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The True and Most Profound Reason I believe You're a Party-Pooper Revealed at Last!

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I think it's a ;pretty safe bet that just about every reasonably well-informed person on this planet today has heard some variation or another of the thesis that the majority of voters in any democracy are typically so stupid and/or poorly informed that the general "will of the people" is of dubious value.

To me, that argument, when more fully expressed, usually suffers from the naive belief that some other form of selecting leaders is not just as often bad in practice for most people as is a majority vote. I mean, you might at least sometimes get more competent leaders that way,. but those leaders tend to be much more obligated to consider the will of the few people who selected them than they are obligated to consider the will of majority of the people.

For instance, who can reasonably believe that a Stalin pays attention to a broader constituency than a Bush, an Obama, or even a Trump?

Of course, the notion that the majority should rule is in any significant way actually better than any other system of selecting leaders is so heavily called into question by the sciences that you would still quite obviously need to be an all-out, full throttle ahead, no brakes of any kind, raving imbecile to dispute it.

I, of course, am precisely that imbecile.

Or, if you absolutely insist I must be honest here (and therefore insist I have so much less fun, you insufferable Puritan party-pooper), I am of the tentatively held opinion that majority rule might be meaningfully asserted in a certain qualified way as perhaps the better system.

Bummer. So boring!

Anyway, maybe the best path to explaining my reasoning is to start with W. Edwards Deming's habit of introducing his graduate level courses in statistics with a simple experiment. Deming was a once famous quality control expert and management consultant with a background in mathematical physics. He would perform the same experiment on the first day of every graduate course he taught, and with (according to him) no significant variation in the results.

On a table in front of the students, where everyone was sure to get a good look at it, Deming would place a large glass jar filled with black and white marbles of equal size. He would then ask the students to carefully study the jar for a few minutes, after which he would have them write down their most confident guesses about how many marbles were in the jar (of both colors combined), and then submit those guesses to him.

Now, Deming claimed something all of us might expect: The guesses were more or less "all over the board". But the really fascinating part came next. He would then have a couple student volunteers calculate the average number of marbles, based on all of the individual guesses. The "arithmetic mean", if you wish to be more precise.

According to Deming, it never once failed that the average was within 5% of the actual number of marbles.

To emphasize, the group as a whole, typically about 30 or so students, was always more accurate as a group than all but a few of the students were as individuals.

Now, I might risk confusing you when I say that I don't think the experiment by itself means much to whether or not democracies are actually actually better ways to select leaders than other systems of government. I suppose I could grandly argue, if I wanted to, that the experiment somehow demonstrates that people in concert are better judges of reality than most individuals are alone. But though Deming himself understood that to be a logical implication of his experiments, if given a certain set of circumstances, I do not buy that democratic elections necessarily approach those circumstances. In current practice, they simply don't.

So what's the take-away here?

I would suggest at least two things. First, that the experiment can be lumped in with various lines of evidence that taken together might strongly lead us to conclude it is possible for groups to cancel out the effects of human and individual biases and errors in reasoning and judgement.

Of course, the most notable example of that effect is, not Deming's experiment, but the success of the sciences in discovering reliably predictable facts. That is, an important -- or perhaps even key -- part of the remarkable success of the sciences lies in the checks that peer-review gives to human and individual biases and errors in reasoning and judgement.

Now, the second take-away might be a little more difficult to see the full value of. It's this: A key condition of Deming's experiment is that everyone gets a clear and "honest" look at the jar before guessing anything. While I think that's easily seen as important, it might not be as easily seen just how important it is. In my opinion, it's actually vital. I do not believe the group average would consistently come within 5% of the actual number of marbles if that condition were much changed by partial or inherently misleading views of the jar.

So would those two take-aways, even if both were perfectly true, have much practical relevance to democracy?

I think we could easily go off-base here if we are not very careful in drawing any conclusions, even tentatively held conclusions. But I believe this much, at least, is safe to say: The most crucial point of those two facts is most likely something along these lines: The accuracy of the information available to an electorate cannot be over-valued, and even conversely: the dangers of too little, misleading, or false information are great enough to warrant all or any ways of ameliorating those dangers that do not in themselves pose a greater risk to democracy than the actual dangers themselves.

In sum, I think democracies should deploy and institutionalize every reasonably safe means of increasing the accuracy of information presented to the electorate, and they should also deploy and institutionalize every reasonably safe means of reducing the inaccuracy of information presented to the electorate.

In other words, I am assuming here than even an "imperfect" or merely partial increase in the accuracy of information, or an imperfect or merely partial decrease in the inaccuracy of information would still be worth going for it.

Can anyone say that their own or other democracies have done all they reasonably can do to realize either or both of those two goals?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I think it's a ;pretty safe bet that just about every reasonably well-informed person on this planet today has heard some variation or another of the thesis that the majority of voters in any democracy are typically so stupid and/or poorly informed that the general "will of the people" is of dubious value.

