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The Tyre prophecy

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
The Tyre prophecy is one of the most debated prophecies in the Bible, but I do not know why since nothing about it indicates that it was divinely inspired. Since all kingdoms have eventually fallen, there was nothing unusual about Tyre falling.

Consider the following:

Bible prophecies and myth | Digital Bits Skeptic

R.C. Symes said:
One of the most controversial prophecies of the Old Testament is the prophet Ezekiel’s prediction made sometime between 592-570 B.C.E. that the ancient Phoenician city of Tyre would be utterly destroyed and never be rebuilt. The Tyrians had angered God by their failure to help Judah against the Chaldeans (Babylonians) who had conquered Jerusalem; therefore they were to be punished. Tyre was a prosperous trading city on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea in what is now modern day Lebanon. It consisted of an island fortress city with two harbours and nearby suburbs on the mainland.

Ezekiel begins his prophecy in Chapter 26 with a general curse against Tyre outlining her destruction (26:1-6). According to Ezekiel, many nations will rise up against Tyre, her walls will be torn down and God will scrape the soil off her island and make her like a gleaming rock where fishermen spread their nets. Ezekiel then becomes more specific when he claims that God told him that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon and his army will bring all this to pass by laying siege to the city, killing its inhabitants, plundering it and laying it waste (26:7-13). He then repeats that God will make the ruined Tyre only a gleaming rock where fishermen spread their nets. In addition, he prophesizes that Tyre will “never be rebuilt” (26:14) and “never again be inhabited or take your place in the land of the living” (26:20). In this part of the prophecy, Ezekiel drops the earlier reference to many nations attacking Tyre because this will not be necessary after Nebuchadrezzar’s triumph. He writes “I will bring you to a fearful end, and you shall be no more; men may look for you but will never find you again. This is the very word of the Lord God.” (26:21).

History records that Nebuchadrezzar did attack and destroy Tyre’s mainland suburbs, but could not destroy the island part of city, even after a thirteen year siege (586-573 B.C.E.). The outcome was that Tyre reached a compromise agreement with Nebuchadrezzar to pay tribute and accept Babylonian authority while Tyre resumed its trade and rebuilt its mainland parts. Despite the prophecy, historical records show that Tyre was rebuilt several times and that the city existed during the Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine periods and the centuries that followed, but in the end it did not achieve its former wealth and power. The New Testament even has numerous references to Tyre’s existence during the time of Jesus and Paul (e.g. Matthew 15:21, Acts 21:3). Modern day Tyre is built on and about the ruins of the ancient Phoenician city and its successors, and is currently the fourth largest city in Lebanon. So much for the prophecy that Nebuchadrezzar would utterly destroy Tyre and that it would never be rebuilt or inhabited again!

Some biblical apologists who believe that the Bible can never err, claim that although Nebuchadrezzar did not destroy all of Tyre, the prophecy was fulfilled almost two and a half centuries later when the Greek general, Alexander the Great, destroyed both the mainland and island parts of the city. However, the prophecy (which after all, looks into the future) does not say it would be Alexander who would finish the job, but that Tyre would be utterly destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar. Why would God deceive Ezekiel who thought he was talking about his times rather than two centuries later and an Alexander whom he knew nothing about? And what sense was there to use Alexander to kill the people of Tyre centuries later when those whom Ezekiel wanted punished for thwarting God were already long dead? Ezekiel was really talking about the Babylonians and Tyre, not the Greeks and Tyre.

Those who believe Alexander fulfilled Ezekiel’s prophecy also have to contend with a different prophecy about Tyre written by Isaiah over a hundred years earlier than Ezekiel. Isaiah prophesied that the Chaldeans would destroy Tyre which would remain desolate for 70 years then return to the Lord’s favour and prosper, giving her trading profits to the Jews (Isaiah 23:8-18). However, the Chaldeans did not destroy Tyre, nor did Alexander fulfill Isaiah’s prophecy either. According to the rule of Deuteronomy, both Ezekiel and Isaiah spoke presumptuously and should not be believed.

Other Old Testament prophecies are also suspect, but it only takes the failure of one to show that the “word of God” as related in the Bible is untrustworthy. God’s prophets were not infallible.

