The U.S.-Centric, Hyperbolic Political Game and "Trump Is the Worst POTUS Ever"

[Debater Slayer]

In the last few days, I have come across the claim that Trump is the "worst POTUS ever" several times. The claim, while originating from understandable frustration, is as unfortunate as it is emotionally and politically charged--not to mention so U.S.-centric that it is at least partially blinded to the effects of the policies of Trump's predecessors.

As far as I can see, Trump may well be the worst president of a developed country in the last decade. But to say that he is the worst POTUS ever overlooks the gigantic elephant in the room known as George W. Bush--a war criminal whose administration started two wars that resulted in hundreds of thousands of innocent casualties, instigated the torture in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, and practically destroyed Iraq and Afghanistan in ways that both are still recovering from to this day.

This is not even a matter of opinion: by what possible objective criteria is Trump worse than Bush Jr.? As contemptible and morally bankrupt as he is, a death toll of nearly half a million people is hard to outdo, even for someone like him. To say that what he has done up to this point outweighs the far-reaching crimes of Bush is to potentially both dismiss the scale and the seriousness of the latter.

Which also brings me to the next point: U.S.-centric worldviews that don't have enough consideration for the effects of American policies abroad are quite harmful. Trump may have abysmal foreign policy, but it is still nowhere near as destructive and bloodthirsty as Bush's. Perhaps he is indeed worse than Bush when it comes to domestic affairs, but is that enough to say he is the worst POTUS ever overall? I definitely don't think saying so would be very responsible whether intellectually or ethically.

It seems to me that a few defining traits of the Trump era are appeals to emotion, partisan employment of superlatives (e.g., calling Trump "the best" or "the worst" POTUS ever, or his own emotional rants on Twitter), and prioritizing political points and demagoguery over facts and real-world consequences. Ironically, for at least a subset of the people confidently asserting that Trump is the "worst president ever," all of these seem to be contributing factors.

Make no mistake: both are criminals and moral failures, but let's not for one moment forget that only one of them is responsible for half a million unnecessary deaths, torture of thousands, and the destruction of two countries.

 

[The Hammer]

I can think they are both awful president's. Bush jr because of the lying and starting a war to finish his daddies business in the middle east; and Trump because he is morally bankrupt, and endangering the nation as a whole.

It may be US centric, but I'd take a president that acts on bad info and gets found out, to one who won't even listen to the experts around him, and is endangering the lives of our own citizens.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I can think they are both awful president's. Bush jr because of the lying and starting a war to finish his daddies business in the middle east; and Trump because he is morally bankrupt, and endangering the nation as a whole.

It may be US centric, but I'd take a president that acts on bad info and gets found out, to one who won't even listen to the experts around him, and is endangering the lives of our own citizens.

Is a president's endangering and taking the lives of hundreds of thousands abroad any more acceptable than endangering the lives of his own citizens, or vice versa? My answer is no to both questions, and I don't think a choice should need to be made between the two anyway.

 

[The Hammer]

Is a president's endangering and taking the lives of hundreds of thousands abroad any more acceptable than endangering the lives of his own citizens, or vice versa? My answer is no to both questions, and I don't think a choice should need to be made between the two anyway.

Shouldn't need to be made between the two no, you are right. And I vehemently opposed both president's (and Obama's war mongering). But as self centered as it is, I care less about other countries than I do my own citizens. This boils down to the fact that I don't think we can "help" (which is what these wars were "supposed" to do) anyone, without insuring we are taking care of our own first.

It's similar to my thoughts of you can't help/take care of another person, if you aren't first taking care of your own physical/mental health.

Would I rather us use diplomacy instead of starting wars, yes. Which is how I try to vote.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As far as I can see, Trump may well be the worst president of a developed country in the last decade. But to say that he is the worst POTUS ever overlooks the gigantic elephant in the room known as George W. Bush--a war criminal whose administration started two wars that resulted in hundreds of thousands of innocent casualties, instigated the torture in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, and practically destroyed Iraq and Afghanistan in ways that both are still recovering from to this day.

That is, indeed, an important and fully justified perspective.

