual could be a handicap?

Did Jesus say that or did someone say Jesus said that, because if you can point to one single word that Jesus wrote I will be astounded.

So lets put the truth since you like it so.

Someone (no one knows who) who had never met Jesus wrote 50 years later that Jesus himself said that God has “hidden” his truth from “the wise and intellectual ones and revealed it to young children”

Lets stay honest.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have investigated the scientific method.....what is not to understand? They have evidence that requires investigation; they form a hypothesis, and then go about trying to verify it. But if their overriding premise is skewed towards a certain result, then that is what they will deduce
That is far from my understanding of the situation. Please provide some nice clear representative examples, and some further evidence that they're typical.
I was astounded at how many ‘assumptions’ were passed off as ‘fact’.....and how many 'suggestions' sounded like substantiated conclusions based on facts......but there were no facts.....just supposition that sounded plausible.
Then please ensure your examples demonstrate your claim.
A Nobel Prize for shooting their cash cow? Are you serious? o_O This issue isn’t about religion verses science.....this is about truth verses fiction.
Of course I'm serious. The pioneer of a new insight may be met with skepticism, but if the evidence stacks up, that insight will become the norm. In 1972, Edgridge and Gould proposed punctuated equilibrium; they met with skepticism and criticism and perhaps they overstated their case but they weren't wrong.
IMO, neither side has the truth about how life began or how the myriad varieties of life appeared (often suddenly) over time...
One side has evidence. The other has one of the world's many creation myths. One side will go where the evidence leads. The other side will rush to protect the tale.
their own unsubstantiated position.
Are you familiar with the evidence for evolution? Are you roughly up to date with where the theory is at?
the truth should not do that..... it means a yielding for both parties......however, it seems neither will budge.
Science will budge. All you need is what no one's actually got, relevant evidence ─ let alone any credible alternative explanation. As I said, the enemies of evolution have had 60 years to put up or shut up, and they've done neither.
Both require the same amount of ‘faith and trust’ to cling to their “beliefs”.
The same faith and trust you'd need to think magic exists and Harry Potter is real and creates new species with a thrus of his wand and a cry of novaspecifacio!
Killing God has become a virtual blood sport. But the immortal Creator cannot be killed
If [he] were real [he] could be destroyed. But [he]'s a work of imagination, so the technique is different ─ lose your followers, lose your god status. Where are Ea and Belet-ili now, who were gods a thousand years before Yahweh came on the scene?
unlike the animal creation, we humans express a need for spirituality...
If by 'spirituality' you mean, belief in the supernatural, the modern western history of religion is retreat before science, story replaced with better understanding.
If the Creator is the greatest scientist in existence, then his existence is confirmed by his creation...
How? How does the existence of the universe imply the necessity for a real sentient creator? What quality would a sentient creator need to have to qualify as a god? Why would a sentient creator give a plugged nickel for what the presently dominant species on one of septillions of planets gets up to?
Intelligent design and purposeful direction are seen everywhere
Intelligent Design had its day in court at the Dover trial 2005 and crashed and burnt. Behe, leading proponent of ID, acknowledged that his ideas didn't take exaptation into account; he's had two decades since he said that ─ and it's been wall-to-wall silence.
no human can explain the existence of the Creator
No more they can explain the existence of Superman ─ or of course Harry.
The Big Bang is beyond the scope of any human to even imagine.
It was indeed a BIG bang, but the science guys are working on it. Unlike the religious folk.
If God is a myth, then evolution is also a myth. It is “believed” by many people....but there is no way to prove that it ever happened.
Ah, the God of the Gaps hoping we never crack abiogenesis because then there'll be no hole for [him] to hide in! Do you keep yourself up to date with abiogenesis research? Because you have nothing to lose, and a lot of understanding to gain if you do.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Ever noticed how gods always talk about little things, now if a god had spoke to one of these people and given them a covid vaccine twelve months ago that would of been impressive. Instead god sorted out little Johnny's ear ache, aunty mauds rheumatism and made sure Italy won the Euros!
I remember my mom praying for a good parking spot one time, and when she found one she turned to me and said "See? God answers prayers!" I immediately responded, "Why don't you pray for something useful then? Why not for and end to world hunger or something?" Her answer was bizarre...."We're not to test God with things like that"

All I could do was shake my head and laugh.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Sorry I’m sooo late to reply, I’ve had some responsibilities to deal with.