Obviously, it would be a simple matter for an omniscient God to inspire prophecies that are far better than any Bible prophecy is. For example, if the Bible contained fulfilled prophecies regarding when, and where some natural disasters would occur, month, day, and year, and made the predictions centuries in advance, that would be proof that no human could have made the predictions, and that plausibly a God made them. The Bible does not contain any prophecies of that quality.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Consider the following:

Newman on Prophecy as Miracle

Dr. Richard Carrier said:
Ezekiel 26:3-14 predicts that Tyre will be attacked by many nations, its walls torn down and its rubble cleared away, and it will be a bare rock. Then "out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets" and will never be rebuilt. The passage specifically predicts that Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon (26:7) will do this, and his army will throw the stones, timber and rubble into the sea--and there can be no mistake here, since Ezekiel says he will break into the city, not someone else: every verb from 26:7 to 11 is in the 3rd person singular, and the use of the 3rd person plural in 26:12 clearly refers to the troops--the "horsemen" (parash) and "charioteers" (rekeb), i.e. the "men entering the city"--in verses 10 and 11 which Nebuchadnezzar leads into the city. They are the first available plural antecedent of the verb in 26:12, and the whole passage is clearly about this invasion. Note as well that 26:10 includes chariots in the invading force--but Alexander (whom Newman claims fulfilled the prophecy) did not use chariots. They ceased to be used by Greeks and Macedonians after the 6th century B.C.

Ezekiel was a captive of Nebuchadnezzar since the sack of Jerusalem in 597 B.C. and this explains the prediction: he is issuing propaganda favoring his captor, no doubt to get on his good side, and Ezekiel could easily have intelligence about the king's plans since he would see the preparations. While Ezekiel died sometime after 571 B.C. (the year of his last prophecy, cf. 40:1) and his book was edited shortly after that, the Tyrian prophecy was made, so Ezekiel claims, in 586 B.C. (26:1). As it happens, Nebuchadnezzar began the siege of Tyre a year later. Tyre came to terms with him in 573 and he did not sack the city after all--forcing Ezekiel to retract his prediction (29:18) and instead predict a victory against Egypt after Nebuchadnezzar turned against that country. So what do we have here? We have a man who sees the world's most powerful army besieging a city and then predicts it will be taken and destroyed--hardly something he could not guess would happen. Yet even his guess failed, and so did the prediction! A failed prediction can hardly be a miracle.

What is Newman thinking? He obviously has never picked up a history book. He claims that Nebuchadnezzar "took" the city in 573 B.C., but we have no evidence of that. As far as we know, the city submitted to Babylonian rule without being sacked. Indeed, since it was a trade powerhouse with two outstanding naval ports, a conqueror would be a fool to destroy it (even Alexander's successors rebuilt it for that purpose). So Nebuchadnezzar surely got a sweet deal. Then Newman says that the inhabitants resettled inland during the siege, forcing Nebuchadnezzar to "settle for very little plunder" (219)--evidently his explanation for Ezekiel's retraction, although Newman never mentions this. Not only is this false (there had been a mainland suburb since before 800 B.C., and it was not called Tyre but Ushu), it is absurd: people are supposed to defeat Nebuchadnezzar by leaving an island city, with a huge wall, to resettle, with no fortifications, on the mainland, in open ground and with no port, while the Babylonian army apparently twiddles their thumbs? Newman is clearly the worst historian I've ever seen. Never mind that he has absolutely no basis for this claim--it is already extraordinarily absurd!

Newman goes on to claim that Alexander the Great's use of the mainland city's rubble to cross the strait fulfills the prophecy, but as I've already noted Ezekiel leaves no doubt that he means Nebuchadnezzar's men will do this, not some other guy centuries later. This is a classic case of retrofitting--indeed, it is worse than that, since the prophecy as stated actually forbids attributing this event to anyone else but Nebuchadnezzar. We might as well call the Israeli rocket attack on the ruins in the war of 1981 as a "fulfillment." Newman then says the mainland site was "scraped clean" by Alexander and has "never been restored" while "parts of the former island are used even today for spreading fishnets." This is all irrelevant. First, Ezekiel specifically says the nets and scraping will happen not on the mainland but "in the midst of the sea" (26:5, vs. 26:6, 8). Indeed, the mainland site was Ushu, not Tyre. The mainland site Ezekiel always refers to as among the "daughters" of Tyre, never as Tyre itself. And that is to be expected. Ushu was neither rich nor powerful, since it had no ports--unlike Tyre, which had two ports situated to allow annual sorties, making it one of the most powerful military and trade cities in the world at that time. It would be silly to make elaborate claims about the fall of "mighty" Ushu. Second, fishnets have no doubt always been stretched over bare rocks in every city with a fishing industry since the invention of the net, and they were no doubt stretched across the rocks of Tyre long before Ezekiel was even born. Finally, the city of Tyre was rebuilt immediately after Alexander's attack, and remained a powerhouse of trade for the next two thousand years. Was it ever a "bare rock"? I doubt it--and we have no evidence that it was.