At the same time, when comparing Bush and Trump I distinguish between the worst President and the worst Presidency. Were it not for his narcissistic isolationism, I have no doubt but that Trump would have easily matched Bush in the atrocities sweepstakes. Instead, he settles for disparaging women, mocking the handicapped, waging war on immigrants, and promoting racism and xenophobia while stroking the likes of Putin, Erdogan, Kim-Jong-un, Netanyahu and Xi Jinping. I hate to think what todays world would look like if Trump had been President in the immediate wake of 9/11.

 

[Quetzal]

I think I misunderstood the post. Oopsie. I removed my post as it is a bit of a distraction. Apologies @Debater Slayer.

 

[Debater Slayer]

That is, indeed, an important and fully justified perspective.

At the same time, when comparing Bush and Trump I distinguish between the worst President and the worst Presidency. Were it not for his narcissistic isolationism, I have no doubt but that Trump would have easily matched Bush in the atrocities sweepstakes. Instead, he settles for disparaging women, mocking the handicapped and promoting racism and xenophobia while stroking the likes of Putin, Erdogan, Kim-Jong-un, Netanyahu and Xi Jinping. I hate to think what todays world would look like if Trump had been President in the immediate wake of 9/11.

Perhaps his narcissistic isolationism has proved an unforeseen boon within the larger context of his policies. I have little doubt that the man is enough of an impulsive lunatic to use nukes if it were up to him and he felt it would further his standing among his base.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think I misunderstood the post. Oopsie. I removed my post as it is a bit of a distraction. Apologies @Debater Slayer.

No worries. I will delete mine as well since it quotes your deleted post.

 

[bobhikes]

In the last few days, I have come across the claim that Trump is the "worst POTUS ever" several times. The claim, while originating from understandable frustration, is as unfortunate as it is emotionally and politically charged--not to mention so U.S.-centric that it is at least partially blinded to the effects of the policies of Trump's predecessors.
.

Trumps death count is rather high as well but its passive not active and also not easily quantified. There is no doubt though that his foreign policy. Immigration policy and covid response has cause high loss of life and continues today.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Good post. Obviously he's a bad president but far from the worst of all time.

 

[sun rise]

As far as Afghanistan goes, the attacks there were as a result of us being attacked by them. Self-defense is fully justified. Bush botched the aftermath of the war but I fully supported then and support today us taking action against a brutal aggressive fanatical regime who was subjecting 1/2 of its population to an unmitigated horror show.

Make no mistake: both are criminals and moral failures, but let's not for one moment forget that only one of them is responsible for half a million unnecessary deaths, torture of thousands

Given what is happening with COVID-19, his actions might exceed the death toll attributable to Dubya. Because of his actions the death toll in the US is terrible but I believe it's contributed to the death toll outside the US as well.

stroking the likes of Putin, Erdogan, Kim-Jong-un, Netanyahu and Xi Jinping.

Trump is an enabler of dictators. He might not have the direct death toll, but he has given aid and comfort to those who should not be promoted.

I have little doubt that the man is enough of an impulsive lunatic to use nukes if it were up to him and he felt it would further his standing among his base.

Bingo. That utter lack of morality is why I rank him as worst.

 

[Revoltingest]

In the last few days, I have come across the claim that Trump is the "worst POTUS ever" several times. The claim, while originating from understandable frustration, is as unfortunate as it is emotionally and politically charged--not to mention so U.S.-centric that it is at least partially blinded to the effects of the policies of Trump's predecessors.

As far as I can see, Trump may well be the worst president of a developed country in the last decade. But to say that he is the worst POTUS ever overlooks the gigantic elephant in the room known as George W. Bush--a war criminal whose administration started two wars that resulted in hundreds of thousands of innocent casualties, instigated the torture in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, and practically destroyed Iraq and Afghanistan in ways that both are still recovering from to this day.

This is not even a matter of opinion: by what possible objective criteria is Trump worse than Bush Jr.? As contemptible and morally bankrupt as he is, a death toll of nearly half a million people is hard to outdo, even for someone like him. To say that what he has done up to this point outweighs the far-reaching crimes of Bush is to potentially both dismiss the scale and the seriousness of the latter.

Which also brings me to the next point: U.S.-centric worldviews that don't have enough consideration for the effects of American policies abroad are quite harmful. Trump may have abysmal foreign policy, but it is still nowhere near as destructive and bloodthirsty as Bush's. Perhaps he is indeed worse than Bush when it comes to domestic affairs, but is that enough to say he is the worst POTUS ever overall? I definitely don't think saying so would be very responsible whether intellectually or ethically.