To me, that argument, when more fully expressed, usually suffers from the naive belief that some other form of selecting leaders is not just as often bad in practice for most people as is a majority vote. I mean, you might at least sometimes get more competent leaders that way,. but those leaders tend to be much more obligated to consider the will of the few people who selected them than they are obligated to consider the will of majority of the people.

My point is not necessarily that the masses are stupid. More that we are easily manipulated.

How about as part of the experiment the student were given a video to watch or paper to read that told them how to calculate the quantities of marbles, which was completely incorrect by the way. Thus ensuring those accepting the authority of the video always came up with the wrong answer. You could even cause them to estimate too high or too low.

Politicians spend millions of dollars I suspect on consultants to provide just the right message to the volters to get them elected.

If you got smart people, enough money the right media sources behind you, it's not terribly hard to sway the masses. That doesn't mean they are dumb, it's just human nature.

I'm thinking more a non-elected board of competent, credentialed experts to run things.

Anyone could apply for a position on one of these boards. They could be tested and promoted based on proving themselves the better candidate.

The lessor capable candidates could fill in minor governmental roles. Maybe every two years people would have to re-qualify.

What Democracy does at best is give us an average candidate. So we end up with governments constantly outfoxed by businesses/company CEO's who got there on merit.
 
In other words, I am assuming here than even an "imperfect" or merely partial increase in the accuracy of information, or an imperfect or merely partial decrease in the inaccuracy of information would still be worth going for it.

Can anyone say that their own or other democracies have done all they reasonably can do to realize either or both of those two goals?

We could get not just a minor increase in accuracy, but a massive one all while saving money and effort with my 2 favourite political solutions: reduction of scale/decentralisation and sortition..

The problem is being defined as "How do we make mass elections more like the experiment?", but a better question is "How do we make representative government more like the experiment?"

Scale is integral to complexity. Building a thousand 10 piece jigsaws is far easier than building one 10,000 piece jigsaw.

Problem 1: Provide more accurate information to millions of people while others work equally hard to provide them with distorted information (Not to mention the average person won't expend much effort to be informed and is much more likely to be swayed by trivialities and emotions.

Problem 2: Provide a small number of highly motivated people with highly accurate information in a more controlled environment.

P1 might be intractable, p2 is pretty simple.

Instead of informing the masses so that they can better choose a leader to make decisions on their behalf, choose a random selection of the masses who can become informed in far greater detail to make the decisions themselves.

Instead of electing officials, you choose them randomly from all qualified members of the population. Here you have your group of normal people who can make better decisions than individuals. The average person in this situation would expend a lot of effort to be informed and would have access to huge amounts of neutral information.

Not only this but you have natural diversity, equal representation and varied experiences among the decision makers.

Problem solved :)

(Not to mention minimising the effects of entrenched elites and lobbyists, restoring faith in politics, getting rid of endless election cycles, etc, etc.)
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The fundamental flaw in the democracy argument is that information is valuable. The level people go to to reject facts over emotional bias and consequently confirmation bias is very large. I'm not arguing that facts don't count, but they count a lot less than one would hope.

That written, as things stand now, the ability to vote for one's government in a free choice is head and shoulders above the other choices.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Can anyone say that their own or other democracies have done all they reasonably can do to realize either or both of those two goals?
In the USA, your goal of providing the public with accurate information, usually too little and too late, has relied on whistle blowers like Daniel Ellsberg who risked imprisonment for national security violations to bring us the truth about the war in Vietnam.

Some secrets must be kept in the interest of national security, but that same security system allows those who govern to lie to us.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
...businesses/company CEO's who got there on merit.

I realize the point of your post is not the notion that CEOs achieve their positions on the basis of merit, but I am genuinely curious: How much do you think merit has to do with it, compared to other factors?

So far as I've seen and even heard from mostly senior executives, and two or three CEOs, merit (i.e. sustained hard work and consistently smart application of their skills) was one of a handful of important causes of their success, most frequently along with such things as good connections, government support in gaining an education, and even sheer good luck. One guy has even repeatedly told me now and then over the years that, while merit was crucial to his success, it was so "outnumbered" by all the other important factors he could reasonably toss into the mix, that it wasn't even a majority factor -- none the factors were actually a majority factors all by themselves.

Another guy, a guy who became a millionaire in his twenties -- I think he was 28, then -- has told me than in some real way, he could trace all of his later successes back to one fateful project he cooked up for himself when he was but entry level management. Namely, he had the foresight and skill to create for the corporation's new-fangled personal computers a revolutionary program, basically a spreadsheet -- they had until then been doing all their accounting by hand. After that, he still worked his tail off, but things began "to happen", luck just came his way by the bucket load.
 
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