What we see here is that Newman is so entirely wrong it is astonishing that his colleagues even let this inept chapter remain in the book. Was Tyre ever destroyed? No. It prospered under the successors of Alexander and under Roman rule and then under Islamic rule. The ruins, abandoned (but not destroyed, contrary to Ezekiel's predictions) in the Middle Ages, were badly damaged during Arab-Israeli Warfare in 1982, but the core of the city still had a population in 1991 of 70,000 (almost twice the population in Alexander's day), and the ruined sections are actually threatened by thriving urban growth. It is still there today, and it is still a major Lebanese financial center.

tyre.jpg

Ruins of the famous hot springs and a Roman arena at Tyre, with the modern city in the background (image from the Archivo Iconográfico).

As the picture above shows, Newman is full of it. This hardly looks like a "bare rock" to me, and the populated section of the city can be seen in the background, dispelling any notion that only a small fishing village remains. The 1999 Encyclopedia Britannica paints the true picture: "Excavations of the ruins have uncovered remains of the Greco-Roman, Crusader, Arab, and Byzantine civilizations, but most of the remains of the Phoenician period lie beneath the present town." Not only that, but among these ruins is one of the largest Roman hippodromes ever discovered--built in the 2nd century A.D., it seated 20,000. In other words, the city thrived under all these periods, and only became abandoned after the Arab conquest. Yet the majority of the original city is still heavily populated. So Ezekiel got it way wrong. Indeed, Ezekiel actually went on to predict that Tyre would be covered by the sea (26:19), and would never be found (26:21), two more incredibly false predictions. There is definitely no miracle here!
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Obviously, it would be a simple matter for an omniscient God to inspire prophecies that are far better than any Bible prophecy is. For example, if the Bible contained fulfilled prophecies regarding when, and where some natural disasters would occur, month, day, and year, and made the predictions centuries in advance, that would be proof that no human could have made the predictions, and that plausibly a God made them. The Bible does not contain any prophecies of that quality.

It's time for our religious thinking to get beyond belief in magic, I think.

The whole messiah-prophecy business, for example. Imagine what a better world it would be if we would all just set that aside.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
AmbiguousGuy said:
It's time for our religious thinking to get beyond belief in magic, I think.

The whole messiah-prophecy business, for example. Imagine what a better world it would be if we would all just set that aside.

Indeed, and even many conservative Christians seldom debate Bible prophecy since they believe that their time is better spent debating other topics.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Obviously, it would be a simple matter for an omniscient God to inspire prophecies that are far better than any Bible prophecy is. For example, if the Bible contained fulfilled prophecies regarding when, and where some natural disasters would occur, month, day, and year, and made the predictions centuries in advance, that would be proof that no human could have made the predictions, and that plausibly a God made them. The Bible does not contain any prophecies of that quality.

Well of course you understand that the Bible we have today was largely composed over centuries of time ...hence any predictions or fulfillment of them would be set to print long afterward...

For the people of the time.. -there were apparently prophets who warned them..at least that's what is recorded in the Bible.

In the Baha'i Faith we have some prophecies that were made some of which can found in wikipedia..

Bahá'í prophecies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
arthra said:
Well of course you understand that the Bible we have today was largely composed over centuries of time...hence any predictions or fulfillment of them would be set to print long afterward...

Oh sure, but regarding the Tyre prophecy, I believe that it was recorded, or at least predicted, before Nebuchadnezzar attacked Tyre. Many people would have known in advance that Nebuchadnezzar was going to attack Tyre since it had great riches, and since Nebuchadnezzar was a known conqueror. It was a good bet back then that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre, but that is not what happened. Ezekiel 26 definitely predicts that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre, and it calls him a "king of kings." Such a description does not indicate a king who will fail to make a predicted conquest.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Before I invest much time in this can you give me the primary reason you believe the prophecy invalid. I saw some accusations made by the person quoted but this prophecy is complicated and requires much work to evaluate. Can you give me your best reason for thinking it wrong and I will discuss it only and then we can move on to the rest.

What is the best evidence IYO that the TYRE prophecy is incorrect?