It seems to me that a few defining traits of the Trump era are appeals to emotion, partisan employment of superlatives (e.g., calling Trump "the best" or "the worst" POTUS ever, or his own emotional rants on Twitter), and prioritizing political points and demagoguery over facts and real-world consequences. Ironically, for at least a subset of the people confidently asserting that Trump is the "worst president ever," all of these seem to be contributing factors.

Make no mistake: both are criminals and moral failures, but let's not for one moment forget that only one of them is responsible for half a million unnecessary deaths, torture of thousands, and the destruction of two countries.

It's like we share one brain!
Dubya is on my list of really bad ones.
(Does this make you feel dirty?)
He certainly does have great potential to be the worst.
I'm thinking of that almost-war with Iran.

 

[February-Saturday]

Trump has pushed the entire country uncomfortably close to fascism. If America becomes fascist within the next 16 years, it will almost undoubtedly be because of Trump. At that point, the death toll will be far greater and far more abominable than what we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Trump's foreign actions might not be as bad as Bush, but it's possible that the damage he has done to domestic policy and American culture will be further reaching and lead to something much worse in the future if it goes without being properly addressed. That would, I think, make him worse than Bush and it's important to keep that possibility in mind.

 

[Revoltingest]

Trump has pushed the entire country uncomfortably close to fascism. If America becomes fascist within the next 16 years, it will almost undoubtedly be because of Trump. At that point, the death toll will be far greater and far more abominable than what we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Trump's foreign actions might not be as bad as Bush, but it's possible that the damage he has done to domestic policy and American culture will be further reaching and lead to something much worse in the future if it goes without being properly addressed. That would, I think, make him worse than Bush and it's important to keep that possibility in mind.

In what ways have we become more fascist?

 

[Yazata]

In the last few days, I have come across the claim that Trump is the "worst POTUS ever" several times.

In my opinion Barack Hussein Obama qualifies for that title. Why? The way that he politicized the civil service, and particularly the police and intelligence agencies against political enemies. (Compared to that, Watergate was nothing.) That's the biggest threat to American democracy in the history of the country. Frankly, I'm not sure that American democracy, and with it the fate of Western civilization, will survive the Obama legacy. We are headed towards becoming a sham-democracy something like Putin's Russia, where "elections" are still held but the security services and the government nomenklatura ensure that only candidates that they favor can win.

The claim, while originating from understandable frustration, is as unfortunate as it is emotionally and politically charged--not to mention so U.S.-centric that it is at least partially blinded to the effects of the policies of Trump's predecessors.

As far as I can see, Trump may well be the worst president of a developed country in the last decade. But to say that he is the worst POTUS ever overlooks the gigantic elephant in the room known as George W. Bush

The target of your political trolling becomes apparent.

Of course Barack Hussein Obama wasn't without fault in that regard, along with the Europeans (who somehow believe that their brown-anal-extrusions don't stink, despite starting two world wars in 21 years that almost brought civilization crashing down). Recall that Hillary and company (including Cameron and Sarkozy) engineered the overthrow of Qaddhafi in Libya, then washed their hands and walked away, leaving Libya a failed state. They supported the overthrow of Yemen's dictator, leaving that country another failed state. They helped engineer the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak in Egypt, then watched that country be taken over by the Muslim Brotherhood. Then they threw their weight behind the Syrian rebels, dooming that country to a decade long civil war and enabled the rise of the "Islamic State". Not exactly a picture of glowing success.

President Trump inherited the campaign against ISIS and brought it to a successful conclusion. Apart from that, he's avoided involving the US in any new foreign wars. And he's announced the end of the kind of politics that led to the foreign wars of the Bush and Obama eras, the idea that the United States is somehow the policeman of the planet, somehow burdened with the responsibility for straightening out every foreign country where injustice seems to some activist to prevail. As President Trump so memorably said, he is the President of the United States, not the President of the World.

--a war criminal whose administration started two wars that resulted in hundreds of thousands of innocent casualties

I'm not convinced that hundreds of thousands of "innocent" casualties can be blamed on the United States. They came as a result of locals fighting locals in never ending civil war. We didn't kill those people, they killed each other.

practically destroyed Iraq and Afghanistan in ways that both are still recovering from to this day.