I think they delude themselves.
All of them? Every single one? There are a lot of rational people just on this forum alone, who’ve had such experiences.
Granted, some for sure... and of those who make money off of it, most are probably scammers, i.e., deluding others; but all? There are simply too many experiences of people who’ve received responses! And quite a few were unpleasant. I.e., not wanted.


And you, as a Christian, must admit that this form of delusion is possible.
Yes, you’re right. But why do you say, “As a Christian” I must admit that?
For instance, when someone claims to have seen, or had a two way spiritual conversation with Ganesh, the elephant God, what would you think of that?

Well, I’m glad you asked!
First, I would wonder if they were on some kind of medication. (That really would be my first thought.) But if after further examination I found out they weren’t under any physically-induced mental influence, imbalance, or other explainable stimuli, then I’d think they were being influenced by Jehovah’s arch-enemy, just like Eve was.

Deluded, yes....but not by themselves; rather, by forces of higher intelligence, and way more craftier!

Just consider the concept of the afterlife. It is everywhere! (Although the Bible teaches the Resurrection: that the dead will come to life at a future time. Currently, the dead “know nothing” {Ecclesiastes 9:5}; they are “sleeping.” {John 11:11-14} ) Almost every religion teaches ‘the dead are alive in another realm.’ Now, you might say “this is what people want to believe.” But not so with cultures that worship their “ancestors” .... these people actually fear their “ancestors”! Why? Why is fear the most common emotion associated w/ ancestor worship? Why isn’t love the main emotion in such worship? I mean, they think they’re honoring their ‘grandparents’..... I wouldn’t be afraid of mine! They loved me!

So, to me, the answer is obvious & based on Scripture: the dead loved ones are being impersonated by wicked imposters, wanting to mislead others. (Revelation 12:9)

More on these entities, later.

And, if you really have two-ways conversation with the creator of the Universe, what do you guys talk about with Him? Baseball?
No, we don’t have nor expect two-way conversations with our Creator. Jehovah doesn’t work that way anymore. Since we discern that is the case, we’d think any dialogue w/ an entity, if genuine, would be from Jehovah God’s Enemy.

Question: From the Bible’s standpoint, who is controlling the world? Does the Bible say God? Or someone else?

Take care.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Again I’ve been busy; sorry for not replying earlier....
Well, if it is no God, what is He waiting for?

Ciao

- viole
First off, let me answer the question of who the Bible says is controlling the world.... 1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one.
So your follow-up question is a valid one, viole.
Jehovah is waiting for the issues raised in Genesis 3, to finally get settled ....God’s sovereignty over mankind was challenged. The best course was to allow mankind to be independent from God, to govern themselves w/o Him stepping in.
The results have revealed that humans ruling themselves is a disaster! For the most part, they have given in to their more shameful, baser instincts — their selfish and greedy desires — to the detriment of those who live under their rule. - Ecclesiastes 8:9 This pervasive attitude has allowed Satan the opportunity to gain more control over men’s affairs.

So IMO, this explains perfectly why this entire world is so messed up. Almost everyone wants peace, but it seems they (governments, kingdoms, etc.) just can't reach any mutual agreement.... it’s always out of reach. And people’s attitudes are getting worse!

I hope you have a good day.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Again I’ve been busy; sorry for not replying earlier.... First off, let me answer the question of who the Bible says is controlling the world.... 1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one.
So your follow-up question is a valid one, viole.
Jehovah is waiting for the issues raised in Genesis 3, to finally get settled ....God’s sovereignty over mankind was challenged. The best course was to allow mankind to be independent from God, to govern themselves w/o Him stepping in.
The results have revealed that humans ruling themselves is a disaster! For the most part, they have given in to their more shameful, baser instincts — their selfish and greedy desires — to the detriment of those who live under their rule. - Ecclesiastes 8:9 This pervasive attitude has allowed Satan the opportunity to gain more control over men’s affairs.

So IMO, this explains perfectly why this entire world is so messed up. Almost everyone wants peace, but it seems they (governments, kingdoms, etc.) just can't reach any mutual agreement.... it’s always out of reach. And people’s attitudes are getting worse!

I hope you have a good day.
How do we know the Bible is right about this?
 
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