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/12/07/ezekiel-261-14-a-proof-text-for-inerrancy-or-fallibility-of-the-old-testament.aspxhttp://www.biblearchaeology.org/pos...ancy-or-fallibility-of-the-old-testament.aspxhttp://www.biblearchaeology.org/pos...ancy-or-fallibility-of-the-old-testament.aspx
http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-co...ze&chapter=026
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...1&version=NASB
http://www.konig.org/page8.htm
http://www.bibleevidences.com/prophecy.htm
http://www.equip.org/articles/fulfil...an-apologetic/
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
Well of course you understand that the Bible we have today was largely composed over centuries of time ...hence any predictions or fulfillment of them would be set to print long afterward...

For the people of the time.. -there were apparently prophets who warned them..at least that's what is recorded in the Bible.

In the Baha'i Faith we have some prophecies that were made some of which can found in wikipedia..

Bahá'í prophecies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Can you prove what you claimed about the Bible outside the 5% scribal error that is known and indicated in every modern Bible?
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
Can you prove what you claimed about the Bible outside the 5% scribal error that is known and indicated in every modern Bible?

Can you prove that the accurate transmissions of Bible texts reasonably proves that God inspired them?
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
Before I invest much time in this can you give me the primary reason you believe the prophecy invalid. I saw some accusations made by the person quoted but this prophecy is complicated and requires much work to evaluate. Can you give me your best reason for thinking it wrong and I will discuss it only and then we can move on to the rest.

For now, my first and second posts will do. You have not adequately refuted them.

1robin said:
What is the best evidence IYO that the TYRE prophecy is incorrect?

My first and second posts have some good evidence why there is not sufficient evidence for people to believe that God inspired the Tyre prophecy.

There is nothing complicated about the prophecy. Ezekiel, or whoever wrote it, believed that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre, which was a good bet at that time, but that did not happen.

1robin said:

I am not going to wade through all of that, but I will reply to anything that you quote from those links. I will, however, comment on what the first link says about "many nations." That was probably added after Nebuchadnezzar failed to defeat Tyre. Ezekiel surely believed that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre since 1) he knew that Nebuchadnezzar was a powerful king, and had conquered a number of cultures, 2) Tyre would have been a great prize for Nebuchadnezzer because of its riches, 3) Ezekiel called Nebuchadnezzar a "king of kings (you do not call a man a "king of kings" if you do not believe that his conquest will be successful), and 4) Ezekiel went to great lengths to discuss the extensive destruction that Nebuchadnezzar would cause for Tyre. There would have been no need for Ezekiel to have gone to those great lengths if he did not believe that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre.

Ezekiel 26:11-12 say:

"With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water."

History shows that Nebuchadnezzar did not make that happen. Such descriptions indicate a successful conquest, not a failed conquest. If any other religious book made such descriptions about a failed conquest, you would be using some of the same arguments that skeptics have used against the Tyre prophecy.

There is lots of valid evidence that Daniel could not have written all of the book of Daniel, and that the book of Daniel does not have any divinely inspired prophecies, but we can discuss that in a new thread if you wish.

Anyway, as I told you at another forum, if supernatural beings exist, you cannot reasonably prove that they did not inspire Bible prophecies.

Will you agree with me that if the Bible had better prophecies, more people would have become Christians? The Bible says that God does not want anyone to perish. If that is true, why didn't he inspire better prophecies? If he had inspired better prophecies, more people would have become Christians, with no possible harm to God, and with benefits for God, and with significant benefits for many humans.
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
For now, my first and second posts will do. You have not adequately refuted them.
I have not yet attempted to. If I responded to every claim in those two posts I would never finish typing. That is why I asked you for the best challenge they contained IYO. I need one or two things to evaluate and discuss (not 20). This prophesy is complex and even a point or two takes a while to hash out.



My first and second posts have some good evidence why there is not sufficient evidence for people to believe that God inspired the Tyre prophecy.
I familiar with every argument that exists against this prophecy. I however can't debate them all. Give me the best one or two.

There is nothing complicated about the prophecy. Ezekiel, or whoever wrote it, believed that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre, which was a good bet at that time, but that did not happen.
That is not what Ezekiel meant. It takes a while to show the consistency of pronoun shifts and what certain terms meant in the cultural language use of the time. There is far more going on here than you or what you copied realizes. If this is the best argument you have then just say so and I will refute it.