Afghanistan was always pretty much destroyed. Most of it ruled by the Taliban, locked in a civil war with the Northern Alliance. (If you look up "hellhole" in a dictionary, it's probably a picture of Afghanistan. It's always been a place where a person's life is brutal and short.) But admittedly, things were quieter domestically in Iraq before Saddam Hussein was overthrown. There's a lesson to be learned there -- namely that thug dictators aren't the worst things that can happen in those countries. Saddam probably should have been left in power because he kept an effective lid on his own people.

But that was a lesson that the Obama administration never learned, or forgot during the dreamy idealism of the "Arab Spring", witness all the thug dictators that they tried to eliminate in the Middle East, at terrible cost in a number of countries.

Make no mistake: both are criminals and moral failures, but let's not for one moment forget that only one of them is responsible for half a million unnecessary deaths, torture of thousands, and the destruction of two countries.

I'm not convinced that you and those like you are in any position to play moral judge. It would be more helpful if you proposed some policies that you think would be better.

As for me, I'm very much a Trump supporter. I wouldn't say that he is perfect (who is?) but I do agree with virtually all of his policies. His biggest defect in my opinion is that he isn't the most effective at bringing them to fruition. I can easily imagine abandoning him for somebody else, but only somebody who seems more effective at realizing the same sort of agenda. At this point I see virtually 0% chance that would be any democrat.

 

[tytlyf]

In what ways have we become more fascist?

Notice more of these?

 

[Revoltingest]

Notice more of these?

View attachment 41063

Posting a generic picture doesn't answer the question
about specific examples of Americastan becoming fascist.
It's fun to cry that the sky is falling.
But show me where it's landed.

 

[tytlyf]

Posting a generic picture doesn't answer the question
about specific examples of Americastan becoming fascist.
It's fun to cry that the sky is falling.
But show me where it's landed.

Sorry you can't see it. I really don't think you want to either.
Guess who also never saw it coming? The German people.

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.'

 

[Revoltingest]

Sorry you can't see it. I really don't think you want to either.
Guess who also never saw it coming? The German people.

"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.'

If you cannot support the claim with detail,
then perhaps you see a mirage.

 

[Curious George]

In the last few days, I have come across the claim that Trump is the "worst POTUS ever" several times. The claim, while originating from understandable frustration, is as unfortunate as it is emotionally and politically charged--not to mention so U.S.-centric that it is at least partially blinded to the effects of the policies of Trump's predecessors.

As far as I can see, Trump may well be the worst president of a developed country in the last decade. But to say that he is the worst POTUS ever overlooks the gigantic elephant in the room known as George W. Bush--a war criminal whose administration started two wars that resulted in hundreds of thousands of innocent casualties, instigated the torture in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, and practically destroyed Iraq and Afghanistan in ways that both are still recovering from to this day.

This is not even a matter of opinion: by what possible objective criteria is Trump worse than Bush Jr.? As contemptible and morally bankrupt as he is, a death toll of nearly half a million people is hard to outdo, even for someone like him. To say that what he has done up to this point outweighs the far-reaching crimes of Bush is to potentially both dismiss the scale and the seriousness of the latter.

Which also brings me to the next point: U.S.-centric worldviews that don't have enough consideration for the effects of American policies abroad are quite harmful. Trump may have abysmal foreign policy, but it is still nowhere near as destructive and bloodthirsty as Bush's. Perhaps he is indeed worse than Bush when it comes to domestic affairs, but is that enough to say he is the worst POTUS ever overall? I definitely don't think saying so would be very responsible whether intellectually or ethically.

It seems to me that a few defining traits of the Trump era are appeals to emotion, partisan employment of superlatives (e.g., calling Trump "the best" or "the worst" POTUS ever, or his own emotional rants on Twitter), and prioritizing political points and demagoguery over facts and real-world consequences. Ironically, for at least a subset of the people confidently asserting that Trump is the "worst president ever," all of these seem to be contributing factors.

Make no mistake: both are criminals and moral failures, but let's not for one moment forget that only one of them is responsible for half a million unnecessary deaths, torture of thousands, and the destruction of two countries.

It is an election year. It is a game that the U.S. plays with each incumbent president.

Were you to look back through the decades you would see claims about each incumbent president being the worst ever. Some may qualify such statements and give more specifics, but others do not.

For the majority of people decisions are emotional. Hence emotional rhetoric abounds in an attempt to sway others.