I am not going to wade through all of that, but I will reply to anything that you quote from those links. I will, however, comment on what the first link says about "many nations." That was probably added after Nebuchadnezzar failed to defeat Tyre. Ezekiel surely believed that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre since 1) he knew that Nebuchadnezzar was a powerful king, and had conquered a number of cultures, 2) Tyre would have been a great prize for Nebuchadnezzer because of its riches, 3) Ezekiel called Nebuchadnezzar a "king of kings (you do not call a man a "king of kings" if you do not believe that his conquest will be successful), and 4) Ezekiel went to great lengths to discuss the extensive destruction that Nebuchadnezzar would cause for Tyre. There would have been no need for Ezekiel to have gone to those great lengths if he did not believe that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre.

Ezekiel 26:11-12 say:

"With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water."
I understand if you do not want to read all of that. I told you this prophecy requires a lot of work to properly evaluate. I have defended it many times and no issue is simple. There are even other prophecies connected to these events in other books.

History shows that Nebuchadnezzar did not make that happen. Such descriptions indicate a successful conquest, not a failed conquest. If any other religious book made such descriptions about a failed conquest, you would be using some of the same arguments that skeptics have used against the Tyre prophecy.
Nebuchadnezzar did exactly what Ezekiel said he would. You must pay strict attention to what damage which pronoun is associated with. Like I said if this is where you want to fight it out just let me know.

There is lots of valid evidence that Daniel could not have written all of the book of Daniel, and that the book of Daniel does not have any divinely inspired prophecies, but we can discuss that in a new thread if you wish.
Come on brother. We have not scratched the surface of a very complex prophecy in one book and you wish to add random complaints against the partial uncertainty about authorship of a few additional books. Pick you poison. Daniel, Ezekiel, Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander, who was supposed to do what. I need a single target.


Anyway, as I told you at another forum, if supernatural beings exist, you cannot reasonably prove that they did not inspire Bible prophecies.
Holy crap now you repeating something I have already posted the answer to that is independent of the two you already brought up. You philosophy seems to throw a dump truck of crap at the wall and even if nothing stick load it up and do it again. My philosophy is that since we are dealing with the greatest issues known to mankind we should go slow, be concise, and resolve things one at a time.


Will you agree with me that if the Bible had better prophecies, more people would have become Christians? The Bible says that God does not want anyone to perish. If that is true, why didn't he inspire better prophecies? If he had inspired better prophecies, more people would have become Christians, with no possible harm to God, and with benefits for God, and with significant benefits for many humans.
How do you get better that 2500 correct predictions? On what basis is that not enough? On what basis can you even demand one? Prophecies were not guaranteed. Life was not guaranteed. Miracles were not guaranteed amounts or types. God owes no one anything. Every one of us deserves death if he exists. Yet we are given more prophecies than any other text in history, more patience than anyone in history has displayed, life we do not deserve and did not create, the most scrutinized book in human history, the only sinless being known, the most textually attested and profound human who ever lived, a faith practiced in every nation on earth (not one other faith can claim that), and nature it's self would be enough evidence as the bible says we are without excuse. You get all of this without being due anything and you yell foul. I just do not get it and until you produce a binding standard that can justly show God owed us more than we have recovered you are just wasting your time.

I do not want answers to any of this last part. I want one or at most two of the aspects where you think that prophecy failed. The best you got and we will see if they withstand scrutiny as the Bible has.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Obviously, it would be a simple matter for an omniscient God to inspire prophecies that are far better than any Bible prophecy is. For example, if the Bible contained fulfilled prophecies regarding when, and where some natural disasters would occur, month, day, and year, and made the predictions centuries in advance, that would be proof that no human could have made the predictions, and that plausibly a God made them. The Bible does not contain any prophecies of that quality.
ala The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch? :p
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Agnostic75 said:
For now, my first and second posts will do. You have not adequately refuted them.


1robin said:
I have not yet attempted to.

Until you do, you cannot claim that you have adequately refuted them.

1robin said:
If I responded to every claim in those two posts I would never finish typing.

But you posted four or five links yourself, and the first one was very long. In addition, my first two posts are not very long, and they have some very good arguments.

I am not concerned with how much time that you have, or how interested you are in replying to my arguments. I am primarily concerned with providing evidence for people to evaluate. Some topics require a lot more discussion than other topics do, and the Trye prophecy is one of them. My first and second posts have some good arguments. If you do not want to discuss them, that is fine.

Agnostic75 said:
There is nothing complicated about the prophecy. Ezekiel, or whoever wrote it, believed that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre, which was a good bet at that time, but that did not happen.

1robin said:
That is not what Ezekiel meant. It takes a while to show the consistency of pronoun shifts and what certain terms meant in the cultural language use of the time. There is far more going on here than you or what you copied realizes. If this is the best argument you have then just say so and I will refute it.

That is a good example of where I make some good arguments, and you know that they are good arguments, and instead of trying to adequately refute my arguments, you refuse to discuss them. There are not any doubts whatsoever that it was a good bet that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre. Consider the following:

The Chaldeans

jewishvirtuallibrary.org said:
After the fall of Assyrian power in Mesopotamia, the last great group of Semitic peoples dominated the area. Suffering mightily under the Assyrians, the city of Babylon finally rose up against its hated enemy, the city of Nineveh, the capital of the Assyrian empire, and burned it to the ground. The chief of the Babylonians was Nabopolassar; the Semites living in the northern part of Mesopotamia would never gain their independence again.

Nabopolassar was succeeded by his son, Nebuchadnezzar II (605-562 BC). Nebuchadnezzar was the equal of all the great Mesopotamian conquerors, from Sargon onwards; he not only prevented major powers such as Egypt and Syria from making inroads on his territory, he also conquered the Phoenicians and the state of Judah (586 BC), the southern Jewish kingdom that remained after the subjugation of Israel, the northern kingdom, by the Assyrians. In order to secure the territory of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar brought Jehoiachin and Zedekiah, the two kings of Judah (in succession) and held them in Babylon. In keeping with Assyrian practice, the "New Babylonians," or Chaldeans forced a large part of the Jewish population to relocate. Numbering possibly up to 10,000, these Jewish deportees were largely upper class people and craftspeople; this deportation marks the beginning of the Exile in Jewish history.

Under Nebuchadnezzar, the city of Babylon was rebuilt with great splendor; it would eventually become one of the most magnificent human
cities in the area of the Middle East and Mediterranean. But all was not perfect beneath the shining surface; there still existed a number of cities that were loyal to the Assyrians.

You obviously do not have any idea whatsoever what you are talking about.

Agnostic75 said:
I am not going to wade through all of that, but I will reply to anything that you quote from those links. I will, however, comment on what the first link says about "many nations." That was probably added after Nebuchadnezzar failed to defeat Tyre. Ezekiel surely believed that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre since 1) he knew that Nebuchadnezzar was a powerful king, and had conquered a number of cultures, 2) Tyre would have been a great prize for Nebuchadnezzer because of its riches, 3) Ezekiel called Nebuchadnezzar a "king of kings (you do not call a man a "king of kings" if you do not believe that his conquest will be successful), and 4) Ezekiel went to great lengths to discuss the extensive destruction that Nebuchadnezzar would cause for Tyre. There would have been no need for Ezekiel to have gone to those great lengths if he did not believe that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre.

Ezekiel 26:11-12 say:

"With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water."

1robin said:
I understand if you do not want to read all of that. I told you this prophecy requires a lot of work to properly evaluate.

I understand if you do not want to reply to far less evidence than you have asked me to read. I also understand if you do not want to reply to what I have already said. I have spent many months debating the Tyre prophecy at another website, and I am willing to do so again, even for years if necessary. However, it is reasonable for me to ask you to quote some excerpts from your links, just like you have asked me for some brief examples.

When you get some extra time, please reply to my four most recent replies to you in a thread at http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es/117299-right-religion-386.html#post3528956 at the General Religious Discussions forum.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Agnostic75 said:
History shows that Nebuchadnezzar did not make that happen. Such descriptions indicate a successful conquest, not a failed conquest. If any other religious book made such descriptions about a failed conquest, you would be using some of the same arguments that skeptics have used against the Tyre prophecy.

1robin said:
Nebuchadnezzar did exactly what Ezekiel said he would. You must pay strict attention to what damage which pronoun is associated with. Like I said if this is where you want to fight it out just let me know.

Nebuchadnezzar most certainly did not do exactly what Ezekiel for the reasons that I already stated. I said:

Agnostic75 said:
I am not going to wade through all of that, but I will reply to anything that you quote from those links. I will, however, comment on what the first link says about "many nations." That was probably added after Nebuchadnezzar failed to defeat Tyre. Ezekiel surely believed that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre since 1) he knew that Nebuchadnezzar was a powerful king, and had conquered a number of cultures, 2) Tyre would have been a great prize for Nebuchadnezzer because of its riches, 3) Ezekiel called Nebuchadnezzar a "king of kings (you do not call a man a "king of kings" if you do not believe that his conquest will be successful), and 4) Ezekiel went to great lengths to discuss the extensive destruction that Nebuchadnezzar would cause for Tyre. There would have been no need for Ezekiel to have gone to those great lengths if he did not believe that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre.

Ezekiel 26:11-12 say:

"With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water."

How about actually replying to all of what I said? After all, in the thread on homosexuality, which is a very long thread, you usually reply to everything that I say.

What pronouns are you talking about? I think that I have access to two skeptic Bible scholars who I can consult about whatever you say
about pronouns.

You said that the Tyre prophecy is complex, but it is quite simple to understand if it is assumed that the "many nations" part of the prophecy was added after it became apparent that Nebuchadnezzar was not going to defeat Tyre.

Even if Nebuchadnezzar did what Ezekiel said that he, and many nations would do, since all kingdoms eventually fall, and since Nebuchadnezzar was a powerful conqueror, it obviously would not have taken any divine knowledge to accurately predict what Ezekiel predicted. I know that you will eventually discuss "the spreading of nets," and "like a bare rock," but you will not get anywhere with those arguments either.

Agnostic75 said:
There is lots of valid evidence that Daniel could not have written all of the book of Daniel, and that the book of Daniel does not have any divinely inspired prophecies, but we can discuss that in a new thread if you wish.

1robin said:
Come on brother. We have not scratched the surface of a very complex prophecy in one book and you wish to add random complaints against the partial uncertainty about authorship of a few additional books. Pick you poison. Daniel, Ezekiel, Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander, who was supposed to do what. I need a single target.

I do not wish to discuss the book of Daniel in this thread. I only mentioned it since it is an excellent example of a book that was not written only by the claimed author, and could not possibly have been written by only one man. If you wish, I will start a new thread on the book of Daniel. It only takes one false prophecy to call all other Bible prophecies into question.

Then we can move on to Isaiah chapter 53 in another new thread that I could start. I can easily predict in advance that you will not get anywhere debating Bible prophecy, and will not convince one single skeptic that there are any divinely inspired Bible prophecies. Some of the best arguments about Isaiah 53 are made by Jewish scholars, and Jewish amateurs. William Lane Craig has written some articles about Bible prophecy, but as far as I know, he seldom, or never debates it in public. If that is the case, that would indicate that he knows that it would be a difficult topic for him to debate with certain skeptic experts.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Agnostic75 said:
There is lots of valid evidence that Daniel could not have written all of the book of Daniel, and that the book of Daniel does not have any divinely inspired prophecies, but we can discuss that in a new thread if you wish.

1robin said:
Come on brother. We have not scratched the surface of a very complex prophecy in one book and you wish to add random complaints against the partial uncertainty about authorship of a few additional books.

I am not asking you to discuss the book of Daniel now, although I will at least tell you that John J. Collins, who is one the leading, if not the leading scholar on the book of Daniel in the world, dates it to around 165 B.C. I can eventually start a new thread on that topic.

The Tyre prophecy could easily have been written by more than one author, and it could have been revised later after it became obvious that Nebuchadnezzar would not defeat Tyre. With the potential of multiple authors over several centuries, all kinds of scenarios are reasonably possible.

Of course, you are wasting your time discussing any Bible prophecy since I told you at another forum that if good, and evil supernatural beings exists, no mere fallible, imperfect human would be able to tell which ones are which, and which ones are the most powerful. Paul says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, and deceives many people, but Paul could not have known which supernatural beings are which, or even that any good supernatural beings exist. You said that God has provided Christians with ways to tell who is who, but that is simply ridiculous since that would only be true if 1) good supernatural beings exist, and 2) if good supernatural beings are more powerful than evil supernatural beings are. You have not reasonably proven either one of those claims.

The Scriptures that God has provided Christians to tell the difference between good and evil supernatural beings could just as easily have been inspired by evil supernatural beings as by God, and as I said, there might not be any good supernatural beings.

So, no matter how long you spend debating Bible prophecies, I will always have a valid argument against them since evil supernatural beings who have enough power could easily predict the future, and deceive many people. If you refuse to discuss this issue, that is fine, but my arguments will still be valid.
 
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fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Of course, you are wasting your time discussing any Bible prophecy since I told you at another forum that if good, and evil supernatural beings exists, no mere fallible, imperfect human would be able to tell which ones are which, and which ones are the most powerful. Paul says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, and deceives many people, but Paul could not have known which supernatural beings are which, or even that any good supernatural beings exist. You said that God has provided Christians with ways to tell who is who, but that is simply ridiculous since that would only be true if 1) good supernatural beings exist, and 2) if good supernatural beings are more powerful than evil supernatural beings are. You have not reasonably proven either one of those claims.

The Scriptures that God has provided Christians to tell the difference between good and evil supernatural beings could just as easily have been inspired by evil supernatural beings as by God, and as I said, there might not be any good supernatural beings.

So, no matter how long you spend debating Bible prophecies, I will always have a valid argument against them since evil supernatural beings who have enough power could easily predict the future, and deceive many people. If you refuse to discuss this issue, that is fine, but my arguments will still be valid.
Of course you are right about this. But nevertheless I would like to hear how some of the defenders of this prophecy defend it.



Yes I suppose that Satan, or some other evil supernatural entity could have inspired accurate predictions, but I don't think that is the case here. And I suppose that Satan could have inspired false prophecies as well. But I see no need to resort to any supernatural explanations for anything I see in the Bible.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
fantôme profane said:
Of course you are right about this. But nevertheless I would like to hear how some of the defenders of this prophecy defend it.

Of course, and so would I.

fantôme profane said:
Yes I suppose that Satan, or some other evil supernatural entity could have inspired accurate predictions, but I don't think that is the case here. And I suppose that Satan could have inspired false prophecies as well. But I see no need to resort to any supernatural explanations for anything I see in the Bible.

In many cases, supernatural explanations are not necessary, but sometimes they are since millions of Christians will not be bothered by any other kinds of arguments.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Until you do, you cannot claim that you have adequately refuted them.
Until you posts an argument or two alone, I will not attempt to. Until I attempt to I will not nor have I claimed anything has been refuted. If you ever do this they will be.



But you posted four or five links yourself, and the first one was very long. In addition, my first two posts are not very long, and they have some very good arguments.
Are you going to refuse to post your best argument or two in order that they will not be destroyed? I have destroyed every argument you have made in two additional threads in detail. However I am not doing so in a third thread until you pick out one or two of the best.

I am not concerned with how much time that you have, or how interested you are in replying to my arguments. I am primarily concerned with providing evidence for people to evaluate. Some topics require a lot more discussion than other topics do, and the Trye prophecy is one of them. My first and second posts have some good arguments. If you do not want to discuss them, that is fine.
You will do as requested or I will not respond. You are the most prolific and redundant poster I have ever seen. I must limit what is talked about. Volume is substituted for substance by most of those from your side. I want to resolve things not reply to everything that can be thrown at the wall over and over again. Give me your best or the latest pile of rhetoric you copied from somewhere will not be addressed.




That is a good example of where I make some good arguments, and you know that they are good arguments, and instead of trying to adequately refute my arguments, you refuse to discuss them. There are not any doubts whatsoever that it was a good bet that Nebuchadnezzar would defeat Tyre. Consider the following:
Believe me and between us I am the only one who could possibly know. Nothing you have ever said has intimidated me. Most of it is just repeats of things that had no teeth the first time. There was almost no possibility Nebuchadnezzar could have defeated the Island citadel. He had no navy and he had no adequate siege equipment to even attempt it. I see no evidence he ever intended to. It took the mighty Alexander so long with a navy and with the greatest siege equipment ever built (of it's type) that he almost gave it up several times. This was an absurd claim.

You obviously do not have any idea whatsoever what you are talking about.
Well I certainly have no idea what you are even talking about. What did the latest thing you copied prove wrong about anything I said? I did not see anything in it that has anything to do with anything in that prophecy.





I understand if you do not want to reply to far less evidence than you have asked me to read. I also understand if you do not want to reply to what I have already said. I have spent many months debating the Tyre prophecy at another website, and I am willing to do so again, even for years if necessary. However, it is reasonable for me to ask you to quote some excerpts from your links, just like you have asked me for some brief examples.
I don't know what this means. This is not rocket science. Take a few of the best contentions you have copied from someone else and we will resolve them. If not then I have no need to do this a third time.

When you get some extra time, please reply to my four most recent replies to you in a thread at http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es/117299-right-religion-386.html#post3528956 at the General Religious Discussions forum.
I have over and over again addressed the same claims. I have went back and addressed referenced claims. I have not seen an original claim you have made in quite some time. I have gone far beyond what the quality of your argumentation demands. I no longer feel any necessity to do so. Post what I asked for concerning Tyre or this debate will not occur.
 
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